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im2randomghgh wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:not sure, didn't read the whole thread but: Did anyone point out the reality of the story?

Yes the GK mercilessly slaughtered the innocent Sisters... because they basically had to. They mixed the blood of said sisters with anointing oils and unguents as they needed the blood of "Pure and innocent" peoples to banish the daemons, it was not "for fun"; but rather out of grim(-dark?) necessity.

the concept has actually been around in many religions throughout human history; in order to appease the god(s) or banish the evil the blood of an innocent must be used(many times the full sacrifice of the innocents life, but sometimes just a small amount of blood is needed).

Yes, but before this dex, GK didn't need anything to help them remain pure, now we know they CAN be corrupted, they just haven't been yet. And human rarely dictate rubbing the blood of said sacrifice all over your body.

Not true at all; they have always required the devotionals, oils, accoutrement, etc, to banish daemons.

"Anointing" oneself does not mean Smearing/rubbing the unguent all over your body, often a dab with do(as all the remaining sisters had to be sacrificed, I am guessing they did use quite a bit of blood/Knight, but still)

Also it was quite common for many early religions to anoint themselves in sacrificial blood(no matter the source); Ash Wednesday still has the Anointing of, well Ash; and baptismal is the Anointing of holy Water(some sects still do the full submersion). Depending on the need some Aztec rituals had a full on blood-bath(literal use), As did some Pictish/pre-christian Gaelic/Druidic rituals, I believe there was at least 1 Vedic Ritual that requires blood; then you can get into the Central American Catholics that re-create(fully, in detail) the "stations".

BaronIveagh wrote:I havnt't read the most recent Tau codex fluff, but IIRC the only Tau + Genocide was the non-canon ending of Soulstorm.


@Sillie: I've never heard that one before, what source?


Watch: the Next Codex: Tau, they'll rule Half Ultima Segmentum and be trotting Slaanesh around on a leash. If Matt Ward writes it, that is....

its from one of the Ultramarine novels (i think), the numbers i used was just an example but there has always been a huge decline in humans on tau conqured worlds, couse of "birth controll".

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, where is this forced sterilization program fluff from? And doesn't that directly conflict with the Tau having set up Human colonies for the Gue'vesa Auxiliaries?

Most human world's are sterilized by the Tau (which isn't true genocide, since only potential humans are being killed), and a few worlds set aside for the Gue'vesa, since the Tau like having the taller, stronger, more melee capable humans fight alongside them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:not sure, didn't read the whole thread but: Did anyone point out the reality of the story?

Yes the GK mercilessly slaughtered the innocent Sisters... because they basically had to. They mixed the blood of said sisters with anointing oils and unguents as they needed the blood of "Pure and innocent" peoples to banish the daemons, it was not "for fun"; but rather out of grim(-dark?) necessity.

the concept has actually been around in many religions throughout human history; in order to appease the god(s) or banish the evil the blood of an innocent must be used(many times the full sacrifice of the innocents life, but sometimes just a small amount of blood is needed).

Yes, but before this dex, GK didn't need anything to help them remain pure, now we know they CAN be corrupted, they just haven't been yet. And human rarely dictate rubbing the blood of said sacrifice all over your body.

Not true at all; they have always required the devotionals, oils, accoutrement, etc, to banish daemons.

"Anointing" oneself does not mean Smearing/rubbing the unguent all over your body, often a dab with do(as all the remaining sisters had to be sacrificed, I am guessing they did use quite a bit of blood/Knight, but still)

Also it was quite common for many early religions to anoint themselves in sacrificial blood(no matter the source); Ash Wednesday still has the Anointing of, well Ash; and baptismal is the Anointing of holy Water(some sects still do the full submersion). Depending on the need some Aztec rituals had a full on blood-bath(literal use), As did some Pictish/pre-christian Gaelic/Druidic rituals, I believe there was at least 1 Vedic Ritual that requires blood; then you can get into the Central American Catholics that re-create(fully, in detail) the "stations".

They have always used the unguents and such, but before this it was their psyker powers that kept the corruption out. Omnibus.Read it.

You all realize that blood doesn't work that way? Pure blood doesn't really protect you from deamons. Of course if the Grey Knights say it will protect them, then its all good right? All they have to do is say it.

So many people keep saying the sisters arn't that pure and innocent. They say the sisters will burn heritics and wipe out massive amounts of life just to be sure, that they're really no better than the Grey Knights. If all that is true, than how can the sisters yield innocent blood? Many of the pagan and early Christian practices mentioned sacrifice somthing innocent. Children, virgins, and in the case of Christianity, a lamb.

Either Sisters are innocent, virtuous paragons of all that is good in humanity, or they are not and their blood would not be innocent, and the GK's ritual would fail.

Indeed, Sisters are, to quote 40k: "Shining examples of all that is good about humanity", and "the pinnacle of faith, devotion, and purity".

Sisters are most assuredly pure, quite possibly moreso than Grey Knights now.

im2randomghgh wrote:Most human world's are sterilized by the Tau (which isn't true genocide

The Czech Roma would strongly disagree with you, as would the Center for Holocaust and Genocide and dozens of other modern organizations that try to stop genocide across the world.

Forced sterilization is most assuredly considered a form of genocide.

You are killing off a race through forcing them not to be able to produce children. Whether you kill them off immediately or kill them off through forced sterilization is irrelevant-- it's still genocide, which is "systematic killing of a racial or cultural group".

Tau are just as genocidal as humans are in 40k.

That's it, I am going to find a way to speak with someone at GW (not a fething clerk, I want Jervis or one of his pals) and ask them, WHAT THE , why did you let this through.

This is bullsheit, I am at a loss of words!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sleeping giant? Have you not heard of the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Didn't that come from the Tau trying to turn Imperial planets away from the Imperium?

The Explorator fleet that was going to extinguish the Tau when they were primitives, just cuz?

The Imperium was going to exterminate the Tau because it wanted the planet and its resources. If the Tau came across a resource richplanet with feral Orks on it that are absolutely no threat whatsoever to them, what do you think they would do? Pass on by, or exterminate the Orks?

The Imperium that never negociates, ever?

They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?

So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else.

'They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?


So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else. '

The imperium has a bad habit of allying with an alien race, then exterminating them afterwards. I can't thing of any occasion other than some rather old fluff regarding the eldar where they negotiated with a race and actually meant it.

The Imperium couldn't care less about saving lives. Get off the Big E fanclub horse. They are a totalitarian regime ruled by some not very nice people in the name of a corpse. They combine the worst aspects of the spanish inquisition, ancient rome and nazi germany.

No one expects that All Roads lead to the Nazi Inquisition!

If the GK are so dedicated to the cause then they should just bring a sister or two on every campaign. They don't seem like the type to leave things to chance. And if really just takes a few drops to annoint then a couple of sisters-made-chapter serfs would suffice.

Or we can all just admit they they are Khorne worshippers.

Also I should probably throw out I've always hated GK and really liked SOB, so maybe I sound a little biased :p

It's worth adding that "The Bloodtide" is, in fact, not a creation of Matt Ward.

Andy Hoare introduced the term in his novel "The Hunt for Voldorius". It wasn't described, at all, except being something an Alpha Legion Lord was trying to "awaken".

Anvildude wrote:No one expects that All Roads lead to the Nazi Inquisition!

ROFL!

Somehow I don't think Andy had Sisters as purer then GKs, however.

This thread is still going? Im suprised! Well..that was a lie. Not really suprised.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sleeping giant? Have you not heard of the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Didn't that come from the Tau trying to turn Imperial planets away from the Imperium?

The Explorator fleet that was going to extinguish the Tau when they were primitives, just cuz?

The Imperium was going to exterminate the Tau because it wanted the planet and its resources. If the Tau came across a resource richplanet with feral Orks on it that are absolutely no threat whatsoever to them, what do you think they would do? Pass on by, or exterminate the Orks?

The Imperium that never negociates, ever?

They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?

So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else.

The Imperium does not negociate, in fact, nogociating with xenos is heresy, and can bring the Inquisition into the picture. Whenever they negociate, it is just manipulation at it's worst, essentially they're saying: Wait here while we kill the Nids, then we'll break you like ants, okay?

The gulf crusade was before most of the Tau ruled former IoM planets were taking. The Tau reclaimed their lost planets, and started annexing worlds, in the wake of the crusade.

The Gue'vesa are loyal to the Tau Empire, so no, it is NOT genocide. If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide?

The feral Orks would pose a threat, especially since the Orks have their *special* method of reproduction.

I still don't have my cookie.

I think if your government forced one race of peoples to go have a vasectomy it would be the slowest acting genocide ever. Of course as far as I know there's no evidence of Tau doing any such thing so it's a moot point. I really hope they keep Tau as good guys and none of this insidious grimdarkness nonsense. Tau are unique because they are good and naive, makes 40k a whole lot more interesting that way.

'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

Also, I agree that the Tau should not be altered, since they are (whether they are evil or not) the least evil faction, and angry Tau performing torture and killing for fun would weaken the 40k universe considerably.

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

Except the problem is... where is this taking place? I can't find anything other then some vague insinuations in Soulstorm about it.

im2randomghgh wrote:exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

And if that condition is not acceptable?

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

And if that condition is not acceptable?

'

If that's not acceptable, then it is war. But think about it in terms of the other factions. IoM wouldn't ask, they'd blow gak up, just to be safe. Orks would attack. Always. Nids would devour. Eldar would cleanse. DE would slave-raid. Necrons-they do their thing. Chaos...Chaos. Slaughter, torture, mutate, rot. Not pleasant. Castration is by FAR the best option there...not that i'm eager to have mine chopped off or anything...

HEy mate get back on topic.
Grey Knights are not evil, and that piece of lore does not exist.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

... the alternative of which is to be killed.

It's coerced. Deal with it, Tau love genocide, they practice it all the time.

They're evil little cowfishbirds and everyone but you knows it

Melissia wrote:Once again, AdeptSister, you are making statements about the fluff that simply aren't there in the fluff. Either that or you're using a definition of the term "innocent" far different from the one I am.

Because I did not read about a single story hook in the codex which involved innocents.

*Sigh* I think we disagree on some terms. When I say "innocent" I interpret it as "someone that is not guilty." And I believe an "unwitting pawn" is "someone that is not guilty." "Unwitting pawns" are mentioned in both the Generic and IG hooks as ones that Witchhuters will slaughter totally just to make sure. They also will slaughter you if they even they think you may be guilty or there could be the slightest chance that you are guilty (see the first IG hook). Because of this view, some people for are not guilty get swept up in the Sister's rampage. I take someone that is not guilty to be innocent.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

... the alternative of which is to be killed.

It's coerced. Deal with it, Tau love genocide, they practice it all the time.

They're evil little cowfishbirds and everyone but you knows it

As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical. The Tau are, in terms their expansionist philosophy, probably the most similar to modern humans. They are no moral or immoral, or even amoral, since they TRY to be kind to all they meet, without it getting in their way.

Logic and manifest destiny drives the Tau. Also, read my most recent post (not including this one), and you'll see the Tau are by far the kindest and most humane race in 40k. By far!!!

@Asherian, yes GKs are evil, since it is no better to be attacked by them than it is to be attacked by daemons. Especially if you're a pious Imperial citizen who beleives salvation is on it's way, and then salvation cuts your head off with a massive force Halberd.

I will agree that Tau are the most humane in 40k...but that means little when compared with current morality.

And Sisters are the best of humanity...but remember the virtues of humanity are far different that ours in Grimdark 40k.

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Wow... I read the first few pages of this thread. Wow. It kinda turned my stomach a little having one my armies (GK) have a blood jacuzzi in my other armies blood (SOB) and they are supposed to be on the same side. WTF?!
I know the DeathWatch RPG (I know, do I really want to expand this argument even more?), isn't canon but perhaps some insight. I think it does mention in there that only men can be SM and the Blood of Martyrs (yeah, I know the irony) has Sisters of Repentia that got there as possibly minor violations and not necessarily corruption from Chaos.
Some of the Faith Powers in that Book Blood of Martyrs has a power that if pulled can have a SM battle cruiser land on the character and the character gets up and walks away and gives a thumbs to sky for Big E. Sometimes their power of faith is amazing and real manifestations. Above corruption, no, but rare. I think that figure diorama with Ephrael Stern and Silas Hand from Daemonifuge has a Demon corrupted sister from Stern's sisters if I'm not mistaken.

[http://www.minidragon.net/images/Warhammer%2040K/ephrael1.jpg]

Hey there, want some Smallpox blankets? They'll keep you warm tonight, but most of you will die horribly within the next decade.

Or we could just shoot you all, but it's your choice, really.

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Exactly. Either way it's genocide, either way it's evil. Tau fanboys can defend them all they want, but Tau are still evil bastards