Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone

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**Amishprn86**

KiloFiX wrote:Also at most Lascannons etc will only do 3 Wounds?

No D6 wounds

JNAProductions wrote:
Primark G wrote:
They are less likely to than Custodian Guard and that is a fact.

By how much, though? And in fact, if you spend equal points, not equal models, are they STILL less likely?

252 gets you three Allarus with Axes.
260 gets you five Custodian Guard with Spears.

In shooting, Allarus have 3d3 additional S4 AP-3 shots if within 12", but the regular Guard get you 67% more shooting with the main weapons.

All these numbers assume Rapid Fire and Charge, but no nearby Captain.

Against GEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 10/3 wounds with both weapons, for 10/3 dead from the Grenades and 25/9 dead from Axes. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds. So that's 10/3+25/9+25/3, or 14.44 dead GEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 50/9 wounds, for 125/27 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 125/12 wounds. So that's 125/27+125/12, or 15.05 dead GEQ.

Against MEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/4 dead from Axes and 25/12 dead from Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved. So that's 5/4+25/12+50/9, or 8.89 dead MEQ.
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/12 dead from Spears. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/2 hits, 25/3 wounds, and 125/18 unsaved. So that's 25/12+125/18, or 9.02 dead MEQ.

Against TEQ...
Allarus do 6 shots, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds from both weapons, for 5/6 unsaved wounds from Axes (upped to 5/3 for 2 damage) and 5/3 for Grenades. Then, charging, they do 12 swings, 10 hits, 25/3 wounds, 25/6 unsaved, which multiplies by 2 to 25/3 damage dealt. So that's 5/3+5/3+25/3, or 11.67 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 10-11 in actuality).
Guard do 10 shots, 25/3 hits, 25/6 wounds, for 25/18 unsaved and 25/9 damage. Then, charging, they do 15 swings, 25/3 wounds, 50/9 unsaved, up to 100/9 damage dealt. So that's 25/9+100/9, or 13.89 wounds (not accounting for Overkill, so let's call it 12-13 wounds in actuality).

So, for 8 points more, you get:
-2 more bodies (critical for holding objectives)
-More damage against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs (and who else will outnumber you on an objective? I don't see Leman Russes doing that often).
More wounds (15 versus 12)

And mostly only are penalized in that you lose efficiency every 3 wounds, rather than every 4.

This is good, makes me want Guard now lol.

**greyknight12**

stratigo wrote:
I do think, if you are going pure bikers, it behooves you to take some melta missiles to soften up and kill armor. Especially leman russes.

But, obviously the best way to play is to simply have a detachment from another army with good anti tank weaponry.

Despite the math, I do think the meltas have a place. I’ve played GK enough to see the limits of mass bolter fire and relying on melee for anti-tank. It’s a gun that gives you options, and if you beat the average it can help you out a lot. The anti-flyer version is a nice bonus as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Allarus vs Guard is the same debate GK players have been having over terminators and paladins for 3 editions now. TLDR, it all comes down to how many points that extra wound and attack is worth.

**Primark G**

No it’s all about the axes.

**JNAProductions**

Primark G wrote:
No it’s all about the axes.

Did you just miss my post? Even with axes, they do worse than Guard, point for point, against objective holders.

**Primark G**

Axes wound T4 on 2+. Versus T8 they wound on 4+ and it is out there.

**Crazyterran**

Spears wound Guardsmen and such on 2s the same as Axes, so point for point they are more efficient.

Since the average objective holder with enough bodies that you wont obliterate them in melee regardless are Guard/Cultists.

**Audustum**

Crazyterran wrote:
Spears wound Guardsmen and such on 2s the same as Axes, so point for point they are more efficient.

Since the average objective holder with enough bodies that you wont obliterate them in melee regardless are Guard/Cultists.

Actually, it's balanced against T4 too. I pointed this out in a prior post. Axes are AP-2 while spears/swords/lances are AP-3. 3+ AP-3 does the same average as 2+ AP-2 against T4 power armor (Marines and CSM).

So the axes are irrelevant there too.

**AnomanderRake**

The axes are 2pts more than the spears because they're irrelevant or marginally relevant against a huge number of targets, but are useful for fighting T7 models without burning CP on Piercing Strike.

If you really want the axes and the extra attack I'd stick with Wardens, though.

**MilkmanAl**

+1 to wound against everything T8, T7, and T4 isn't "marginally relevant," in my book. That's a sizable percentage of the models you'll face. I guess that they'll also have a higher probability of saving in many instances, though, so maybe it evens out a little?

**Primark G**

You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Someone literally just did the math saying you were wrong.

**MilkmanAl**

Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

**Cephalobeard**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Someone literally just did the math saying you were wrong.

I don't think he cares. It's bee explained ad nauseum.

**Amishprn86**

MilkmanAl wrote:
Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

Its D3, but the difference are -2 vs -3 and S6 vs S8, unless they have an invul save, rolling 2+ to wound with 1 less AP is the same damage as 3+ to wound and 1 more ap

**AnomanderRake**

MilkmanAl wrote:
+1 to wound against everything T8, T7, and T4 isn't "marginally relevant," in my book. That's a sizable percentage of the models you'll face. I guess that they'll also have a higher probability of saving in many instances, though, so maybe it evens out a little?

You get +16.7% damage output on the to-wound roll against T8, T6, and T4 (+33% against T7). And -16.7% damage output on the save roll against models with a 4+ or better armour save and no Invul or a weak Invul.

The axe is no better unless you're fighting units that have T4 or T6-8, and a strong Invulnerable save/weak armour save, which in practice means monsters, Terminators, Space Wolf Dreadnaughts, and non-Primaris Marine characters.

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Also, axes do d3 damage in melee, just like Spears, unless I'm missing something.

You're missing that Primark has...shall we say...a loose connection to reality?

**BrianDavion**

I don't think the termies are all bad. that said I think they might be best on characters (I am not saying the best captain is the terminator just that a terminator captain might have some uses in the right list) . a captain in allarus plate with an axe is only 22 points more then a sheild captain with guardian spear, which might not bad a bad deal for an extra wound and the ability to deep strike. as well as access to some relics that are unique to terminators.

**Primark G**

Sorry was looking at the stats for the axe shooting... lol. I’ve been running a Shield Captain in terminator armor along with one on a jetbike, it’s been a good combination.

**JNAProductions**

Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Again, I literally did the math. Point for point, basic Guard do better.

**Primark G**

3x Allarus vs. cultists

Axes - 6 shots/5 hit/3 wound - 3 dead
Grenades - 6 shots (average)/5 hit/3 wound - 3 dead
6 kills

4x Wardens vs. cultists
Spears - 8 shots/7 hit/5 wound - 5 dead
5 kills

The extra kill from Allarus makes the morale test even harder for the cultists.

**MilkmanAl**

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.

*pencils in a few units of jetbikes*

**Slayer-Fan123**

Those Cultists are either 10 man (So already dead) or next to Abigail/Iron Warriors Warlord.

**Primark G**

I don’t run Guardians since I’m using a Vanguard detachment... I’m only concerned about comparisons between Wardens and Allarus. Plus if you look at the results for Guardians versus Allarus it’s a minimal difference - less than 1 wound.

**BrianDavion**

JNAProductions wrote:
Primark G wrote:
You will do more damage versus objective holders with Allarus due to the grenade launcher, increasing the odds they fail morale. I also like the straight 2 dmg for axes in melee.

Again, I literally did the math. Point for point, basic Guard do better.

Sometimes there is more to a battle then raw mathhammer. Mathhammer really only holds up entirely if you assuming firing lines or something. What makes Allarus Custodes cost more is their ability to deep strike. (they also gain an additional wound but the big thing is deep strike) allarus custodes aren't bad, but they're specialist. they exist to fill a specific niche role. with the stratigium you can only drop 2 units max. so if you wanna say.... drop a squad of custodes, a captain and a vexilia, you're going to need the characters in terminator armor

**AnomanderRake**

MilkmanAl wrote:

In practice the efficiency change of making a 65pt Warden 67pts or making an 82pt Allarus 84pts is way less than that caused by the tesselation problem of trying to fit an almost option-less army where your cheapest model is 52pts into any kind of round points total figure, so it's almost more of a matter of personal preference at that point. And either way it isn't really a good argument for taking Allarus over Guard.
*pencils in a few units of jetbikes*

...Well, yeah. On effectiveness alone if your option is to take <not jetbikes> or <jetbikes> take the jetbikes.

**Slayer-Fan123**

You don't need to drop that many units when the Bikes are doing a lot of the work though. Who cares if I am limited to how many drops I can do?

**Primark G**

The jetbikes are great but I wouldn’t simply rely upon them. They will struggle versus certain units.

**bananathug**

How do you guys plan on first turn charging CqC units?

Zerkers, letters, gores and stealers (just to name a few) seem like they will obliterate any custode unit they touch (see GW heat 3) without proper screening.

It seems those units alone will require allies of some sort unless there is something I'm not thinking of.

We don't take up enough board space to really prevent them from picking whatever target they want and our units are so expensive that even if they are trading 1 for 1 we are in a bad spot. Not to mention that getting charged really hurts the bikes (capts and dudes).

**Primark G**

I saw a batrep where World Eaters shred Custodes. Lots of cheap bodies for board control seems a must.

**Wulfey**

Every competitive imperium list has 3x5 scout marine squads in it or has at least 1 8-9 man squad. Custodes are no different. You can't have 90 point bikers absorbing 1st turn charges by 7 point bloodletters. If you want to play to win, bring scouts. If you want to play to lose ... let your opponent do their 3d6 deepstrike charge into custodes.

**Primark G**

What about guardsmen and conscripts?