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im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

This thread keeps going around... and around... and around...

AvatarForm wrote:This thread keeps going around... and around... and around...

Quick! Hook a generator up to it! This is next new form of green energy!

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

Just saying, daemons are suceptible to psychic attacks, but not to the point of it being "anathema" to them. The dude has a point, if a partly faulty one. Them referring to the Emperor as "anathema" is probably due to him being the archnemesis of Chaos IMO.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due , No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

I wouldn't say psychic power is an anathema to daemons. In fact a psychic void is anathema to them like pariahs. It's just that psychic power can be used as an effective weapon against them. It's like fighting fire with fire. However it's the intent of the psyker that is causing them harm not the psychic power itself.

im2randomghgh wrote:1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due ,

Spoiler:

Do you think that Varro Tigurius was just "giving the daemons cotton candy" when he was blasting daemons apart with is unbelievably powerful psychic might? That he was just "splashing fish with water" when he was holding a powerful DP and his hordes from entering the material universe?

No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

1. So you're basically rephrasing what I said. A Grey Knight is still a resolute enemy of Chaos even if you strip away all the things that supposedly make him a Grey Knight (his weapons, his wards, his psychic powers, in fact his very identity). So we're in agreement there.

2. How are you defining anathema? Simply something loathed and unwholesome? If so, absolutely everything is anathema to daemons because they hate everything. Otherwise, if you're using it in the sense of something being utterly alien, inherently wrong and diametrically opposed to everything you stand for, then no, psykers are far from anathema. In fact, the only time that word is used IIRC, is when discussing pariahs and other psychic blanks. Otherwise, merely being vulnerable to something doesn't make it anathema. If a magic creature requires a magic weapon to damage, does that mean magic is suddenly anathema to this magic creature? If a person gets shot in the face, does that mean bullets are now anathema to him? So yes, Tigurius was absolutely splashing fish with water, psychic power is channeled warp energy and daemons swim and live in the Warp... he was splashing fish with water, it just happened to be scalding-hot.

...Suddenly, I'm lost on the point of this...

Yes, daemons can be hurt by a psykers power. NO Being a psyker in NO WAY makes you immune to the powers of the warp. It just means that you can hurt the daemon just like the daemon can hurt you.

Warded armor DOES NOT necessarily require that you, personally, are a psyker. (Exactly how some versions of it work are poorly explained, however.)

BaronIveagh wrote:...Suddenly, I'm lost on the point of this...

Yes, daemons can be hurt by a psykers power. NO Being a psyker in NO WAY makes you immune to the powers of the warp. It just means that you can hurt the daemon just like the daemon can hurt you.

Stop speaking truthiness Baron, you're becoming a defender of GW!

Warded armor DOES NOT necessarily require that you, personally, are a psyker. (Exactly how some versions of it work are poorly explained, however.)

The Grey Knights' Aegis armor has always been explained as the wards are strong, but augmented by the Grey Knight himself.

The Deathwatch RPG has something kind of similar in the form of the Black Templars' relic armor, which is 'layered with hexagrammic wards allowing the wearer to shrug off most psychic assault'.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due ,

Spoiler:

Do you think that Varro Tigurius was just "giving the daemons cotton candy" when he was blasting daemons apart with is unbelievably powerful psychic might? That he was just "splashing fish with water" when he was holding a powerful DP and his hordes from entering the material universe?

No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

1. So you're basically rephrasing what I said. A Grey Knight is still a resolute enemy of Chaos even if you strip away all the things that supposedly make him a Grey Knight (his weapons, his wards, his psychic powers, in fact his very identity). So we're in agreement there.

2. How are you defining anathema? Simply something loathed and unwholesome? If so, absolutely everything is anathema to daemons because they hate everything. Otherwise, if you're using it in the sense of something being utterly alien, inherently wrong and diametrically opposed to everything you stand for, then no, psykers are far from anathema. In fact, the only time that word is used IIRC, is when discussing pariahs and other psychic blanks. Otherwise, merely being vulnerable to something doesn't make it anathema. If a magic creature requires a magic weapon to damage, does that mean magic is suddenly anathema to this magic creature? If a person gets shot in the face, does that mean bullets are now anathema to him? So yes, Tigurius was absolutely splashing fish with water, psychic power is channeled warp energy and daemons swim and live in the Warp... he was splashing fish with water, it just happened to be scalding-hot.

Psychic energy is not anathema to daemons themselves-just to their physical presence in the Materium. I define anathema as something that is elementally opposed to something else-psychic energy to the physical body of daemons for example.

@Canuck, you can, in the most literal sense imaginable, fight fire with fire as one fire can consume the oxygen supply the other needs to exist. Same diff with daemons. They are already very unstable in the materium, psychic energy accelerating the process of fading into the warp as exponentially as the expansion of the big bang accelerated the expansion of the Universe. Thanks for the analogy .

P.S. I will look for my source, since when you have read as much fluff as I, you tend to forget just where info came form.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Deathwatch RPG has something kind of similar in the form of the Black Templars' relic armor, which is 'layered with hexagrammic wards allowing the wearer to shrug off most psychic assault'.

There are similar things for Rogue Traders and Inquisitorial Acolytes too.

Hexagrammatic Wards for EVERYONE! (It's a wonder how lesser daemons are a threat to anyhting when an armor upgrade that RUNS ON A LASGUN POWER PACK can beat them...)

It's clearly because not everyone has hexagrammic wards.

Plus, they're easily broken from what I recall.

Kanluwen wrote:It's clearly because not everyone has hexagrammic wards.

Plus, they're easily broken from what I recall.

That's why you put them inside your armour.

Actually, there are ones that aren't easy to break, but the creation of them is considered tech heresy by the admech.

Since they don't require, you know, human sacrifice, can be placed on armor ranging from the lowest flak armor to astartes terminators...

...AND CAN BE BUILT IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAP!


Ahh...the Imperium. How the hell they ever win is a mystery to me.

'We have the perfect weapon for the job!'
"But that's heresy!'
'Ok, so we'll throw more men at it instead!'

Six billion deaths later...

'Ok, so that didn't work, we'll nuke the site from orbit'...

Fifty billion deaths later...

'...and that didn't work so... let's just cordon off the area and hope it goes away...'

they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

BaronIveagh wrote:Actually, there are ones that aren't easy to break, but the creation of them is considered tech heresy by the admech.

Since they don't require, you know, human sacrifice, can be placed on armor ranging from the lowest flak armor to astartes terminators...

...AND CAN BE BUILT IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAP!


Ahh...the Imperium. How the hell they ever win is a mystery to me.

'We have the perfect weapon for the job!'
"But that's heresy!'
'Ok, so we'll throw more men at it instead!'

Six billion deaths later...

'Ok, so that didn't work, we'll nuke the site from orbit'...

Fifty billion deaths later...

'...and that didn't work so... let's just cordon off the area and hope it goes away...'

WOO! Let's hear it for shield drones! One of the worst heresies of them all!

KamikazeCanuck wrote: they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

Not if the history of the Imperium is anything to go by. Most of the time it seems to end in Exterminatus (or the near annihilation of every human, at least) or defeat. Ironically, the average person on the ground has better odds of surviving (or even flourishing in some rare occasions) the Imperium being defeated then they do a victory.

What's funny too is they have not run out of humans yet. While humanity might be the Imperium's greatest resource, it's not infinite. Given the sheer volume of war going on, I'm surprised they haven't long since bled dry like Russia did in WWI and almost did during WWII.

Despite how much we joke about it, not every battle the Imperium fight ends with Exterminatus. If anything, destroying the whole planet is VERY rare.

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote: they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

Not if the history of the Imperium is anything to go by. Most of the time it seems to end in Exterminatus (or the near annihilation of every human, at least) or defeat. Ironically, the average person on the ground has better odds of surviving (or even flourishing in some rare occasions) the Imperium being defeated then they do a victory.

What's funny too is they have not run out of humans yet. While humanity might be the Imperium's greatest resource, it's not infinite. Given the sheer volume of war going on, I'm surprised they haven't long since bled dry like Russia did in WWI and almost did during WWII.

No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Despite how much we joke about it, not every battle the Imperium fight ends with Exterminatus. If anything, destroying the whole planet is VERY rare.

It is hardly a day-by-day kind of thing, but exterminatus isn't nearly as rare as you may think. An exterminatus is almost always used if a planet is entirely captured by the enemy, despite attacks of considerable size failing. The IoM will not allow a planet to fall to an enemy, ever. Only when all ships in orbit are destroyed/captured and they lose the capability to exterminatus, along with all ground effort failing, does a planet become enemy property. The Imperium will not expend unlimited resources for an agri-world.

The Imperium only uses Exterminatus when there is no other choice. I agree that they might be more willing to bomb a planet of no consequence, but if that theoretical agri-wrold supplies the nearby forge worlds and guard regiments, they're not going to give up on it until the planet has been over run from end to end with Orks/Daemons/whathaveyou.

Actually, how did we get to this particularly line of conversation?

Luke_Prowler wrote:The Imperium only uses Exterminatus when there is no other choice. I agree that they might be more willing to bomb a planet of no consequence, but if that theoretical agri-wrold supplies the nearby forge worlds and guard regiments, they're not going to give up on it until the planet has been over run from end to end with Orks/Daemons/whathaveyou.

Actually, how did we get to this particularly line of conversation?

The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Sorry, that's been retconned. Hiveworlds now have around 25 billion people (though the largest may exceed this). Further, according to canon, there are only 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium, or slightly more then one per sector (one might assume that Segmentum Solar has a slightly higher percentage of these) and make up less then 3% of the worlds of the Imperium.

On the Imperial Guard: It should be noted that most planets are too small to raise more then one or two IG regiments, meaning that they only provide about 5k-10k troops, with Agriworlds, due to their small populations, providing few to none at all.

Cadia gets around this by being a hive world with its entire population in the IG. Kreig gets around it by, according to some sources, tank growing their soldiers. Not sure how other places do it, but a lot are implied to use creative means to get around the issue of not having enough people.

im2randomghgh wrote:The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

As for the definition of scale, I think it would be when the planet looks like a shag carpet from orbit. Obviously it's different form enemy to enemy. Orks are one things, Tyranids and Daemon are another.

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

The point is 'Manifest Destiny'. That the Imperium and the Imperium alone must exist, and every other thing in the galaxy MUST be destroyed.

Well, I already knew that

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Sorry, that's been retconned. Hiveworlds now have around 25 billion people (though the largest may exceed this). Further, according to canon, there are only 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium, or slightly more then one per sector (one might assume that Segmentum Solar has a slightly higher percentage of these) and make up less then 3% of the worlds of the Imperium.

On the Imperial Guard: It should be noted that most planets are too small to raise more then one or two IG regiments, meaning that they only provide about 5k-10k troops, with Agriworlds, due to their small populations, providing few to none at all.

Cadia gets around this by being a hive world with its entire population in the IG. Kreig gets around it by, according to some sources, tank growing their soldiers. Not sure how other places do it, but a lot are implied to use creative means to get around the issue of not having enough people.

errr. You got the numbers 25 billion and 32,380 from?

25 billion from DH and Planetstrike (IIRC), and 32,380 from the 40k corebook. There was some fanrage over this, but GW decreed it canon.