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Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
I am actually quite aware of the books, have read 25 or so SW books, I even mentioned them in one of my posts.

P.S, I think it is worth mentioning that the books I read were those little, ~150 pg books (Feris Olin thing)

P.P.S, completely unrelated, reading The Lost and it's awesome!

See now you are just getting me back into Star Wars. I was completely happy with hating the Clone Wars and giving up on it, but now I have discovered that you have read those little 150 page books and are unaware of the the awesome ones.

First up you need to check out The New Jedi Order series. A lot of people don't like them, but they are a must if you are following the story of Jacen and Jaina Solo, the kids of Han and Leia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Jedi_Order

After that you get to the really good stuff:
The Legacy of the Force. I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want to spoil it, but these are some really good books.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Force

After that is the Fate of the Jedi series. I haven't finished them myself (due to my dislike of star wars in its current form) but these have remained the only thing good about Star Wars at the moment:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_of_the_jedi


These series are nothing like the Prequels or the crappy TV show.

I have read about 10 large ones (~300-~500pg) and about fourty crappy little ones.

B30 wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:
Oh man that's awesome, did you draw that yourself?

AlexHolker wrote:
That's a thing of beauty. Many thanks for sharing it.

Thanks ^^ Yes, I made it myself. You can find more of my art on my site (see in my sig. There is an "Warhammer &40K" album in the column on the right.

On topic, Demon hunters were an army I started because I had SM minis I didn't use, and because they looked like perfect allies for my main army: Sisters of battle. Also I liked their "desesperately fighting the good fight" aspect.
Now that they're a Mary-sue uber-marines chapter that casualy sacrifice Sisters and use their blood to fight the blood god (wth?), I don't think I will play them again. ^^ Sure, the fluff of the new codex is based on pre-existing fluff, but that doesn't save it from bad writing
And by the way, I've read the codex and forged my own opinion, I'm not surfing the hate-wave ;-)

Ahh but now your surfing the hate wave...... hate wave. By not conforming your conforming.

Just read the "evil" page 15 story in the Grey Knights codex.


And.. I have to agree with that hate its getting, theres just so much wrong with it.

1. Grey knight purity!, they are already supposed to be pure/protected. Butchering innocent "IMPERIAL!!" souls for their blood is supposed to make them purer...blah!

2. killing your allies seems a bit fishy in any situation, especially as they valiantly fought against the daemons/survived that far and were desperately fighting to reclaim the bastion

3. surely such a vile act would actually push them closer to corruption especially with the bloodtide going on, spilling innocent blood etc!

what a bunch of poopy, really that little story could have been done so much better!

Well, part of the problem is that the codex doesn't seem to have the same philosophy as the original GKs. The original imagery was the lone or sorely outnumbered paladin figure of purity against the bloothirsty hordes. Whether he lived or dies is irrelevant, he would tear a swath with his purity and dedication. This was how a lone GK could stand up to a Bloodthirster- not because he had a giant exo suit but because he had a infatiguable spirit and unflinching faith in the Emperor and humanity. The GKs were ruthless when necessary and would mind wipe (and sterilize) an entire population (or chapter) if tainted, but took only the very steps needed- they did not needlessly slaughter innocents, for example. Their heroes were not heroes because they were unstoppable engines of destruction, but because they were unbending beacons of purity and faith.

The newest GK codex lacks any subtlety and just tries to make them "super" marines with shiny toys and mega heroes. The slaughter of the sisters could have been handled better in a number of ways as posters have stated (I found the sacrifice of a junior brother and the commemoration by crimson gauntlets particularly powerful as it underscores their dedication and sacrifice without resorting to more sister fiction murder). Draigo could have been interesting as a sort of rogue Inquisitor styled figure- supremely confident and skilled, but perhaps leaving a harrowing wake of losses as he drives some of the most skilled GKs into veritable death traps. Instead we get a bizarrely misogynistic (rthe Bloodtide and Sister slaying combined should have set off red flags, pardon the pun) blurb that seems to play to Khorne and a Mary Sue fantasy hero the KICKS GRIM DARK's BUTT!

They need to actualy have fluff meeting or something, Or do nothing until its read by jervis johnson

Kurgash wrote:When the Necron book arrives I'm going to go through it with a 6 pack in hand and a tissue box, so I can drunkenly cry to myself at what my metal horrors have become.

"Necrons, a dead race that is more dead than anyone else. So dead that they rebuild themselves just to die again!"

Hooray! Emo robots!

Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Well Matt Ward ain't doing the next Tau Codex, so you'll probably get some very good units rather than an Uber-Ethereal who took down Marneus Calgar and the Sanguinor in single combat whilst simultaneously banging Shadowsun!

im2randomghgh wrote:Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Chapterhouse has a nice Tau uber unit. So good that I hear GW has tried to cease and desist it http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=37

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Chapterhouse has a nice Tau uber unit. So good that I hear GW has tried to cease and desist it http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=37

How dare you show me something so awesome that happens to be almost 300$!
No unit will ever be as cool again after having seen that.

Well, you asked...

@Psienesis

That was a joke.
If you didn't understand that, you need help of the psychological variety.

26 pages, well done folks. So, true story, I got the GK codex a while ago but have just been reading a little bit at a time. Yesterday, I read that they slaughtered a bunch of SoB and then bathed in their blood. Yeah my reaction was pretty much "WTF!?". Then I had to laugh a little. Is there no end to the number of ways a Battle Sister can be martyred? I thought we'd seen it all but Grey Knight Blood Ritual? that's new one. I'm sure the Sisters didn't see coming. I only just started reading this thread because the title is actually pretty misleading. I didn't realize it was about this incident. However I must agree with what chaos0xomega said WAY back on page 6.
"You know, I feel like much of this bitching is due to people not having realized that GK's aren't Mary Sue marines... Slaughtering servants of the emperor is NOTHING NEW for the Grey Knights. Its been in their fluff forever, hell the Grey Knight Redemption Force (or whatever its called) formation for apoc has it AS A RULE.

Bathing in their blood is something else entirely, not gonna touch that with a 10 lightyear pole."

In other words, sometimes in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium grimdark happens. I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs. I'm not sure if the SoB Bloodbath even qualifies in the top 5 most evil things they do in that 'dex!
Despite all this I was going to join in on the mocking of Matt Ward for the sheer nonsensicalness of this story. Why are they doing this ridiculous ritual when there are already incorruptable? As Kid Kyoto might put it they like hate the space demons x2 so they like put armour on their armour to make them extra invincible against the space demons.

However, I need to give Kanulen some credit here: he makes a strong argument. It's a matter of semantics that may confuse some of our fellow geeks. There's two types of corruption:
1) Selling your soul to Satan. This can happen wittingly like the classic story of a cultist trying to gain a Chaos god's favor in exchange for power and whatnot or unwittingly like the classic story of soldier with a little to much bloodlust going over the edge and becoming a kornate Beserker. etc.

2) Direct contact with Warp energy. The Immaterium is another dimension made of pure energy that doesn't follow our rules of psyhics and unfortunately contains malevolent sentients. Take anyone and drop them right into the warp and they get messed up quick, GK or not. We're talking tentacles with eyeballs in 60 seconds flat.

It was #2 that the GKs were dealing with this time and because they are not, nor have they ever been shining examples or morality, they were not above using evil-blood-sacrfice-dark-rituals to get the job done. So they did and it worked. So really this isn't the travesty of fluff most are making it out to be. These guys just aren't the good guys you thought they were.

Quite frankly ,I'm more concerned about the fact that that each individual bolt round they make pretty much requires them to eat a baby.

Even if it was corruption type-2 the story said there were pure SOB left on the world. Regardless of the kind of corruption SOB are less protected from it and they didn't need any extra nonsense to protect themselves. Yet, the GK who are supposedly better suited to fight any kind of corruption needed the blood on top of the Aegis and Wards.

Many of the SoBs were corrupted by the bloodtide in that battle and many have been corrupted by the second type throughout their history. When they're talking about how only one has been lost to chaos they're talking type 1.

Some sisters fell and some sisters remained pure, it's the latter that I'm concerned with, they didn't need any extra stuff to remain pure. Also the Bloodtide seems to be type 1 anyway. It made all the dudes on the shrine world go mad and start killing people. No sprouting of limbs and eyeballs.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
"You know, I feel like much of this bitching is due to people not having realized that GK's aren't Mary Sue marines... Slaughtering servants of the emperor is NOTHING NEW for the Grey Knights. Its been in their fluff forever, hell the Grey Knight Redemption Force (or whatever its called) formation for apoc has it AS A RULE.

Bathing in their blood is something else entirely, not gonna touch that with a 10 lightyear pole."

In other words, sometimes in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium grimdark happens.

The point is that Grey Knights were the secret poster boys, the purest of the pure and the ideals of the Emperor embodied in Astartes form. Now they are just normal guys that fight Daemons who employ radical tendencies to get the job done.

It does not mention any sacrifice of the population in the Redeemer Force (attached) to perform any ritual. True, it does mention that they either scrub or kill the population. But this is to prevent any further taint, but this has been established since the First War of Armageddon fluff.

This sort of thing hasn't been given any thought before, not in the Index Astartes articles, nor the Grey Knights novels. Ok, until The new one Sacrifice in the new Victories set, but to me this is just an attempt at patching up the dire fluff that Mr Ward has provided us with in the codex.

The story can be fluffed out with new story without adding OTT stuff like this and can keep in touch with what has already been established.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's two types of corruption:

Or there's the third kind, which is dominance of will, such as the instance of the Sisters of Battle in Daemonifuge where they are turned by a Keeper of Secrets they are attempting to study.

But the Blood Tide should not have hampered the purer than pure, anti corruptible, Daemon hunting Marines because it is what they are created to do, deal with the Daemonic and Warp born nightmares. The wards and markings would have protected them before, why not now?

I'm glad that you are happy with the Codex and its contents, some of us have to be, but I'm clearly in the group that thinks it is an abomination and should be cleansed with holy fire, without the requirement of sacrificing innocents for their blood to rub on my flamer first.

jmurph wrote:Well, part of the problem is that the codex doesn't seem to have the same philosophy as the original GKs. The original imagery was the lone or sorely outnumbered paladin figure of purity against the bloothirsty hordes. Whether he lived or dies is irrelevant, he would tear a swath with his purity and dedication. This was how a lone GK could stand up to a Bloodthirster- not because he had a giant exo suit but because he had a infatiguable spirit and unflinching faith in the Emperor and humanity. The GKs were ruthless when necessary and would mind wipe (and sterilize) an entire population (or chapter) if tainted, but took only the very steps needed- they did not needlessly slaughter innocents, for example. Their heroes were not heroes because they were unstoppable engines of destruction, but because they were unbending beacons of purity and faith.

The newest GK codex lacks any subtlety and just tries to make them "super" marines with shiny toys and mega heroes. The slaughter of the sisters could have been handled better in a number of ways as posters have stated (I found the sacrifice of a junior brother and the commemoration by crimson gauntlets particularly powerful as it underscores their dedication and sacrifice without resorting to more sister fiction murder). Draigo could have been interesting as a sort of rogue Inquisitor styled figure- supremely confident and skilled, but perhaps leaving a harrowing wake of losses as he drives some of the most skilled GKs into veritable death traps. Instead we get a bizarrely misogynistic (rthe Bloodtide and Sister slaying combined should have set off red flags, pardon the pun) blurb that seems to play to Khorne and a Mary Sue fantasy hero the KICKS GRIM DARK's BUTT!

You sir have the way of it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

I wish Matt Ward was.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
1) Selling your soul to Satan. This can happen wittingly like the classic story of a cultist trying to gain a Chaos god's favor in exchange for power and whatnot or unwittingly like the classic story of soldier with a little to much bloodlust going over the edge and becoming a kornate Beserker. etc.

Which, I grant, is something I have a hard time picturing a Grey Knight doing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
2) Direct contact with Warp energy. The Immaterium is another dimension made of pure energy that doesn't follow our rules of psyhics and unfortunately contains malevolent sentients. Take anyone and drop them right into the warp and they get messed up quick, GK or not. We're talking tentacles with eyeballs in 60 seconds flat.

Except the minor problem where the rest of the fluff spends quite a bit of space bellowing about how the GKs spend a lot of time in direct contact with the warp. How Titan spent decades in the warp during the HH.

And then there's Draigo...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Quite frankly ,I'm more concerned about the fact that that each individual bolt round they make pretty much requires them to eat a baby.

The sad part is that's more internally consistent (though very grimderp) then much of the rest of the book.

@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

I would agree. That's why I didn't like humanization of the GKs. They were supposed to have had regular mind wipes so as to minimize their personality. No Personality = no character flaws that can be exploited by the ruinous powers. That all seems to have been retconned out along with an additional 2000 GKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cottonjaw wrote:Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

Me too. I wouldn't have done that. If I'm coming in to relieve a beseiged unit of Sisters surrounded by Daemons my first thought wouldn't have been "Well, obviously we need to kill those Sisters and douse ourselves in their blood" but you know what? That's just how the Grey Knights roll.
"The ends always justify the means" is The Inquisition motto dontchaknow.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

I would agree. That's why I didn't like humanization of the GKs. They were supposed to have had regular mind wipes so as to minimize their personality. No Personality = no character flaws that can be exploited by the ruinous powers. That all seems to have been retconned out along with an additional 2000 GKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cottonjaw wrote:Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

Me too. I wouldn't have done that. If I'm coming in to relieve a beseiged unit of Sisters surrounded by Daemons my first thought wouldn't have been "Well, obviously we need to kill those Sisters and douse ourselves in their blood" but you know what? That's just how the Grey Knights roll.
"The ends always justify the means" is The Inquisition motto dontchaknow.

They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@KamikaziCanuck,
The Holy Ordos' motto is actually
"innocence proves nothing"

They are quite warded up with all kinds of doodads and probably would have been fine. By fine I mean would have lost some men but triumphed after a hard fight assaulting the corrupted Bascilla. However, they decided that it is much better for a unit of Soriatus to definately die rather than the possibilty of one Grey Knight possibly dieing. Once again, that's just how they roll.
This is in line with what's previously establised in the book that it is better for 10,000,000,000 humans to die than for a single one to know that Grey Knights exist. Like a said before the SoB bloodbath may be the grossiest thing they do in the 'dex but its not even close to be one of the worst.

Matt Ward is eviler than both of these two put together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFA-rOls8YA

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.

Um, the fluff says that Titan is currently part in and part out of the warp.... sound familiar to anyone? Further, elsewhere in the same fluff... 'We'll jump through the warp without protection'

And, Again... Draigo.... just.....Draigo....

Sounds like Titan is a Daemonworld...That makes Draigo a Daemon Prince. How dastardly! The greatest defenders of the IoM are actually chaos agents! I bet this is the Alpha Legion's work!

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.

Um, the fluff says that Titan is currently part in and part out of the warp.... sound familiar to anyone? Further, elsewhere in the same fluff... 'We'll jump through the warp without protection'

And, Again... Draigo.... just.....Draigo....

Also Lysander, who isn't a psyker, or a GK, survived in the Warp for 1,000 Imperial standard, which was probably many times longer to Lysander in the Immaterium, and escaped perfectly pure and unscathed...of course he had just about the biggest TH anyone has ever seen, but the point remains.

asimo77 wrote:Sounds like Titan is a Daemonworld...That makes Draigo a Daemon Prince. How dastardly! The greatest defenders of the IoM are actually chaos agents! I bet this is the Alpha Legion's work!

It has the stink of Malal about it.... LOL

Ironically: post 1337.

@Baron
True...true...