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Had a look at the (printed out) codex today. Looks nice with a lot of cribbly artwork in it. The genestealer pic is too cantoony and doesn't fit into the overall style but besdies that it's good.

Even as a Tyranid player I was baffled with the complexity of the new codex, though. But maybe it was only the german version. I'm german, but used to read warhammer related stuff in english...

The spore mine is in and 40 points. If you drop a carni, you can't have a brood of them, though, so it's 1 per heavy slot. And its 200 points for a basic loadout. So I don't fear a no brainer there. And sure, you can have 9 Carnifexes in a list, but you look at almost 1500 Points pretty much naked.

Stealers and Gaunts can be dropped, too, though and the spore indeed uses most of the drop pod rules (not the automatic deep striking if I remember correctly).

The Trygon is 200 points and units that deep strike can use it's borrowed entry point.

I cannot give any infos on the guns though, because they have weird names in german and I'm not used to them. Sorry. Only that they ain't x+2 anymore. But thats old news.

Ravener and Warriors have both W3 but a 4+/5+ save that cannot be improved. So no 3+ AS warriors as troops. Basic warrior is 30 points.

I can confirm the rumors on the hormagaunts.

Zoanthropes focused warp lightning is range 18" S10 AP1 lance now!

And the Pyrowore is indeed a melee monster. As strange as it sounds. The weapon is a flamer and it ignores armor saves in close combat. It hasn't got a super fighty stat line, though. Undecided if it's worth it.

Overall a nice Codex, all my units are still viable and useful. Unsure if all the new strange critters will work out.

That's everything for now, didn't read it to memorize anything, but maybe I can give more answers when asked.

Greets
Schepp himself

Very cool info Schepp. Thanks a lot!


One concern: if 9 naked 'Fexes is 1500 points, they must have upped the cost on them a good bit. Currently they're 85 naked. Did they get a significant stat line overhaul?

Wow, 30pts for those Warriors, I am curious as to what comes standard on them.

Thanks for the update...can I ask where you saw the dex? I'm hoping that I can get mine soon...I'm a personal friend of the store owner, so hoefully can get a sale before the official release date.

Or at least a look since I want to know the stats of the units I will be buying.

Hmm, this is a little problematic considering all my Warriors have Extended Carapace currently. They're all painted and I'd rather not have to go over them again. Perhaps I can just say the Carapace is for show instead, and not improve their save.

Raveners with 3W is nice, but with a 5+ save they're still going to be fodder for Tactical Squads.

Carnifex cost seems totally crazy- doesn't matter to me though as I'll be running a list that focuses on speed.

It's odd because 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a W3 Tyranid Warrior. And 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a Marine.

The Marine is 16. The Warrior is 30.

Not a fair trade. They need T5 or T4(5).

The Carnifexes have the aforementioned boosts in Ws Bs and A and two sets of scything talons base which let them reroll all hits. Also the +2 I on the charge thing. Crushing claws are still the same points (IIRC) and give you +D3 attacks always at I 1.

Raveners are also 30 points with double scything talons.

Warrior standard loadout is scything talons and "Neuralfresser", I think, that would be the devourer in english.

You can also give some weapons only broodwise, to prevent oot wound allocation I suppose.

@Neith: They have 4+ As base, so they have extended carapace. All the armor is called differently. Basic armor (6+) is "Chitin" and a 4+ AS for example is called "verstärkter Carapax" or something like that.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. You can give more creatures regeneration now. Trygon, Hive Tyrant...

A few questions:

1) Is the Lash wipe remove one attack, or reduce attacks to one?

2) What is the Str. and Number of Shots of the Tyrant's Venom Cannon?

3) What are the stats of the Devourer?

4) What happens to the Barbed Strangler? Especially on the Carnifex.

5) What is the Carnifexes Instictive Behavior?

Is this factoring cover or non-cover? Assuming that they still cap out at 6 for a full unit, that's 18 wounds for 180pts. That's 10pts per wound. Not bad actually since marines are 16pts and to get an equivalent in wounds would be 288pts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's odd because 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a W3 Tyranid Warrior. And 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a Marine.

The Marine is 16. The Warrior is 30.

Not a fair trade. They need T5 or T4(5).

Schepp himself wrote:
@Neith: They have 4+ As base, so they have extended carapace. All the armor is called differently. Basic armor (6+) is "Chitin" and a 4+ AS for example is called "verstärkter Carapax" or something like that.

Ah, that's not too bad then- I think I still have the same problem with my Genestealers, but I'll just count them as having their basic Armour Save.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Is this factoring cover or non-cover?

Non-cover.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Assuming that they still cap out at 6 for a full unit, that's 18 wounds for 180pts. That's 10pts per wound. Not bad actually since marines are 16pts and to get an equivalent in wounds would be 288pts.

Not a fair comparison.

162 HB shots to kill 16 wounds of MEQs.
54 HB shots to kill 16 wounds of Warriors.

GW once again overcosts a model with multiple wounds taking no account of their Toughness and Armour Save (unless they are T4(5) or T5, in which case it is quite different).

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW once again overcosts a model with multiple wounds taking no account of their Toughness and Armour Save (unless they are T4(5) or T5, in which case it is quite different).

Well, isn't this yet another joyous codex from Robbie Cruddace? You know, filled with units whipped out from nowhere, 20-shot weapons, poor understanding of pricing and a general attitude of "who cares, this is awesome!"

3 wounds at 30pts seems reasonable, until the immune to instant death is taken into account. 300pts for 10 warriors (naked) that get picked up off the table from veteran meltaguns, battlecannons, thunderhammers, etc... I suppose those weapons should pick them up, but make the warriors 2 wounds for 20pts then to help mitigate all those str 8 instant kills they will receive.

30pts for a warrior also come from the synapse footprint a large group of warriors can project. Heavy bolters are also not in vogue currently. Heavy flamers and template weapons are the anti-horde weapon of choice right now.

One IG Heavy Bolter versus a MEQ = 3 shots, 1.5 Hit, .75 Wounds, .25 Casualties

One IG Heavy Bolter versus a Warrior in 4+ cover = 3 shots, 1.5 Hit, .75 Wounds, .38 Casulties


10 MEQs equals 40 Heavy Bolters

6 3 Wound Warriors (18 wounds total) equal 72 Heavy Bolters

Bringing cover into it changes things. But I was talking out of cover. They're not worth the cost. "Just stick it in cover" should never be a measure of how durable a unit is, especially one that should be moving forward and trying to get into HTH.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's odd because 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a W3 Tyranid Warrior. And 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a Marine.

The Marine is 16. The Warrior is 30.

Not a fair trade. They need T5 or T4(5).

And three plasma wounds kill one Warrior but 3 Space Marines.

Marines need 2 wounds!

See what I did there?

Mahu wrote:A few questions:

1) Is the Lash wipe remove one attack, or reduce attacks to one?

Don't know for sure...I think it was to one.

Mahu wrote:
2) What is the Str. and Number of Shots of the Tyrant's Venom Cannon?

3) What are the stats of the Devourer?

4) What happens to the Barbed Strangler? Especially on the Carnifex.

All of the above: had to guess and I won't do that. Weapons are pretty much fixed now, so no "on a Carnifex, this weapon has...". The Devourer gets "Hellworms" or something like that as a special ammunition when the firing beast is bigger, maybe for a cost.

Mahu wrote:
5) What is the Carnifexes Instictive Behavior?

Uhh... Damn. Either feed or lurk I guess...

Sorry that I can't help you out mahu, but it was more of an overall glance. Once again, tyranid weaponry are not my thing.

Greets
Schepp himself

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bringing cover into it changes things. But I was talking out of cover. They're not worth the cost. "Just stick it in cover" should never be a measure of how durable a unit is, especially one that should be moving forward and trying to get into HTH.

Yes, but to consider the cost of a unit you have to also consider the a typical circumstances they will find themselves in. Warriors should most likely get cover save because they are most likely to have cheap Gaunts and Hormagaunts around them.

Even so, 18 wounds divided by a .75 still means you will need 24 Heavy Bolters on the table to kill a full unit of 6 in a single shooting phase. Who has that?


Whenever you have another time to see the Codex Schepp. I was wondering if Tyrants get the high or low end Venom Cannon and what the stats of that Venom Cannon is. Thank you for what information you have.

I agree, Warriors will most likely have huge screens of gaunts or hormaguants in front of them. GW is promoting the Hive Wave appraoch to Bugs. This is the most likely situation the Warriors and Heavy Bolters will find themselves in. warriors behind a screen of little bugs. If someone does not do this with thier Bug army, they are playing away from the strengths the units working together. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't play that way, but if they choose to do so they will limit the effectiveness of certain units.

@Schepp himself
Do you remember if anything was immune to Instant Death?
How about cost or BS of Zoanthropes?

Yeah, I tend to think Warriors are going to be in the middle or rear of the formation most times anyway. Shooting and objective holding are the role I envision for them...not getting stuck in vs. TH/SS Terms, etc.

Although it's interesting that there's plenty of options to avoid playing Tyranids in a unidirectional, must-cross-the-table way. Spore Pods, Lictors, Mawlocs, Trygons (and other units through their tunnel), Ymgarl Genestealers, etc. really give you a lot to build around. There have to be some highly competitive builds there.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW once again overcosts a model with multiple wounds taking no account of their Toughness and Armour Save (unless they are T4(5) or T5, in which case it is quite different).

This begs the question of what do you think is the appropriate increase in cost for an added wound, for example what should a a basic marine with a second wound cost?

I agree the pricing is poor. I think GW's problem is that they see wounds, toughness, and armor saves as directly equal components in pricing; an increase to anyone is equal to an increase to any other. Most people know better. How much should this Warrior cost? The way you guys speak even if they have those extra wounds but moderate toughness and moderate saves, they should be priced less than the model with no extra wounds, moderate toughness and high armor. I think this problem has a risen due to an imbalance in the number of heavy weapons. That there are so many heavy weapons relative to normal weapons, no unit can specialize in dealing with the lighter threats without being a liability.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, isn't this yet another joyous codex from Robbie Cruddace? You know, filled with units whipped out from nowhere, 20-shot weapons, poor understanding of pricing and a general attitude of "who cares, this is awesome!"

Where else are units going to come from? I mean seriously, they have to invent new stuff at some point.
I think you got it wrong, the pervasive attitude at GW is, "if its fun, who cares." That though carries alot of the issues you have. Why can't a weapon be 20 shots, because there wasn't anything before? The whole game is an abstract representation of a futuristic battlefield; the "abstract" aspect allows one to justify through a conscious effort of the imagination and require nothing else. Why do people, get frustrated with points? It wouldn't matter if the other people playing didn't. If I use a unit poorly pointed and so do you, we're still playing a fair game. Its when people get so focused on the gaming the mechanics and point system, that they forget to play the game and have fun.

Robin Cruddace may not be the best codex writer, but I do think he's better than some of the writers in the past. He brings unorthodox thinking, in his willingness not to be tied down drastically by what preceded his work. While I will disagree with some of his choices, like Ogryn and Warrior point costs, you have to give him credit that he isn't just cranking out cookie cutter codices; he is giving players something to get excited about.

30 points for a Warrior doesn't seem horrendously overcosted. Since they come with scything talons, a pretty decent gun (assuming it stays similar to what it was), a 4+ save, and synapse, it's a justifiable cost. Maybe they should be ~27 points or something. The real problem is that Cruddance went in the wrong direction when trying to make them tougher. More wounds was not the answer. T5 would've solved all their issues.

All in all, I see that issue as more of an annoyance than anything. In all likelihood, my Warriors will be surrounded by a wall of Hormagaunts and will thus almost always get cover saves. I'm okay with that.

I'm pumped about the possibilities this codex is apparently bringing. Drop podding Genestealers? Hell yes. Raveners sound pretty damned awesome, too. Sure, they'll get beaten up a little, but with 3 wounds and what sounds like a hellacious alpha strike, I can deal.

Don't they also come with Shadow in the Warp. It's not as awesome, but it could come in handy. It's kinda like the SW acute senses, in that it's not always useful, but when you need it your thankfull you have it. just a thought...

FYI, there's a mini-meltdown happening on Warseer because someone thinks fexes dropped to T5. This seems unconfirmed, however.

I suppose the dynamic with Tyranids is much like with IG. There are some things regarding the traditional units that perhaps could have been handled better. However, it's largely academic because the new units and options overshadow said issues.

Podding fleet 'stealers almost seems too good to be true. Pod deployment might also be a contributing factor for Hormagaunts slowing down a bit.

gorgon wrote:
Regarding credibility, etc., this stuff is likely 99% accurate.

Like the SW Rumors were 99% accurate

10 Wound Zoes...

Come On

Come on

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's odd because 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a W3 Tyranid Warrior. And 9 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots will kill a Marine.

The Marine is 16. The Warrior is 30.

Not a fair trade. They need T5 or T4(5).

they're meant to be relatively immune to small arms fire which making them base 4+ save and 3 wounds does pretty well; redo your mathhammer with lasguns/boltguns/pulse rifles/shootas/etc. i think the whole point is for you to have a cheaper nonmonstrous unit that you're tempted to fire your heavy weapons at, thereby saving the MCs for a few more turns. it was crap that somehow they spammed eternal warrior because they had a special link to the hive mind (i ate that lascannon with only a bit of indigestion because i have the hive mind on psychic speed dial??). whether or not you like to use it in your examples, 5th edition with it's 4+ for everybody cover saves is the (quite effective) solution to high ap weaponry.

warboss wrote: it was crap that somehow they spammed eternal warrior because they had a special link to the hive mind (i ate that lascannon with only a bit of indigestion because i have the hive mind on psychic speed dial??).

How does this apply to the copious amount of marines (and others!) that can do the same thing? Those at least have vehicles to mitigate the directed high strength shots, and yet still manage to eat lascannons with nothing other than being old (?!) to explain why they can do so.

wyomingfox wrote:

gorgon wrote:
Regarding credibility, etc., this stuff is likely 99% accurate.

Like the SW Rumors were 99% accurate

10 Wound Zoes...

Come On

Come on

It's not 10 wounds to start. The psychic power leeches wounds and you max out at 10 if you get that far.

If you're still in disbelief, I'm fine with a wager. I can always use more Hive Guards.

Lifeleach sounds fun, but looks like it has a short list of times it will be effective. Most Marine lists have Hoods that can stop it, and it's useles against a unit in a vehicle. It may be an answer to deal with IG as it will make it a more difficult choice for Melta or Plasma Vets to take a shot at a creature with it. Especially a Hive Tyrant. "Oh drat, you took away three of my wounds, here I will just kill half your unit and gain 5 wounds, thanks."