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scarletsquig wrote:If you don't want to buy blind, don't buy blind.
That sentence really is all there is to it.

That's not all there is. A company offering a new product "blind" should offer a "New" product or explain otherwise.

That would have been the right thing to do, and Mantic didn't do it. This isn't going to keep me (or others) from ever buying a Mantic product, but it's the truth and it should be pointed out, if only so Mantic might be more forthcoming in the future.

scarletsquig wrote: If you have bought blind, and now want to cancel your order because the orx are half-fantasy, then go and do that, contact mantic, they will give you your refund and take stock of your "cancelled because I'm unsatisfied with the orx" message.

This is a good point.

scarletsquig wrote:
The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.

That's an awful lot of assumptions, and cheating, and fraud are a bit of an escalation over the general feeling of most of the posts you refer to. As one of the main people who did make the point that Mantic was not enitrely forthcoming in it's presale that the figs were re-"arming" of existing fantasy figs, you may see from my postings that I'm not at all a GW fanboy (or even a GW player anymore) and speak positively of many of the existing GW alternatives, including Mantic.

scipio.au wrote:Basically, I've been in these games for long enough to see a long, long line of "challengers" rise and fall. I'd like to see them do a bit better than many in the past have.

But just as I won't shy away from criticising GW or giving them credit where I feel it's due, on business practices, model quality, or anything else - I'll treat Mantic (or PP, whoever) exactly the same.

Overly-empassioned defence of something usually smells like Fanboy. I'll also be honest - having "Mantic Fanatic" in your sig colours your posts, and clearly gives others a perception that you feel they can do no wrong.

Agreed, I hand out criticism when deserved and credit where due.
Wargaming companies do not make good sacred cows.

Actually, I'm one of their biggest critics, on the points where I feel like there is a genuine problem, and not just a minor quibble that the internet is blowing out of proportion.

I simply limit my criticism to purely constructive and non-confrontational efforts in places where a mantic staff member is likely to read them.

I spent a long time doing a review of the WIP Morax sculpts.. when those models were released, a lot of things I'd pointed out were fixed.

I've made long posts commenting on the specifics of bad presentation on some of the pictures for the website, which were noticed by the guy who photoshop them, who then contacted me and asked for more specifics and advice. I made comments about lack of sprue pictures on the site, and that is something which is slowly being added (note that the abyssal dwarfs in the store now display a complete component list along with photographs of everything you get in the box). The recolour-job for the forgefathers I posted here a few pages back should also appear on the mantic blog at some point... if you stop attacking them and actually engage with them as "the 12 different human beings currently employed by mantic" rather than "mantic, the evil faceless megacorp", you might get a better response.

There is a huge difference between "hey mantic, good effort, but X, Y, and Z could use a little improvement next time!", and "Mantic sucks and are just like GW and I hate them and they won't listen".

Fact: When the warpath rules went up for public beta on beasts of war, about half of the people posting on there were all "Mantic sucks, these rules suck, Alessio sucks because of blah blah 4th edition 40k/ changes to 5th and he won't listen to us so this is pointless".. the other half of the people quietly got on with playtesting loads of games, posting their thoughts, making suggestions, and generally just being constructively critical over the course of several months, putting a lot of thought and a lot of work into improving the rules system.

Guess which posts Alessio bothered to read, reply to, and take action on? It sure as hell wasn't the former.


A lot of people wonder why the GW forums got closed down, and it's often cited as an example of "evil GW ignoring it's fans"... the reality of the matter was, the GW forums were a cesspit of flames, trolls and not a single bit of positivity, even during a period of time when GW was doing a lot of things right (think 3rd edition 40k, early 6th edition fantasy... nice cheap minis, specialist games, tons of support). Trust me, I was a member on there with a lot of posts, and I ended up leaving about a year before GW closed it down, just because the place had spiralled out of control and had a community that was totally unwilling to self-moderate.

Mantic listens to people that are willing to engage with them and treat them with a bit of basic human courtesy. They also have a tendency to listen to their actual customers, as opposed to "X anonymous random on the internet who seems to hate mantic no matter what they do".

In short, my "beef" with criticism is not the criticism itself, but the often offensive manner in which it is presented.

Take Jake Thornton, he works for mantic.. made a few fairly reasonable blog posts recently and the internet did nothing but attack him for it. In fact, our first and only picture of the Orx sprue was posted on his blog. As a result of that, he is probably more likely to dismiss or ignore the internet in future, which unfortunately includes people like myself who are capable of tact, self-restraint and communicating in the manner of someone who doesn't come across as an angry nerd with no social skills (even during the parts of my life where I do in fact fit that description. :p ),

"It's the internet" is not an excuse, if you post like that online, you will be ignored in exactly the same way as if you'd said it in real life.

scarletsquig wrote:The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.

Quite to the contrary, I am bitterly disappointed that Mantic is falling short of being any real competition to GW.

lord_blackfang wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.

Quite to the contrary, I am bitterly disappointed that Mantic is falling short of being any real competition to GW.

I'm guess you were looking forward to getting some Marauders for your gangs of Nu Ork game?

In that case, fair point, it is pretty annoying if you're looking forward to something that then doesn't meet your expectations.

All I'll say is, if you're expecting GW-quality in the sculpts on a regular and consistent basic from mantic, don't hold your breath. They might get there in the end, but it won't be anytime soon. I think something we can all agree on is that they have a *long* way to go before any sort of competitor-to-GW status emerges. I think anyone with high hopes should probably tone them down, and I'm saying that as someone who would really love to be proved wrong.

Don't forget, it took Privateer Press well over 5 years to break out of the "niche game" status and finally go mainstream.

I'm simply making the choice to support them and try to help them improve along the way. Not claiming moral high ground on that front, though - there is nothing wrong with waiting until you find their product acceptable before buying into it, and 99% of people will take this route.

If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--they better put their money where their mouth is.

They haven't done that. They're all talk.

Privateer Press may have taken awhile to break out of the "niche game" status, but at least they came out swinging with sculpts that while not in the same vein of GW were on par quality wise.

scarletsquig wrote:
I'm guess you were looking forward to getting some Marauders for your gangs of Nu Ork game?

In that case, fair point, it is pretty annoying if you're looking forward to something that then doesn't meet your expectations.

That too (and I would still like to get my hands on some of the gubbinz like that retro microphone looking thingy) but mostly when I heard about Warpath I was hoping for proper plastic vehicles. I believe GW's near-monopoly of 28mm sci-fi gaming is largely down to the inability of anyone else to produce affordable (more or less...) large vehicle kits.

scipio.au wrote: I'll also be honest - having "Mantic Fanatic" in your sig colours your posts, and clearly gives others a perception that you feel they can do no wrong.

Sry, that is a foruns name, that we make use of. We just use the banner of it to show people it exist. Just take a look at everything, and see if "Mantic Fanatics" act so much as fanboys...

Normally, we point our oppinion, and not only good ones.


I liked the result of the marauders, but dont liked the ways to them. That was my point, Mantic had the chance do to something great, but stucked on regular. (Normally my first reactions to anything are over-reacted anyway, i have to work that on me...).

Perhaps, im still waiting for the FF troopers, and their secrecy on them is annoying me, as i am afraid (not so much) that they come with the same logic (wich would be a deal braker for me). The published works on Forge Fathers, amazed me until now, except for the chosen colors (that a lot of people liked, as a type of joke...)




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Lord Blackfang, i agree with you, but wait more time. Right now their vehicles are using resi-plast, but i can swear that they want to make them is plastic...

Molds are not cheap... Wait a little longer...

I would suggest that most people here better read those two articles by Jake before posting anything further since they apply for Mantic too!

http://quirkworthy.com/2011/09/23/its-a-little-confusing/
http://quirkworthy.com/2011/09/17/dreadfleet-feared-cash-cow-of-the-high-seas/

Oh and this one!
http://quirkworthy.com/2011/09/20/marauder-orx-sprues-from-mantic/

Especially since he sprinkles it with a huge amount of common sense. Something we talk all about, but seldom is used.

Oh, and don´t call me an Mantic-appologist. I am working as a Freelancer in this business, which means that it would be rather stupid to talk BS about companies. Freelancers only survive by judging correctly the good and bad things happening in a company. And believe me, Mantic has it´s share of stupid ideas, too (Seahorse-Cavalry for the Elves anyone?).

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Especially since he sprinkles it with a huge amount of common sense.

I do not agree. He defines them ipso facto as a good kit, and props up a strawman to insult to make them look better. Nobody was asking for the marauders to wear "silver spandex leotards, or smart uniforms with upside-down V logos on the chest", and it was dishonest of him to use that instead of what people actually wanted in his argument.

Yeah, Duncan, I have to agree with AlexHolker here. That article is pretty awful, and does nothing to justify the re-use of those sculpts. I think from this thread it isn't even so much the re-use that is bothersome, but re-use of a terrible sculpt.

It would be as though GW made a 40K Ork Warboss set by tacking on armor and guns to the WHFB Orc Warboss boxed Set. The existing set is hideous. Compounding that with badly done add-ons is just insulting.

Hi folks, Jake here.

I don't want to open the can of worms that is the Orx again - just looking to correct a misunderstanding or two.

I don't work for Mantic full time, just as a freelancer designing the Dwarf King's Hold series of games. Whilst I wish Mantic all the best, I'm not their spokesperson any more than I am a spokesperson for GW, SmartMax or GCT Studios.

Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual. That doesn't make these Mantic Orx any better, I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.

As I have said elsewhere, my reason for posting was to give people a bit more information to go on and try to temper what seemed like ill-informed rants with a few facts.

Finally, if you want to reply I suggest you do so on the relevant thread on Quirkworthy as I'm much more likely to be able to read it and get back to you quickly.

All the best

Jake

I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.

I'll give the standard response before someone else gives it less politely: Consumers of a product have zero interest in the manufacturing and design process.

You may get a few fans of the company such as myself who are willing to take such things into account, but for potential customers as opposed to existing ones, it is of no concern or interest, only the end result is.

Thanks for taking the time to post on here Jake, and for the information! But really I fear the only thing that will quell the unrest is some more pics of painted troops from Mantic on here

I'll give the standard response before someone else gives it less politely: Consumers of a product have zero interest in the manufacturing and design process.

You may get a few fans of the company such as myself who are willing to take such things into account, but for potential customers as opposed to existing ones, it is of no concern or interest, only the end result is.

I agree, I think a fair few of the disgruntled comments have been based on the fact that Mantic have used the KoW line as the Basis for their Warpath Orx, rather than an actual comment regarding the finished product.

Personally, I look at this (probably the most complementary picture so far):



And I get a serious old RT-era vibe about them, the mercenary, slightly sub-humanish orks who were out for hire and for their own gain in the heady days of 1st edition 40k. Yes, they don't have a 'hard sci-fi' look in the way of something like Infinity, but then as Mantic are obviously trying to make Warpath so it can sit alongside GW miniatures, and have a similar aesthetic, I don't think that is a bad thing.

Importantly, regarding the multitude of above posts, I don't see them and immediately think "they are the same model!"



I think there is enough differentiation between them that while they are both readily available as 'orks/orx' they have quite different style elements in the finished products, and I think the effect is cumulative with the other wargear, tanks and special characters you will have moving around on the battlefield as well.

Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual. That doesn't make these Mantic Orx any better, I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.

Which Ork models did they do that with? I've been buying Orks since RT, and I can't think of any that were re-worked fantasy Orcs. The real issue with these new Mantic models (apart from the fact that they're highly derivative) is that Mantic don't seem to have learnt very much from other manufacturers' experience.

Sorry its kinda blurry, but here are some Marauders next to a few other miniatures..

Just got my first real Marauder-sprue today.

And though I will not get me Marauders for personal reasons I would suggest that you better look at it in person.

With the right paint-job they look sci-fi enough for me when it comes to orks. They are different in general design from GW Orks, but in the same style-vein, i.e. high-tech barbarians.

That´s one of the main problems Mantic has: They need to invest more in paint-jobs and presentation of their minis. More often than not their promo-stuff does not do the the minis justice.

Compared to my Undead there is not much I can complain about with the Marauder Sprue. OK, they might be alittle bit on the 2nd/3rd edition side of design... but that´s taste.

And sorry, Jake´s blog-comment is well-informed and of the little-voice-in-my-head-side that one needs when feelings are getting the better of a discussion. And if folks have a problem to see the article at what it is, than I really have to wonder to what kind of gamer the internet-roaming tabletoppers have degenerated to. (And there are more tabletoppers that do not or seldomly roam the internet, just because so much unnecessery vitriol is sprayed about on the internet). And I really hope that this is just momentary impression and I am wrong! Tabletop is still about having fun and if it is about something else you better check your priorities.

There is a reason why so man designers wouldn´t touch forums with a thirty feet poole. Not because they are snobbish, but because only seldomly a good discussion comes from it.

That´s also the reason why I like blogs like Quirkworthy.

I liked the links to Thornton's blog, and he seems to be quite reasonable. As far as degeneration of forums, you do need to bear in mind several things:

Firstly, there's John Gabriel's Greater Internet F*wad Theory (google it).

Secondly, the GW age skews quite young, and while there are plenty of immature 25 year olds out there, obviously 13 and 15 year-olds are going to be more immature as a whole. Based on not actually being mature yet.

Third, and this is a subset of the last point - I know several older-than-I gamers (in their 40's) that would fit in perfectly with the endless, ceaseless, unending criticism of GW while still spending way too much of their earnings with GW.

Fourth, I see no degeneration. It's the same as it ever was. r.g.m.warhammer was exactly the same, only with less moderation.

A few questions about Warpath bases.

-Are the Warpath circular inset bases going to be available separately?

-How wide is the inset circle in the middle?

I'm curious because I have a bunch of vintage spacelords figures and they all have integral bases that look alot like Mantic figures' bases.

I prefer round bases and I'd like to base them up without the added step of puttying the transition from slotta to integral.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

And sorry, Jake´s blog-comment is well-informed and of the little-voice-in-my-head-side that one needs when feelings are getting the better of a discussion. And if folks have a problem to see the article at what it is, than I really have to wonder to what kind of gamer the internet-roaming tabletoppers have degenerated to. (And there are more tabletoppers that do not or seldomly roam the internet, just because so much unnecessery vitriol is sprayed about on the internet). And I really hope that this is just momentary impression and I am wrong! Tabletop is still about having fun and if it is about something else you better check your priorities.

There is a reason why so man designers wouldn´t touch forums with a thirty feet poole. Not because they are snobbish, but because only seldomly a good discussion comes from it.

That´s also the reason why I like blogs like Quirkworthy.

I also often wonder why some people frequent forums...

As for Blogs?

They are "OK", but the obvious disadvantage is that they are, by design, very one-sided.

I really do prefer a discussion.

As for Mantic's latest - I admit it!

I'm biased!

I love the 'old school' vibe here.

Could it have been better? Of course!

But it is still pretty good!

Also, I agree that they should go 'all out' when getting samples painted and photographed - sparing any expense here is NOT a good idea.

Eilif wrote:-Are the Warpath circular inset bases going to be available separately?

Mantic has sales every now and again where you can buy sprues individually, including the bases. Apart from that, probably not.

-How wide is the inset circle in the middle?

15mm.

I'm pretty sure you can regularly buy the square bases.

AlexHolker wrote:

Eilif wrote:
-How wide is the inset circle in the middle?

15mm.

Thanks, that's exactly the same size as the Spacelords base! It was a good idea for mantic to adopt that measurement, since Metal Magic and a few other lines of vintage figures have the same size base. I wonder if anyone buying reissues of these kinds of figs from EM4 or MegaMinis know that there are plastic bases avaialble to match their minis?

Cyporiean wrote:I'm pretty sure you can regularly buy the square bases.

I finally found the bases on Mantic's site, I'm not sure how I missed them before. The squares are available in several different quantities, so I assume that the rounds will be too! Hopefully my FLGS will be able to order them.

Cyporiean wrote:Sorry its kinda blurry, but here are some Marauders next to a few other miniatures..

Im sry, but how do you have one of those marvelous forge fathers? o.O

I really want one of those... that must be good to live so near Mantic HQ

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Cyporiean wrote:Sorry its kinda blurry, but here are some Marauders next to a few other miniatures..

Im sry, but how do you have one of those marvelous forge fathers? o.O

I really want one of those... that must be good to live so near Mantic HQ

I live in Florida, FF is from Gencon.

Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual.

GW Fantasy Orks wear trousers, so the change to SciFi wasn't that hard.
How many modern armies do you know where the soldiers wear no pants?
Starting a new universe where the first two (macho) fractions wear no pants but medieval cloths with the odd bionic eye added, is not what catches the imagination of people wanting to play SciFi. It is just bad and desperate proxying, until you can afford real SciFi miniatures (that are not provided by Mantic). Adding the Humvee clone from the concept sketches would only strengthen this impression.

scipio.au wrote:
Secondly, the GW age skews quite young, and while there are plenty of immature 25 year olds out there, obviously 13 and 15 year-olds are going to be more immature as a whole. Based on not actually being mature yet.

Third, and this is a subset of the last point - I know several older-than-I gamers (in their 40's) that would fit in perfectly with the endless, ceaseless, unending criticism of GW while still spending way too much of their earnings with GW.

Fourth, I see no degeneration. It's the same as it ever was. r.g.m.warhammer was exactly the same, only with less moderation.

Haha yes I agree, I think in some ways that conversations on forums these days are a lot more measured and polite than they used to be, thinking about the old Relic forums and earlier days of B&C and the like, when people used to be getting banned left right and centre. Your first comment about maturity really made me lol by the way

I also often wonder why some people frequent forums...

As for Blogs?

They are "OK", but the obvious disadvantage is that they are, by design, very one-sided.

That's true, although I think sometimes if they are written by someone well informed, or even simply good at writing, they can provide a good platform for information. Thinking back you have blogs such as 'From the Warp' which is a wonderful hub for modelling and painting, or something like 'The Back 40k' which provided a very enlightening article on some of the exploits of GW this summer, and a look under the bonnet as it were (see here http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/help-kirby-is-eating-our-hobby.html)

Or sometimes a blog can be so enthusiastic about something that it pulls you into a new game, (this wonderful article on Infinity, in amongst some great other write-ups on 'Frontline Gamer' http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/infinity-best-game-theres-ever-been.html)

As this thread proves, 'discussion' can sometimes just degenerate into tit-for-tat, just repeating the same old comments in the absence of any new content coming into the thread.

Kroothawk wrote:

Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual.

GW Fantasy Orks wear trousers, so the change to SciFi wasn't that hard.
How many modern armies do you know where the soldiers wear no pants?
Starting a new universe where the first two (macho) fractions wear no pants but medieval cloths with the odd bionic eye added, is not what catches the imagination of people wanting to play SciFi. It is just bad and desperate proxying, until you can afford real SciFi miniatures (that are not provided by Mantic). Adding the Humvee clone from the concept sketches would only strengthen this impression.

Right... Only that your descriptions fits only into one product they have show until now, the marauders troopers, and they even looks nice that way. Just tell me: why they MUST wear pants... They are some type of barbaric rable, that know how to use guns. They have some guns they stole from more advanced races, and they wear protective bits around the vital organs (breast and head, if they fallow the "general vertebrate anatomy").

Give me one good logic explanation for your necessity for pants.

Kanluwen wrote:If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--

Say what? someone explain what hes talking about.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--

Say what? someone explain what hes talking about.

He is saying that mantic made to much noise around their products, and created a lot of expectative. But it should have not made it.

Mantic should have worked like GW, with last century marketing stretegies. You know, Mantic actually use Internet to advise about their products, and we all know it dont work...


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Cyporiean wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Cyporiean wrote:Sorry its kinda blurry, but here are some Marauders next to a few other miniatures..

Im sry, but how do you have one of those marvelous forge fathers? o.O

I really want one of those... that must be good to live so near Mantic HQ

I live in Florida, FF is from Gencon.

Cyporian, would you mind to take a shoot of it side by side with a Space Marine? I really want to know how they stand near GW Pretty Boys

I just need to wait 1 more month to order mine right?

Really? so far I have only seen the glasses guy, sitting alone on a table, of a small office room.

Doesn't seem to flashy...
And also, unlike GW, Mantic still needs exposure. They arnt at the stage yet with world known popularity.