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carmachu wrote:

pretre wrote:@carmachu: infernos are ap1 in codex gk.
Also, I agree that hit and run was nice, but at 22 each before upgrades I never used them in a serious list. I'd love to see a middle ground between cost and rules for Seraphim.

Then you were missing out on alot. I always had one squad. They were great for holding things up, killing or softening units, and general mayhem.

Question: What are inferno pistols in the BA codex? I dont play them.

Nah, I've used them quite a bit, but I have shelved them for competitive uses. I can get a lot more for the points. :(

S8 AP1, 6" Pistol, IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdeptSister wrote:Ok. So can we agree that with the information we have now

Which is incomplete

, a Battle Sister Squad will get beaten by every dedicated assault unit? Or just about any Marine unit?

Sure, just like they would have before if they didn't have BoSL.

My point is unless they brought back BoLS in some form, sisters will be getting run down ALOT.

Yes, without Stubborn, units suffer sweeping advances due to losses.

Unfortunately, since C:WH, BoLS has been a crutch for the sisters so they could have a chance to survive the Assault phase. And unless the Wargear section gives us something like that, sister will suffer badly in the assault phase.

We have historically bad in the assault phase, but we in all the previous iterations had the ability to do major damage in the sub12" shooting range. And I cannot see how Battle Sister Troops will be able the do that massive first strike damage based on the rules provided. Or march up in a large horde across the board without falling back. Sure, if they radically change battle sisters so that the troop unit can now take three or four special weapons (which is against anything we seen for troops in this edition), maybe. But that is not likely.

Perhaps, the change the designers wanted was Sisters players not to have to rely on their Troops to do the bulk of the damage anymore. Heh, we will have the rely on Elites/FA/HS to the damage now possibly. I just find it sad that to adapt, Sisters troop choices will no longer be the core of many Sister armies...

Designers need to learn an army that heavily relies on close range shooting makes assault inevitable. Repressors would have helped greatly.

streamdragon wrote:

AllistorPreist wrote:
But hey, the Seraphim get two shots again and the bondage sisters are no longer lead by a dominatrix, so we got that at least.

But would it have killed them to give the Immolator a flamestorm cannon?

Mistress of Penitence is still there I'm afraid

And I'd never thought of the Flamestorm cannon on Immolators. That would have been excellent.

So funny story. Long ago in Old Timey Times on the Yahoo SOB list (IIRC) we started pitching a wish list for the upcoming codex (turned out to be the chapter approved list... I am seeing a pattern). Sometimes the ideas were good, sometimes they were bad. One that many on the list though was cool, but way over powered was, and tell me if this sounds familiar, a Land Raider that replaced the laser canons with an flame cannon that was str 6 and AP 3.

So I figured that since marines got both the land raider we thought was way OP for the sisters, and the fast Baal predator that can also have the Flamestorm cannon that maybe, and a pair of heavy flamer sponsons, just maybe, they might think it was a good call for the immolator. But i guess twin liked heavy flamers on a glorified tuna can is almost as good right? Not that I'm bitter.

Like I said, it is not so bad as to be unplayable, just bad enough that I don't care to try. Why spend a couple hundred bucks cleaning up a list of such powerful bleh? Maybe when (and if) we get the full codex and some new models they will hook me in, but it is really easy to fade away these days.

SabrX wrote:Designers need to learn an army that heavily relies on close range shooting makes assault inevitable. Repressors would have helped greatly.

Yey. I lack repressor entry in this codex ; they are so special. They are a true difference with other "rhino" mobility armies.

About the difficulties to survive an assault ; we need some more elements but it seems to be bad atm.
I wish to see some more power in short-range to reinforce the strenght of sisters : this will make them more unique.

I guess that the thing I hate the most in this codex, is that it comes in two parts...
We are forced to discussions of little use rather than considering the real challenges of this new requirements.

I really do think if everything is as bad as it sounds then GW are doing this on purpose. They want it to be crap so when the real one is released with a new model range people will lap it up.

Why make an awesome WD Codex with no models for people to buy?!

Why rape our Faith system that was pretty decent and made us stand out?

I just don't understand that with all the latest Codex Creep and uber powerful armies/units that Sisters get handed a pile of gak? (Assumed)

gr1m_dan wrote:I really do think if everything is as bad as it sounds then GW are doing this on purpose. They want it to be crap so when the real one is released with a new model range people will lap it up.

Why make an awesome WD Codex with no models for people to buy?!

Why rape our Faith system that was pretty decent and made us stand out?

I just don't understand that with all the latest Codex Creep and uber powerful armies/units that Sisters get handed a pile of gak? (Assumed)

Well, perhaps it is a good thing that they're at-least giving them a get by codex. It shows that they're at-least still going to write rules for them instead of just letting them "fester". Though I must agree that the game is becoming over saturated with Marines.

ShatteredBlade wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:I really do think if everything is as bad as it sounds then GW are doing this on purpose. They want it to be crap so when the real one is released with a new model range people will lap it up.

Why make an awesome WD Codex with no models for people to buy?!

Why rape our Faith system that was pretty decent and made us stand out?

I just don't understand that with all the latest Codex Creep and uber powerful armies/units that Sisters get handed a pile of gak? (Assumed)

Well, perhaps it is a good thing that they're at-least giving them a get by codex. It shows that they're at-least still going to write rules for them instead of just letting them "fester". Though I must agree that the game is becoming over saturated with Marines.

Except that the only thing that made the WH Codex "worse" than what we've seen of the WD Codex thus far is that it *gasp* had models that appeared in the new GK codex, and thus appeared in two different codices with different stats. The horror.

This isn't a "make it look like we care about the Sisters" thing. This is a "make it not conflict with the GK Codex" thing.

Except that sisters of battle have the dubious distinction of skipping a codex release for TWO editions.

They are also the ONLY 3rd ed codex that hasn't been revised. Everything else is 4th ed or later.

Can someone please explain how the as-of-yet unknown points costs will magically make this codex awesome when they're revealed? How are points costs going to fix the now gakky Faith system? How are points costs going to fix what they did to the immolator? Etc.

I understand where you guys are coming from, but you're putting way too much "faith" in those numbers in my opinion.

scuddman wrote:Except that sisters of battle have the dubious distinction of skipping a codex release for TWO editions.

They are also the ONLY 3rd ed codex that hasn't been revised. Everything else is 4th ed or later.

Apart from Necrons you mean?


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Sidstyler wrote:Can someone please explain how the as-of-yet unknown points costs will magically make this codex awesome when they're revealed? How are points costs going to fix the now gakky Faith system? How are points costs going to fix what they did to the immolator? Etc.

I understand where you guys are coming from, but you're putting way too much "faith" in those numbers in my opinion.

Points costs may make the codex strong enough to be competitive. It depends on what you mean by "awesome"

Melissia wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:I also don't think you understand the meaning of 'mid'.

48" is what you would consider long range, as outside of some 72" or 60" weapons, it is the standard for long range since the beginning.

24" is what you would call mid-range.

12" is what you would call short range.

Exactly, so why are you saying they have mid-ranged power? They don't. Their only power is 3-12" (or 3-18" if you include the 6" move), not at 24".

This is a good point a lot of people seem to miss - Sisters of Battle get 2 turns to kill whatever is rushing them before it hits them and they instantly die, and only one of those turns is in their 'strong' zone.

The idea of Horde Sisters seems like a false economy to me. Aside from the fluff aspect, which is a few hundred Sisters of Battle can cleanse a world of heretics, there's points costs. I honestly cannot see GW reducing the price of the basic Sister below 10. And, if my theory is right and we're looking at Laud Hailers on transports being the new BoSL, any points savings you make will be spent on at least 40 points worth of Rhino+Hailer.

Mythal wrote:

Melissia wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:I also don't think you understand the meaning of 'mid'.

48" is what you would consider long range, as outside of some 72" or 60" weapons, it is the standard for long range since the beginning.

24" is what you would call mid-range.

12" is what you would call short range.

Exactly, so why are you saying they have mid-ranged power? They don't. Their only power is 3-12" (or 3-18" if you include the 6" move), not at 24".

This is a good point a lot of people seem to miss - Sisters of Battle get 2 turns to kill whatever is rushing them before it hits them and they instantly die, and only one of those turns is in their 'strong' zone.

The idea of Horde Sisters seems like a false economy to me. Aside from the fluff aspect, which is a few hundred Sisters of Battle can cleanse a world of heretics, there's points costs. I honestly cannot see GW reducing the price of the basic Sister below 10. And, if my theory is right and we're looking at Laud Hailers on transports being the new BoSL, any points savings you make will be spent on at least 40 points worth of Rhino+Hailer.

This is a good point. I am dubious that we're going to see a massive points drop, and if individual models do get cheaper, I suspect it will be negated by the cost of the upgrades required to make them effective.

Regarding the range of bolters, the 24" range is only effective against an enemy coming towards them. They can be quite easily out shot as they advance by any army with a decent gunline. And then their advance will leave them vulnerable to counter assaults. Unless my 2000pts of Sisters has now become 1000pts, I doubt that this will be a particularly viable tactic. Especially now that the Blood Angels have stolen all of the Sisters Immolators and replaced them with some bits of old tin with an aerosol can and lighter on top.

A kabalite warrior costs 9. It has better WS and I than a sister, but worse armour. It has night vision and power-from-pain, which should be worth as much as wahtever faith stuff the sister gets. And, it has a poisoned weapon that can wound anything, and is otherwise as good as a bolter.

The only thing a sister has on a kabalite warrior, then, is a 3+ instead of a 5+ save. Compared with a Kabalite, I see no reason that a sister should not be nine points.

I is arguably one of the most important stats for cc.

You cannot suggest that a loss of armour is the same as a loss of I.

Redbeard wrote:A kabalite warrior costs 9. It has better WS and I than a sister, but worse armour. It has night vision and power-from-pain, which should be worth as much as wahtever faith stuff the sister gets. And, it has a poisoned weapon that can wound anything, and is otherwise as good as a bolter.

The only thing a sister has on a kabalite warrior, then, is a 3+ instead of a 5+ save. Compared with a Kabalite, I see no reason that a sister should not be nine points.

It's not so much the cost of Sisters that concerns me, but the cost of wargear upgrades to make them a good unit. Maybe they'll still be functional as a horde without any fancy pieces of kit, but I think they'd need to dip below 9 points for that to work, and for the Rets, Doms, and Seras to be significantly cheaper than they are now.

An IG Veteran is 7 points. His Ld is lower, his armor is a nigh-useless 5+, he doesn't have a 6++ save, he has a lasgun instead of a bolter and doesn't have a pistol to fire before charging.

So you're telling me 1 point of Ld, 5+ --> 3+ armor, a 6++ save, bolter AND bolt pistol is worth only 2 points?

Just an example of how comparing a single unit to a single unit is a little disingenuous.

Yeah. Really no point trying to compare units from different codices to eachother for points balance as everything is (in theory) balanced pointwise within its own codex.

Otherwise you could start comparing...

Genestealers, Chaos Space Marines, SW Grey Hunters and Grey Knights in PA.

The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

While I would love to believe that, do you have a source?

Yes.

Well played. Well played.

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

If that was the case why bother with this codex at all? Its not going to sell a ton of models and its not firing up the base about sisters. Its not as if the article is really asking for playtest feedback and GW does not have a normal channel for doing so. I discount emails and letters to customer service as normal avenues as that is not thier stated function. If GW solicited feedback for it there would be a spot on the website on where to send it. Oh and too late about people deciding they hate it. You can't put out an army rules ection so lackluster for a codex and not expect people to hate it. Has anyone really liked any of the recet WD army lists (Blood Angels or WoC) or have they just accepted it because they have no choice?

There are several reasons for this codex.

1. Bring Sisters of Battle models in line with everything else; make rhinos have 2 fire points, fix points, give crusaders 3++ storm shields, etc. Of course through laziness or some bizarre strategy they've created a situation where there are two stat lines for arco flagellants but whatever.

2. Remove all stuff like allies and Witchhunter units from the army list. They tried to do this clumsily by putting the PDF on their website but didn't do a very good job when they immediately released a statement saying that if you had the old book it was still totally valid after sneaking a few pages out of the file.

3. Make sure that units that will be in the new codex are represented in a reasonably similar fashion to what they eventually will end up as. Warriors of Chaos book was very bland but the goal was to give people something to use for a few months. It was there to also make sure that new players didn't pick up Warhammer Armies Chaos, buy up beastmen and demons then get pissed when Warhammer Armies Warriors of Chaos came out and all of their purchases were illegal to field. Of course whenever an army is shaken up someone is going to get screwed, but at least that way the effect is someone alleviated.

No where on that list is "make a playable army" or "sell more models" although if this resulted in an upsurge in Sister sales it wouldn't be unappreciated. It's very clear Cruddance was handed a list of stuff he needed to include by the codex author (I am assuming its not him but whatever) and was told "don't rock any boats with this, we don't want a stupid WD codex overshadowing actual releases with some kind of exploitable gimmick" and he threw it together in an afternoon. The faith system is a focal feature of the army but the writing has been on the wall for more simple rules.

The irritating thing about this list isn't that it sucks (which it does despite some people desperately trying to pretend 8 point sisters will save it), but that the culture of secrecy surrounding the Games Workshop company means we have no idea when the real book is coming out and what sort of direction its going to take. If it was a three month deal it would be fine but we are hearing end of 2012 at the earliest and that's assuming all 40k releases after 6th and even then its very unlikely to fit into that time scheme. So we are stuck with a boring hold over until 2013 (or maybe later WHO KNOWS!) more than likely which is the depressing part of all this.

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well.

These sentences don't make sense together. Unless your source is saying that there are more bestiary articles in next month's White Dwarf, the only Sisters unit that hasn't already been playtested by virtue of 8 years in C:WH is the Sororitas Command Squad - every other 'new' unit doesn't feature Sisters and, largely, has already been playtested in advance of Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Imperial Guard. Of the non-Sisters units that 'need' playtesting, you just have the Special Characters and the Confessor HQ.

On the flip-side, if you're saying Games Workshop is basically wanting to playtest the new Faith system, I find that worrying - it implies they've made the changes to Faith without actually accounting for them in advance or revising the structure of the army around them, which can't be a good thing. I seriously doubt Games Workshop, for all people rag on them, would have made changes like these without some seriously exhaustive internal testing - else they'd be explicitly using their paying customers (who, as Sisters players, pay more than any army except IG for their basic troops choice) to save having to hire playtesters, and that's too cynical for me to attribute to them.

Tabitha wrote:But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

I hope you're right here - a big part of me is concerned that White Dwarf might become the sole source of future Sisters of Battle Codices, with the much-vaunted 5-sister Plastics box slipping out some time a year or more down the road as the last investment the army receives. It'd be better than Squatting, but not by much.

I'm fairly certain no playtesting went into this list at all which is why most of the stuff is exactly the same with only small differences or outright nerfs (I3 on assault units, slower Penitent Engines, worse Immolators, etc). The only goal here from a gameplay perspective is to make sure it doesn't embarrass the company by accidentally being too powerful and crushing real army books.

Ixquic wrote:There are several reasons for this codex.

1. Bring Sisters of Battle models in line with everything else; make rhinos have 2 fire points, fix points, give crusaders 3++ storm shields, etc. Of course through laziness or some bizarre strategy they've created a situation where there are two stat lines for arco flagellants but whatever.

2. Remove all stuff like allies and Witchhunter units from the army list. They tried to do this clumsily by putting the PDF on their website but didn't do a very good job when they immediately released a statement saying that if you had the old book it was still totally valid after sneaking a few pages out of the file.

3. Make sure that units that will be in the new codex are represented in a reasonably similar fashion to what they eventually will end up as. Warriors of Chaos book was very bland but the goal was to give people something to use for a few months. It was there to also make sure that new players didn't pick up Warhammer Armies Chaos, buy up beastmen and demons then get pissed when Warhammer Armies Warriors of Chaos came out and all of their purchases were illegal to field. Of course whenever an army is shaken up someone is going to get screwed, but at least that way the effect is someone alleviated.

No where on that list is "make a playable army" or "sell more models" although if this resulted in an upsurge in Sister sales it wouldn't be unappreciated. It's very clear Cruddance was handed a list of stuff he needed to include by the codex author (I am assuming its not him but whatever) and was told "don't rock any boats with this, we don't want a stupid WD codex overshadowing actual releases with some kind of exploitable gimmick" and he threw it together in an afternoon. The faith system is a focal feature of the army but the writing has been on the wall for more simple rules.

The irritating thing about this list isn't that it sucks (which it does despite some people desperately trying to pretend 8 point sisters will save it), but that the culture of secrecy surrounding the Games Workshop company means we have no idea when the real book is coming out and what sort of direction its going to take. If it was a three month deal it would be fine but we are hearing end of 2012 at the earliest and that's assuming all 40k releases after 6th and even then its very unlikely to fit into that time scheme. So we are stuck with a boring hold over until 2013 (or maybe later WHO KNOWS!) more than likely which is the depressing part of all this.

This makes good sense to me.

...not that it makes me happy about the sisters being crap....

I'm ok with it though. I can play DE and GK for a year or so. By the time sisters comes out I'll be ready for a new army.

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

OK, so how do we report back our experiences of the playtesting?

htj wrote:OK, so how do we report back our experiences of the playtesting?

HA!

Wow. That was good, htj... People in my office are looking at me funny right now. Oh wait, you were serious?

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:OK, so how do we report back our experiences of the playtesting?

HA!

Wow. That was good, htj... People in my office are looking at me funny right now. Oh wait, you were serious?

No, actually, I wasn't. Although it was perhaps a little too dry for the medium. Glad you took it in the spirit it was intended though.