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Ixquic wrote:No where on that list is "make a playable army" or "sell more models" although if this resulted in an upsurge in Sister sales it wouldn't be unappreciated.

"Make a playable army" is a necessary component of the first two points on your list. You can't render Codex: Witch Hunters obsolete if everyone decides to keep using Codex: Witch Hunters instead of your new rules.

Games Workshop couldn't care less what you use in your basement along with your old Tyranid codex and 6th edition Warhammer Fantasy rulebook. If you are in their stores, events or tournaments however you will be using this list and as far as their concern for how the hobby is seen that's 100% of the people playing.

I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

Ixquic wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

I though that hope for a real release wasn't realistic. I thought at most it was going to be an excuse to convert a mostly metal line over to finecast, until plastics could be done.

Ixquic wrote:I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

If that. Having played sisters for quite some time, it is no surprise that it will be quite some time before any new models come out. After all, the majority of the ones that we currently have were good enough to last 15 years or so, I'm sure they will hold out for another 5 or 10.

That is why, in all seriousness, I focus more on the whole picture of the rules. The rules will far more affect what we deal with for a while than any rumors of new models. Once we see the whole WD codex, I'll make a judgement from there. I don't imagine it will be worse than black book sisters and probably not as good as my nostalgia for C: CA sisters. Sisters players are used to getting by and making any crazy WD list competitive. We've had to do it before... we'll do it again.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

I though that hope for a real release wasn't realistic. I thought at most it was going to be an excuse to convert a mostly metal line over to finecast, until plastics could be done.

Originally there a bunch of news regarding new plastics and such and then when "Sisters release!" rumors started flying people made the logical connection that they were finally going to update the army proper. It wasn't until the BoK rumors that the idea of a WD codex really got legs (there were whispers before) and many people didn't even believe it then; I know I didn't.

I can understand them wanting to update certain Sister's units to the new standard (e.g. Rhinos) but that didn't necessitate the changes put forward in this "Dex". It didn't require removing a variety of units for (almost) nothing in return.

I guess Chaos marine players should be afraid then, as I understand their book is next.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

I though that hope for a real release wasn't realistic. I thought at most it was going to be an excuse to convert a mostly metal line over to finecast, until plastics could be done.

Some of the old stuff, mostly HQ options, will be avaliable in fine cast, but almost everything in the army is getting new models. Again of course most of the new HQ models will be fine cast as will one of the elite choices, but almost everything else is plastic. And it wont be 2 years before they release. Sisters will be here by this time next year.

Maybe ill start a sisters of battle army...

Tabitha wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

I though that hope for a real release wasn't realistic. I thought at most it was going to be an excuse to convert a mostly metal line over to finecast, until plastics could be done.

Some of the old stuff, mostly HQ options, will be avaliable in fine cast, but almost everything in the army is getting new models. Again of course most of the new HQ models will be fine cast as will one of the elite choices, but almost everything else is plastic. And it wont be 2 years before they release. Sisters will be here by this time next year.

Assuming this is on the level (sorry, but there are a lot of nonsense rumour posters out there) where would this tie in to a potential sixth edition? Or are you not privy to this information?

Tabitha wrote:
Some of the old stuff, mostly HQ options, will be avaliable in fine cast, but almost everything in the army is getting new models. Again of course most of the new HQ models will be fine cast as will one of the elite choices, but almost everything else is plastic. And it wont be 2 years before they release. Sisters will be here by this time next year.

Do you think the Finecast versions will be saved for when the new plastic models are released next year or will we atleast see them sooner than the others?

htj wrote:

Tabitha wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the reaction to this WD list is overly harsh, given how the Blood Angels codex turned out after their WD article. I'm not saying that their codex was the best ever but there was a clear improvement between the WD and book release, despite players' initial concerns. There will be new units and any of the old stuff getting new models will likely be priced or written so you can have more than you need... GW is predicatble.

I agree. For me it's less that this list is lame (I think many of us saw that coming) but that the original rumor was that this was going to be a real release and the realization that it may be two more years before we see anything sucks.

I though that hope for a real release wasn't realistic. I thought at most it was going to be an excuse to convert a mostly metal line over to finecast, until plastics could be done.

Some of the old stuff, mostly HQ options, will be avaliable in fine cast, but almost everything in the army is getting new models. Again of course most of the new HQ models will be fine cast as will one of the elite choices, but almost everything else is plastic. And it wont be 2 years before they release. Sisters will be here by this time next year.

Assuming this is on the level (sorry, but there are a lot of nonsense rumour posters out there) where would this tie in to a potential sixth edition? Or are you not privy to this information?

Yes from how I've heard it explained the release of 6th edition only leaves time for two real releases by the end of 2012 and one of those is going to be the box set and the other will always be marines.

Sigh. I'd be tempted to sell out, but I suspect the Ebay price for Sisters has fallen every day this week. I'm tempted to ship GW HQ a nice flask of thioacetone in a jack-in-the-box.

And I suspect 'Sisters will be here by this time next year' actually means 'Maybe in 6th after SM, Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, DA, BT, and Tau.' The only way they'll hit in 2012 is if they come in the 6th Ed box, or if they are serious about 'everybody updated before 6th' and 2012 is Sisters and Tau.

On the plus side, anyone who ever bothered running the stock Superior with plasma pistol never needs to worry about Gets Hot! again - just stick them in standard BS squads

The Grog wrote:...or if they are serious about 'everybody updated before 6th'...

Ah, but don't you see? They have been updated. This is their update.

After reading the new dex and it's crippling effect on our Nuns with Guns I say we light a huge bonfire and have our minis burn their bras in protest! Who's with me!?!

2000 Volts wrote:After reading the new dex and it's crippling effect on our Nuns with Guns I say we light a huge bonfire and have our minis burn their bras in protest! Who's with me!?!

I'll give you a bunch of metal slag that you can toss in instead... you can then hand me your SoB... you'll get the same result and I'll put them to use! We both win!

Well, firstly, I've watched people struggle to drop 90 orks. So 90 sisters in armour would be fun if only to watch your opponent's face drop when you put them out.

90 Sisters in Power Armour can be yours for the bargain price of only £322.50! That's a bargain price for 14 year old sculpts folks! Step right up!

I have a small Sisters army, with a good core range of troops - without new models I hope they don't become a horde army, even so I like the idea - although I still see them being from 10-12 points - if they're 9 they would have done very well for themselves. I'm disappointed Immolators aren't fast vehicles - I think it would suit them and would also solve the move and flame issue. I'd more easily accept the lack of move and flame if they got the double-heavy flamer template from 2nd Ed



As it is I don't think they are fluffy enough - Sisters are a bunch of psychos and fast Immolators would only suit them. Burn Heretics!

@Melissia: Cheer up, in a parallel universe another Melissia gets Immolators that are both fast AND get the conjoined flame templates of doom, whilst Sisters remain at I4! Who knows Holy Promethean could get a +1Str boost? Maybe...

To be honest I think I3 is quite suitable for them, they are only human after all...

I'm still waiting for the 2nd half before I weep into my Fleur-de-lis chalice only to let Ward/Cruddace/whoever drink the tears of potential woe - even then I'll still give the rules a go. The whole things given me impetous to re-paint my little army now I've finally chosen a scheme

I think SoB suffer from what Chaos marines suffer from, neither have had their champion on the design staff... neither have been given the attention necessary to flesh them out as more than just another power armored army on the table top. The SoB predicament is more challenging, where Chaos suffers from too many characterization, SoB have few... and while there are these distinct flavors of Chaos to distinguish them, SoB have to ride it out in this awkward valley between IG and Marines as to what they're capable, with only their "faith" to distinguish them. Marines are the benchmark by which all the other armies are created relative to, meanwhile the innate power creep of all codices has had IG edge up a bit... I think this exacerbates the boxing in of the SoB. My biggest concern for SoB is that GW doesn't cheat SoB and do the lazy thing by just giving them more marine or IG equipment.

warspawned wrote:90 Sisters in Power Armour can be yours for the bargain price of only £322.50! That's a bargain price for 14 year old sculpts folks! Step right up!

See now your bing the pessimist. Here in the states I can get those same 90 sisters for just $518 dollars (plus shipping and handling since they are mail order only) a savings of over £6. Well assuming that I don't want any special weapons, heavy weapons, leaders, preachers or icon bearers, those girls are expensive.

And that is part of the reason a lot of people are not swayed by the idea that the point cost could fix everything. A point cost reduction means buying more of the same old models, the models that have changed minimally over the last 14 years and have the same 7 poses. And now we get to buy them at inflated prices through mail order only, none of that 20% off the clever shoppers may find and not even a hint of finecasts for the characters.

Like I said, not the End of the World, just massive, uninspiring, dissapointing, apathy inducing meh. But hey, maybe next year (or the year after, unless it gets pushed back or the rumors were wrong) we will get a new codex with new models and the plastice repressesor that has been rumored since the third ed Chaper Approved codex. After all, look what happened to the blood angels. But Sisters are not the blood angels, sadly they are not even the Dark Eldar and what I have been shown so far is not inspiring in any way.

Keeping the faith just got a little harder, that's all I am really saying.

Despite my feelings on this WD codex, I wonder if this means Sisters will be getting more support in the way of articles for Apocalypse, Planetstrike, and Battle Missions. We just got a note in the Citis of Death update which is refershing to see so I am hoping for the best. If we get some more cool goodies in that regard maybe it will keep the faith alive just long enough for a real codex to come out.

Anybody have any thoughts or knowledge on that?

Yeaaaah, I really don't want to buy any more second edition Sisters of Battle models.

The girls haven't aged well, as it were.

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB suffer from what Chaos marines suffer from, neither have had their champion on the design staff... neither have been given the attention necessary to flesh them out as more than just another power armored army on the table top. The SoB predicament is more challenging, where Chaos suffers from too many characterization, SoB have few... and while there are these distinct flavors of Chaos to distinguish them, SoB have to ride it out in this awkward valley between IG and Marines as to what they're capable, with only their "faith" to distinguish them. Marines are the benchmark by which all the other armies are created relative to, meanwhile the innate power creep of all codices has had IG edge up a bit... I think this exacerbates the boxing in of the SoB. My biggest concern for SoB is that GW doesn't cheat SoB and do the lazy thing by just giving them more marine or IG equipment.

The comparison with SM is why the army struggles a bit conceptually...which then creates a domino effect into their rules.

Back when Sisters were a tiny bit of fluff and a piece of artwork in the RT book, people talked about them as "female space marines." And although GW worked hard to fully develop their religious themes and concepts in the many years since they became a proper army, I think "girls in power armor" still comes to most hobbyists' minds quicker than "militant religious fanatics." I don't think it helped that Codex: WH brought in the whole =I= angle that diluted and distracted from the Ecclesiarchy themes. So I think a returned focus on the Ecclesiarchy is a very good thing for the army, because that will steer their rules, creation of new units, etc. into a more distinct and unique path.

IMO, the comparison with BA is right on. The WD article was bland as can be, while their eventual codex -- whether or not you like the themes and concepts involved -- is anything but bland.

Why can't SoB players keep the faith?

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB suffer from what Chaos marines suffer from, neither have had their champion on the design staff... neither have been given the attention necessary to flesh them out as more than just another power armored army on the table top.

CSMs have had tons of attention. They had a codex in second, two codices in third, and one in fourth, the only edition they lack a codex in is fifth.

True, a lot of their players complain that the codices aren't good enough, but the fact remains that they've gotten quite a bit of attention.

Sisters had a second edition codex, and a third edition codex where they were shoehorned into an inquisition book.

Re Immolators not being fast, I'm wondering if there will be an upgrade available, Blessed Engines or something that would make them so. Isn't that how the BA used to be?

Probably not.

They had overcharged engines where you rolled and on a 6 they were fast and a 1 they couldn't move since they overheated or something along those lines.

LavuranGuard wrote:Re Immolators not being fast, I'm wondering if there will be an upgrade available, Blessed Engines or something that would make them so. Isn't that how the BA used to be?

4th Ed BA had a special rule for each vehicle called 'Over-charged engines' which had a chance of failure. It wasn't a separate purchaseable upgrade. Chances are, and I could be wrong here, that they would have included that information in the first half of the WD codex.

But Sisters are not the blood angels, sadly they are not even the Dark Eldar and what I have been shown so far is not inspiring in any way.

Keeping the faith just got a little harder, that's all I am really saying.

I agree. I think the problem is Sisters have been left on the back-burner too long, they arrived before the Dark Eldar were ever really mentioned and since their last Codex have just been left well alone (we never did see Xenoshunters either). This is where I feel GW's 'Wave' policy fails in some degree - if they have the model's ready, why not just release them? If they had a plastic repressor kit or a box of sisters, why not release them and keep the army ticking over - we're starting to see little 'off-kilter' releases now with the unexpected Vampire Counts stuff (although if you look at the Storm of Magic results it may seem like a ploy to get people's interest before the fact - I smell conspiracy!) - I hope this trend continues across the board and we see more 'random' releases for both 40k & Warhammer.

The Sister's needed a well done update to have made the project worth while, it remains to be seen if it has been - it's not just points costs but also the armoury and composition (although they're not as important as the rules, granted). You think the least they could have done was throw in a plastic character or two (and they still might - but I doubt it) to help make it more of an occassion. At least we've seen the named Preachers return, if only they brought back the Militia and put in the Repressor as well - an extra page could have made it a lot more interesting for us. For people who get paid to create, it seems a little lacking in that department (although they're probably saving all that stuff for the actual Codex - they still could have sweetened the pot a little more IMHO).

The girls haven't aged well, as it were.

I don't know, I still quite like the minis - maybe I just like older women