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Azuza001 wrote:
So the phobos Tenebrous Curse spell and Jaws of the world wolf is suddenly a huge and nasty option. The spells both say pick a visible unit within 18", obviously jaws says no flyers or vehicles, but you could devour enemy chrs with this. I mean turn their movement to 3" then roll 2d6? Every point over 3 is a mortal wound?! Bwa hahahaha buh bye Azreal, you pompus dark angel bastard! Lol.

Definitely when I saw this I had an aha moment. I tried the wulfen with the Phobos priestthis weekend. Worked amazingly. Both occasions using a 10 man squad of wulfen with hammers and axes. In a 16,000pt Apoc game took 30 wounds off a reaver titan in the initial charge. Not long after opponents forfeit stealing my kill but proving it's worth. 2nd game was at 2k. They charged and killed a brass scorpion and then survived it detonating and ate skarbrand and a daemon prince. Wulfen really punch above their weight class. This new tactic really is gold.

Azuza001 wrote:
That is a pretty good use of the combo, i gave up on wulfen from outflank due to the abnormally high failure rate i was having, but that may be the help that idea needs to work more reliably.

It is actually pretty amazing how often they manage to fall short in spite of having natural re-rolls to charge as well as the potential option to command point re-roll a single dice.

Well since learning this trick with the Phobos priest warlord I have had great success with my Wulfen. I made a list around an assault bomb that will come in from teleport/on the hunt. The suppressors will do what they do allowing safer charges for the bomb units. The cav will follow the land raider full of wolf guard and they will be protected by the land raider popping smoke+ tempest wrath spell + storm strat for -2 to hit and potentially-3 depending on the firer. Priests psychic things. In turn 2 hopefully land raider is alive and close enough to discharge the wolf guard in charge range. Position them to benefit from Wulfen reroll to charge and +1 charge from Phobos warlord. Arjac provides wolfguard, cav, terminators, and canis +1 attack. Turn 3 onward wulfen also give +1 attack. Should be a fun list and I’ll probably use it to focus on 1 flank. Could be disastrous if some key roles don’t come through for the minuses to hit. Also have plenty of psychic to deal with hordes. The curse plus jaws combo will be exciting. Thoughts?

My gut reaction is you dont have enough cp to make that work past turn 1. Thats only 6 cp total for that army. You need to get within range for one of your spells to go off t1 to pop the strat as all of your powers are offensive in nature, dont get in range no -1 to hit. Even if you do, assuming denys and failed attempts require a cp to reroll if things go bad leaves you with 2cp. And thats assuming your not spending any cp to outflank anything with the strat.

Otherwise it may work, give it a shot and let us know.

Depending on deployment type I could start the warlord on the board and use him to increase movement and advance speed of the on board units. That would leave only 1cp to hunt the wulfen and 5 for other things. The priests don’t shoot so advancing them is no problem. Having multiple powers that cost 5 and 6 should be easy enough to get off and proc the strat. Tempests wrath is 24” range and with a minimum of 14” movement/advance that will be at least 32” range on the power. It has worked for me twice before but was with Dawn of war deployments. -3 to hit on a land raider is gross.

I’m still torn between starting the Warlord in reserves with the Walden or on the board with the bikes.

I have been recently thinking about wolfguard and the many buff they can receive to their attacks and it has me thinking. If I equip them with double chainsword they would be at 6 attacks with arjac and wulfen or the wulfen stone buffing them. They could potentially have more if you were to take a warlord and field commander with the abilities are proc’d leading to 8 attacks each. Would be excellent vs hordes. I happen to have a few ork players and a couple Nid players at my FLGS.

I run my wolf guard as cheap as possible in term armor. 5 of them with storm bolters and storm shields gives you 20 shots at 24" + 5" movement for a very small price and small footprint. Set them up on the top of a building in cover and you have a squad that cant be charged (assuming your covering the entire floor so they cant put a model up there with them) that can put out good shots at a good range with a 1+/3++ save (obviously 1's still fail on armor saves but 2+ saves vs autocannons is nice to have).

Wolves are in a weird position. They want to attack in cc, but only once their shooting has thinned the numbers down enough to make it work. You could pour those regular guys into cc and they will have a ton of attacks for sure, but all its going to take is a countercharge and they will fall easily.

If your going to try that i suppose you could ask your opponent if you could substitute regular guys for double chainsword guys and test it out. I would do that before actually modeling a bunch of models up.

I had planned on bringing them in a landraider in two squads of 5 each with the leader wielding a hammer and shield. I only use LR crusaders so I can thin units before making contact plus the ability to charge with it and possibly cause mortals. I also use smoke turn 1 combined with tempests wrath and the cloaked by the storm strat. Gives the land raider a -2 or -3 to hit. On a T8 2+ save it’s not to shabby. I’ve had good success with it thus far.

Iam going to use this list in a highlander style( every datasheet can be used once) game 1500 pts this weekend

Battalion

HQ

WolfLord with jumpack (Thunder hammer/Storm shield/wulfenstone) [ Saga of wolfkin ]

Runepriest with jumpack (force stave,armour of russ) [tempest wrath,living lightning, smite]


TROOPS

5xIntercessors (5xbolt rifles,1xgrenade launcher)

5xBloodclaws (1xpowerfist)

5xGrey hunters (1xpowerfist,1xplasma gun)


ELITES

5x WG terminators (3xSS/combi plasma,2xpowerfist/combi plasma)

Venerable dreadnought (twin lascannon/missile launcher)


FAST ATTACK

4xThunderwolves (3xStormshields/chainswords, leader: stormshield/powerfist)


HEAVY SUPPORT

5xlongfangs (4xplasma cannons)

FLYER

Stormfang gunship (2xlascannons,2xtwin heavy bolters, helfrost destructor)


TRANSPORTS

rhino (2xstorm bolter)


1500 on the nose and 7cp to spend (-1 CP for 2 relics)


TACTIC

Bloodclaws enter the stormfang, greyhunters enter the rhino joined by longfangs who stay protected if i go second. First turn rhino dissebarks longfangs into cover ready to fire with
keen senses and wolf's eye, they also get 3" + 6" move added to 36" plasma cannon. Ven dread stays on a base objective providing long range fire support maybe popping wisdom of the
ancients if needed. Intercessors also stay in the back/middle for objective camping/bolter discipline. Terminators go in reserves to support my moving forward force in turn two.
The stormfang with the bloodclaws, the rhino with the grey hunters, the thunderwolves and the HQs move forward and advance (the rhino pops smoke). The runepriest uses the -1 to hit strat.
The HQs have enough space to heroicly intervene if anything charges my rhino,stormfang or T-wolves. I chose thunderwolves over wulfen although they are very expensive for the following reasons
1. You get more wounds and toughness for a little over 200 pts.
2. Dammage 2 weapons are everywhere and hurt wulfen a lot
3. Wulfen must most of the time use the 1cp outflank and it is difficult to get that 9" charge which can also be countered by a smart opponent
4. Thunderwolves can get +1 attack from wulfenstone

So I have may have a game against GSC tomorrow. My plan is to take a Phobos wolf lord with saga of majesty for 15” deepstrike denial bubble. Anyone played against GSC and have any advice? My plan was to try and target the characters and limit their buffs. I know my opponent likes to use the abominant and the patriarch.

Gsc is one of the hardest armies you will ever face if you don't know what to expect or one of the easiest if you do. They ambush, thats their thing. If you play the early game defensively, spreading your guys out for proper screening, putting weak stuff out there just to keep the real threats protected from the massive deep strike / assault that will be coming, and then hard counter attack when they do show up, you will be fine.

Targeting the charecters isnt going to happen. All those damn infantry guys near the chrs can be passed wounds like a tau drone. Instead mass bolter fire the infanty first and wipe them out. The individual chrs are not a big threat without the large blobs to buff. Even a patriarch (their broodlord version) while incredibly strong in cc and tough should die to a wolf lord charging in if you have the cp to keep fighting.

So yeah, my advice.

1. Screen and do it twice. The new shadowspear primaris with their 12" no ds bubble as your first line then cheap 5 man troop options as your second 9" line.

2. Keep your cool. Early game its easy to over deploy considering that they wont have a lot on the table. Dont fall for it. Hold your side and do the best you can to do as much dmg to their long range support without pulling yourself out of position. Any long range / no los needing weapons will be super useful for this. Whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, predators, long fangs will all be very useful for this.

3. Play the mission. Early game is crucial for this, you want to be even with your opponent, or even a vp down is ok, but play the entire game not the first few rounds. Let him take the center objective turn 2 for example if it means he is pulling something out of cover to get it and then destroy that unit. You need to be tied with him by t4 so that t5 you can take the lead, but until then hold and play long distance.

4. Once he commits and you lose your front line thats when you counter charge with that 2nd line which thankfully wolves can do incredibly well. Between our basic troops getting 2 shots with the bolters then another 2 attacks hitting on 2's in cc we can really put the hurt out with that sudden rush. Think of it as holding the reins on a massive beast then finally letting the boys free to fight.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

Azuza001 wrote:
Gsc is one of the hardest armies you will ever face if you don't know what to expect or one of the easiest if you do. They ambush, thats their thing. If you play the early game defensively, spreading your guys out for proper screening, putting weak stuff out there just to keep the real threats protected from the massive deep strike / assault that will be coming, and then hard counter attack when they do show up, you will be fine.

Targeting the charecters isnt going to happen. All those damn infantry guys near the chrs can be passed wounds like a tau drone. Instead mass bolter fire the infanty first and wipe them out. The individual chrs are not a big threat without the large blobs to buff. Even a patriarch (their broodlord version) while incredibly strong in cc and tough should die to a wolf lord charging in if you have the cp to keep fighting.

So yeah, my advice.

1. Screen and do it twice. The new shadowspear primaris with their 12" no ds bubble as your first line then cheap 5 man troop options as your second 9" line.

2. Keep your cool. Early game its easy to over deploy considering that they wont have a lot on the table. Dont fall for it. Hold your side and do the best you can to do as much dmg to their long range support without pulling yourself out of position. Any long range / no los needing weapons will be super useful for this. Whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, predators, long fangs will all be very useful for this.

3. Play the mission. Early game is crucial for this, you want to be even with your opponent, or even a vp down is ok, but play the entire game not the first few rounds. Let him take the center objective turn 2 for example if it means he is pulling something out of cover to get it and then destroy that unit. You need to be tied with him by t4 so that t5 you can take the lead, but until then hold and play long distance.

4. Once he commits and you lose your front line thats when you counter charge with that 2nd line which thankfully wolves can do incredibly well. Between our basic troops getting 2 shots with the bolters then another 2 attacks hitting on 2's in cc we can really put the hurt out with that sudden rush. Think of it as holding the reins on a massive beast then finally letting the boys free to fight.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

I mostly play GSC, and I completely agree with all this advice.

I'll tell you what makes me happy when I play GSC, so you can avoid that
- Deep strike areas near long range shooting units.

- A screening unit that I can remove with the Lying in Wait stratagem and 20 acolytes with hand flamers. (With lots of CPs this is doable in the movement phase to open up for another unit to drop in in the opening created)

- An army that only castles up in a corner and lets me claim all the objectives.

- lots of anti tank weapons. (most gsc armies are made up of only infantry, so lascannons etc are pretty wasted)

What frustrates me or threatens me when I play GSC, so you can aim for that
- lots of anti infantry shooting/melee. Most of the army is just T3 and 5+ saves...

- tarpit units that will delay my assault units until they are spent

- well deployed screens that can fall back and allow me to be shot

- units that can survive one of my charges and fight back

- mobility (a typical GSC army is just infantry, and can't really redeploy effectively after they deep strike)

- "no deepstrike" bubbles

Good luck!
I'm looking forward to your report :-)

So I had to reschedule our game vs. GSC the guy couldn’t make it. So I played against a Chaos knight player instead. I took the below list. He took 3 big knights and 3 baby knights. His warlord was a nasty close combat knight supported by the chaos version of Castellan, a battle cannon, knight and 3 autocannon war dogs. I brought tons of TH and SS. 19 in total I believe. We were both a hair over 2k. 2010 for me. We played on a board with good amount of buildings as cover and dawn of war deployment. He deployed first spreading his forces evenly. I counterdeployed all in one corner with two wulfen squads in deepstrike and terminators in teleporter. I stole initiative and ran straight up the right flank. Got off tempests wrath on a baby knight and used cloaked strat for -1 for all my units in 6” and also popped smoke on raider. I weather the storm of shooting from chaos Castellan and 2 baby knights only losing two thunder wolf cav. Turn two I move up, and charge with everyone wulfen lending rerolls to those who need it. Since he moved towards me it allowed a lot of successful charges and most units made it into combat. 1 squad of wulfen came in from hunt and charged baby knights. Conflagration cannon etc ate 4 out of 5 Wulfen from land raider squad. I crippled the Castellan down to 3 wounds and when he charged in with his warlord on his turn and deleted my battle leader I crippled him down to 2 wounds by heroically intervening with 3 other characters. By the end of my turn 3 I killed the warlord, Castellan, and two baby knights as well as the relic. He only had one large and one small knight left and he forfeit. It was a fun match. With -2 and -3 on the land raider he didn’t even bother shooting it keeping arjac and a wulfen squad alive and well until delivery. It’s was a fun match.

Thats a lot of ss/th right there! Great to hear of the victory.

Guys Im looking for a blatantly competitive build to play / try out.
Not sure who opponents will be but it will be maelstrom missions.
I dont own any TWC so they are out.

Apart from that have most oldmarine units and dont mind trying out proxies for numarines.

Any good builds I can check / review?

Iists? Not really. But i can tell you what has worked very well for me.

Triple predators with wolf lord / wolf guard battle leader / njal priest as a castle. I normally also run 2 whirlwinds with this castle. Everything stays within 6" of the chrs. If you go first njal casts storm caller and then pops -1 to hit strat. This protects everything incredibly well. Preds then kill shot whatever they want. I run my preds as autocannon / twin laz on 2 and autocannon / heavy bolters on the 3rd. If you go 2nd prepaired positions is key as well as hiding as much out of los as possible/ as far back as possible.

10 man grey hunter squads with 3 plasma guns and a plasma pistol outflanking with a wolf lord. I normally run 3 like this but 2 work just as well. Outflank a wold lord with them.

5 man wolf scout pack with max plasma. Its a cheap squad and probably wont survive the game but they outflank for free and have a small foot print so can get where others cant.

Rune priest in phobos armor / rune priest with jump pack combo. Outflank the phobos priest, ds the jump priest. Have them come in together. Phobos casts curse on a vital unit. Drops units movement to half. Jump priest casts jaws of the world wolf. Unit dies a horrible painful mortal wound death. Very good at killing enemy chrs that cant fly / not vehicles and squads of very annoying things (long range devistators hiding or terminator equivalents).

Triple rune priest in terminator armor. They drop in and then proceeded to use every mortal wound power they have to unleash holy fury upon the enemy. Get almost 2 squads killes then pop living lightning + strat for bouncing d6 mortal wounds.

Rune priest and new executioner repulsar, repulsar can move and fire at the same time, rune priest can protect it (storm caller) and if an enemy deep strikes in rune preist can use the executioner to take free pot shots at the deep strikers.

Wolf guard terminators with storm shields and storm bolters. These guys are cheap in 5 man squads and put out an obsene level of shots for such a durable unit.


Hope these give you some ideas to make a list.

 Ratius wrote:
Guys Im looking for a blatantly competitive build to play / try out.
Not sure who opponents will be but it will be maelstrom missions.
I dont own any TWC so they are out.

Apart from that have most oldmarine units and dont mind trying out proxies for numarines.

Any good builds I can check / review?

Maelstrom missions need Troops to take and hold objectives. I don't rate Blood Claws particularly highly in this edition so Grey Hunters or Intercessors are probably your best bet. The new Infiltrators are good against certain opponents but are quite expensive at 22 points each. Mobility is also important so putting a couple of packs of Grey Hunters in Razorbacks will give you some cheap movement options and give you a couple of extra heavy weapons.

Long Fangs are really solid in this edition and I would recommend a full-sized pack. Between Wolf's Eye, Keen Senses and their natural ability to reroll 1s to hit, they pack a lot more punch than regular Devastators. Lascannons are probably the best option but feel free to mix it up a bit. Missile launchers are cheaper and give access to the Flakk Missile stratagem. Consider adding a cheap Wolf Guard to act as an ablative wound for them. Whirlwinds are not very powerful but they are cheap and provide a source of indirect fire which can be useful for bombarding units hiding on their won objectives.

Wulfen are very powerful. 5 with 4 Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields and one with Frost Claws led by a Wolf Priest will do a lot of damage. You can Outflank with them using the "On the Hunt" stratagem but delivering them in a StormWolf flyer might be more reliable.

Our Dreads are pretty good too. A Wulfen Dread with a Blizaard Shield and axe or claw is pretty cheap but fast and hitty. Use one as a distraction carnifex to take the heat off other armoured units or take 2 as a bodyguard for Bjorn the Fellhanded and move them all up together with an Iron Priest attendant with Armour of Russ. The Wulfen Dreads tank hits for Bjorn on their shields while the Iron Priests repairs damage and freezes opponents in melee.

Njal Stormcaller is a very good psyker and well worth taking.

Mobile firepower is also valuable to hunt down enemy units holding their objectives. Wolf Guard bikers with Storm shields and stormbolters are very tough and also put out 40 shots each with the "Bolter Discipline" rule. Alternatively, a back of Bolter Inceptors are pretty cheap, mobile and shooty.

Hopefully this will give you some ideas to get started with.

So yeah. That shock assault rule will be awesome for us if everything we already have stays the same.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So yeah. That shock assault rule will be awesome for us if everything we already have stays the same.

And infiltrating dreadnoughts Now I just hope it's got a decent melee weapon. 3 of those things infiltrating could solve many of SWs' issues getting into CC.

What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.

Azuza001 wrote:
What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.

I’ve always wanted centurions. Although I’d probably use them with my deathwatch more. I stumbled upon the greatest space wolves bit lot ever on eBay recently for just over $50. So with all the extra bits I’ve been building many different ideas I want to try such as the double chainsword wolfguard. Buffed by arjac, wulfen and the new ability they will have 7 attacks on the charge and 8 if I can proc saga of the savage. Built a mixed pack of 5 with double chainsword and 5 with TH/SS that I plan to put in a land raider or storm wolf for safe delivery. Along with my usual minus to hit shenanigans they should definitely make combat. Makes me want to fight hordes. I’m curious about the viability of Reivers now especially buffed by a Reiver battle leader.

Azuza001 wrote:
What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.

A Stormraven would be a quite nice delivery vector for a Wulfen Dread.

Thats what i was thinking. Dreadnaught delivery would be nice. I want our normal, not forgeworld, dreadnaught drop pods back, but thats a silly dream and i know it. :(

I'm pretty sure they removed the line about "everyone will have access to all of the units in this codex" about an hour or two after the preview was put up so I'd wait a bit before you go out and add new models to your army.

At least they sorted that BEFORE the codex was released....

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.

I’ve always wanted centurions. Although I’d probably use them with my deathwatch more. I stumbled upon the greatest space wolves bit lot ever on eBay recently for just over $50. So with all the extra bits I’ve been building many different ideas I want to try such as the double chainsword wolfguard. Buffed by arjac, wulfen and the new ability they will have 7 attacks on the charge and 8 if I can proc saga of the savage. Built a mixed pack of 5 with double chainsword and 5 with TH/SS that I plan to put in a land raider or storm wolf for safe delivery. Along with my usual minus to hit shenanigans they should definitely make combat. Makes me want to fight hordes. I’m curious about the viability of Reivers now especially buffed by a Reiver battle leader.

For Wolf Guard, if you are thinking of doing double chainsword, try doing chain sword / storm bolter loadout. It gives you an extra 40 s4 ap - attacks for 20 points on a full squad, vs 10 extra s4 ap - attacks. In addition the storm bolters don't rely on a single dice roll to be useful.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
That is a pretty good use of the combo, i gave up on wulfen from outflank due to the abnormally high failure rate i was having, but that may be the help that idea needs to work more reliably.

It is actually pretty amazing how often they manage to fall short in spite of having natural re-rolls to charge as well as the potential option to command point re-roll a single dice.

Well if they are aiming for 9" to charge then with all those rerolls it's 58% success rate. 42% failure rate isn't that good...

(incidentally the CP reroll is bigger boost than natural reroll ability for both. and both abilities gives nice extra buff)

With a Master of Vanguard you need to roll an 8 to get in.
So what you use to fix a fail depends on the two dice results.
Snake Eyes needs the natural re-roll.
The natural re-roll is better if your highest is 2 or 3, 41.7% for the natural vs 16.7% for a 6 and 33.3% for 5+ respectively.

If you bagged a 4 the CP becomes better at 50% for 4+.
5 needs 3+ at 66.7%.
6 needs 2+ at 83.3%.

Im glad we are not getting all units from codex SM like centurions. The gamer in me doesn't want or need that stuff but the collector would want 3 each

Rumor has it we won't be getting doctrines either (which really sucks because an extra -1 ap on bolters or CCW would be so clutch.)

I hope that's an unfounded rumor (saw some convo in the DA thread) because all those chainsword attacks with -1 ap would be so sweet...