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Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Rank & File was not always a thing and a lot over time
the main advantage has always been to defend better against cavalry and other fast attacks

even as late as the napoleonic wars, were a fire line was the best offensive formation and a square the best defensive one, the french had success with the column that replaced the line as main formation up to a point
because the higher vulnerability against artillery was compensated by the possibility to build easier & faster a square, being less vulnerable in the flanks in general and was much easier to maintain for less trained troops

during history we saw skirmish formations, replaced by R&F, replaced by Skirmish again that changed to R&F and only in modern times the Skirmish ones seems to stay (I guess until we develop some kind of shield technology and we are back to R&F again)

 StygianBeach wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Well, there are flame thrower and rocket launchers in the game, and this thing looks like a machine gun but it does not mean it works like a modern one (same like an original Galting is different from a modern Mini-Gun as well as from a multi barrel flintlock)

And rats having machine guns in fantasy is nothing new
GW's Skaven have Gatling Guns for a very long time now, and no one really ever cared that with this guns they should dominate the world that was, as well as Age of Sigmar


Skaven Gatling guns have a hand crank and are seriously unreliable. Plus you have the idea that Skaven would dominate the world if they stopped fighting among themselves.


the weapon is a Rattlecannon with 18" range, D6+7 Attacks and Piercing 2
so unreliable and short ranged

 StygianBeach wrote:

I have been mulling over the question of 'whats the difference' in my head between a Fantasy Maxim gun and Fantasy Gatling gun and why I seriously dislike one, but not the other.

The Maxim gun (Gatling gun as well) were used against native populations as well as against other industrial powers. So in a Fantasy setting, it should not too much of a stretch imagining Rat Machine guns against populations armed with bows and heavy armour?

I think it comes down to how iconic the weapon is and how much of a game changer it was historically, and that slapping one into a setting should have implications for the entire setting.


I never really liked the Gatling in a Fantasy setting, as it needs much more to work than other weapons
Flamethrower were a thing already for Acient Greeks, we just lost the knowledge how to make them so this can work in a fantasy world as well

a Gatling needs Cartridge and Primers to work wich is really something that only comes up with more modern weapons
a multibarrel rapid fire flintlock on the other hand was done very early but never really made as it was not faster (just having more burst damage and longer reload)

looking back in history, air guns were a thing, known for high rate of fire but short range with the big disadvantage of needing a lot of pumps to get enough air in (which is less of a problem if mounted on a machine)
and the earliest rapid fire flintlock "gun" meant as a short range weapon for ships was around 1700 and problem with caseless ammunition is that more heat stays inside the weapon and additional cooling is needed
a watercooled barrel for a gun using caseless ammunition is more "in line" than an actual gatling gun

what i think the problem here is, is that we are already used to multi-barrel weapons from GW in a fantasy setting that is looks less strange to us than a barrel with a mantle were the only other link we can make is a WW1 machine gun

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Yep the Puckle gun was back in 1710 (lucky enough to work in place where we have one as the owner was one of the original sponsors of the invention) - apparently it was quite effective but the navy (as the original customer) was not convinced that cannons and grapeshot would not do the same job against corsairs etc.

Logistics is also an issue - keeping an effective army in the field is not easy - especially since in history very few were professional and usually had to go home to harvest.

The Skavens incredable techonlogy is countered by the even greater self destructive tendacies - do the Mantic Ratlings have similar issues?

Armour is another thing that varies greatly across historical periods both in terms of effectiveness and the larger the army the larger the cost to equip.

The new models also tick the rule fo cool for me - much more than the other ratling stuff.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Let's not forget that the average ratling gun catastrophically misfires and blows up with great frequency. And is, in essence, running on unstable highly radioactive fuel. This goes for Skaven tech in general; levels of user harm which would be considered appalling are just Tuesday. If we set the bar to 'this only needs to work half the time and if it kills the crew the other half no biggie' weapons development suddenly becomes a lot easier.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

the reason why all those repeating flintlocks never made it was price

if one weapon that fires 3-5 times faster cost more than adding 10 more soldiers to the unit and cannot be repaired on the field, it was not worth it

for a just broken free from slavery people that wants to bring war to others that just throws enough gak to the wall until something sticks, while having the technology (technical, magical and biological) of their former masters as a base to work with

there is a lot more possible than for the normal human kingdom that first needs to care that their peasants don't die like flys

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yep the Puckle gun was back in 1710 (lucky enough to work in place where we have one as the owner was one of the original sponsors of the invention) - apparently it was quite effective but the navy (as the original customer) was not convinced that cannons and grapeshot would not do the same job against corsairs etc.

I also read that some considered it more dangerous for the crew than for the attackers, which would the Ratkin theme

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

They test fired it in the rain and it did very well
At a later public trial held in 1722, a Puckle gun was able to fire 63 shots in seven minutes (approximately nine rounds per minute)


Not heard it was damaging to crew - although it was noted as being damaging to "investors" as lampooned in the contempoary media. The 2nd Duke of Montagu bought a number of them for a attempt to create a slavery fee colony in St Luctia and St Vincent but his man upset the navy who would not support him against the French......A man came over from Australia quite a few years ago, measured the one on display in the armoury and made his own working version.

Also lets not forget that weapon tech can be expensive and manpower is often not...





I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not heard it was damaging to crew

it never did, but the Royal Navy still used as an argument why they don't want to get it

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Did you know it’s been almost two and a half years since we launched Kings of War: Vanguard? Inspired by the many factions of Pannithor, Vanguard tells the story of the skirmishes before the big battles. It’s the opportunity for you to live out the brave adventures of small warbands often sent behind enemy lines to disrupt the plans of foes and rivals.

Since launching we’ve created full warbands for 12 factions, released the Ice and Iron supplement and held sold out tournaments here at Mantic HQ (and elsewhere). In fact, Vanguard has proved to be so popular that we quickly sold out of the Ice & Iron supplement and earlier this year sold out of the latest re-print of hardback rulebook.

After releasing the rulebook in October 2018, there have been a number of changes to the game (via errata) and, of course, we’ve released a lot of new models each time we create a full warband. So, when it came to reprinting the rulebook we decided this was actually a great opportunity to incorporate those changes and make sure that any new players are playing the most up to date rules, without the need to download additional stuff.

With that in mind, we’re pleased to announce that the reprinted Vanguard rulebook has been updated to Vanguard 1.1 – and you can see all the changes below. The new softback rulebook is now the standard Vanguard rulebook and will also come in the revised two-player starter set… all of which can be ordered now. Of course, if you’ve got the old rulebook, it’s still perfectly playable and you can find out how to update that later in this blog.


MAJOR CHANGES IN THE REVISED VANGUARD RULEBOOK

Here you can see the major changes in the revised book. The main thing to remember is that the core rules remain the same, however we have tweaked certain elements to make them clearer. This isn’t Vanguard Second Edition… it’s more like Vanguard + errata + some cleaning up = super fun times for everyone. YAY!

  • Integrated previous errata and FAQ and cleared up some language

  • Added the Ice & Iron campaign and story into the core rulebook + all the new scenarios – as mentioned we have sold out of the Ice & Iron supplement, so thought this was a great opportunity to include the extra missions in the core book

  • Removed all warbands from the rulebook – this may seem like an odd decision, but these are all free online (you can download them here) or in EasyArmy for list building. This means the rulebook doesn’t go out of date as soon as we release a new warband and it allows us to errata units more easily, without immediately making the rulebook obsolete

  • Called all counters and markers “tokens” for consistency

  • Forced Fatigue now called Heroic Effort – there was some confusion among players about the difference between Fatigue and Forced Fatigue, so we’ve cleared this up

  • Standing models that are engaged by an enemy model can now Brace as well as Break Away and Melee

  • Break Away action updated to free Melee attack with no retaliations. Models Breaking away can no longer engage another enemy model when doing so

  • Amended the Jumping rule to be more consistent (so rolling high is better)

  • Clarified what objectives are the scenarios and their sizes

  • Changed what happens if one side is wiped out – the game is played to completion

  • Reduced speed to 5 while carrying the plans in Recover the Plans

  • Noted in several scenarios that models need to be standing to contest or claim objectives

  • Burn the Stores – short actions now to start/put out fires and position of the barn adjusted

  • Updated the Portal scenario to teleport models back to their own deployment area instead of into the void

  • Clarified the Malevolence spell

  • In campaigns, reduced the amount you have to spend on the Company at the start to 250.

  • Restructured the order of the phases to make them more logical.

  • Also updated the underdog bonus dice rules and allowed them to be used each Round

  • Changed Mauler to Grizzled Veteran with new rules



  • “HANG ON! I’VE ALREADY GOT A VANGUARD RULEBOOK… WHAT DO I DO?”
    Ah, it’s our old friend, imaginary blog reader… and they’ve got a very pertinent question. We realise that some of you may have just bought a rulebook or have a rulebook sitting on the shelf, so you may be a little concerned your book is now out of date. Fret not dear blog reader because we have a number of solutions to cater to this issue…

  • DIGITAL RULEBOOKS – all digital rulebooks previously ordered from the Mantic website will be updated to include the new rulebook totally free of charge. Simply head to the ‘downloads’ section of your account and download the rulebook again. We’re expecting this to be ready later this week

  • Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in ca
    Grumpy Longbeard





    Canada

    That's a good step and shows taht there is some attention being paid to Vanguard.

    I'm hoping for a second edition without some of the layers of complexity though.

    Nightstalkers
    Dwarfs

    GASLANDS!  
       
    Made in at
    Discriminating Warrior





    Austria

    It is a good Skirmish game but more of a stand alone product that get all your attention instead of being a supplement for smaller games to Kings of War

    It is not Deadzone in Fantasy, which is good and bad at the same time
    Yet I consider Vanguard a good option to get some old models into play or use other themes (by a discussion on a different forum, it come up that would work for as a 30 Years War / Pike & Shot Skirmish were there are not many rules around to begin with)


    Ronnies Birthday Q&A


    Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in at
    Discriminating Warrior





    Austria

    from todays stream:

    Armada:
    Spoiler:









    Kings of War
    Salamander:
    Spoiler:









    Halflings:
    Spoiler:








    Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in ie
    Fixture of Dakka






    saves me digging out the photos thanks


    Armada

    XL ships - May
    Seas Aflame - July
    Elf Fleet - September

    - Flyers - Orc Slasher, Winggit, Phoenix etc. 30mm base, not all to scale best fit for game.
    - Optional magic rules supplement - with card deck
    - New campaign system
    - 10 new scenarios
    - 4 new fleets, Elves, Twilight Kin, 2 others early 2022 - full releases inc. XLs and flyers
    - Twilight Kin design shares Nightstalker themes

    KoW

    Air Elementals, Drakons, Ogre Warlock - May
    Salamanders - June
    Halflings - late summer

    Halflings are a full KoW army - core list not a themed list

    - 1 HIPS kit makes both the foot infantry (spears, hand weapons, guns) and cavalry.
    - upgrade kits for bows and heavy cavalry
    - Iron Beast from League of Infamy

    [Thumb - AE.png]

    [Thumb - AEg.png]

    This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 22:57:27


     
       
    Made in si
    Ravenous Beast Form







    Mantic lagging behind in all areas lately, huh.

    Halflings are a weird fight to pick with Wargames Atlantic and TTcombat when there's still Mantican original units that don't have real models.

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    Made in at
    Discriminating Warrior





    Austria

    don't see the fight here with Wargames Atlantic, they have 1 Box of mixed infantry/militia while Mantic adds Cavalry and more armoured infantry (those are more working together than fighting each other)

    yet for TT combat, those are Resin while Mantic will be plastic

    and that Halflings are coming was said when 3rd came out so it is not really something new, others were just faster with their releases (and I still don't know why Halflings became popular outside of KoW)

    Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in si
    Ravenous Beast Form







    I sometimes wonder who the heck actually funded like 3 full Halfling armies of different enthnicities from TT, so hey, maybe the market is there.

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    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    The halflings look cool.
    Not something I’ll be getting, but nice to see Mantic put nice models out.
       
    Made in pl
    Rampaging Carnifex





    Rhinosaurs and Air Elementals are my favourites.
       
    Made in be
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    Air Elementals, at last !

    I like the halflings, making them ride big dogs is making me remember the days of Dungeon and Dragons. Looks like the infantry will be mixed too, and that's always nice !

    Wonder what will be their final height, they look a bit bigger than what you usually think about halflings. No naked feet as well.


    The Salamanders...their infantry look like another nightmare to put in rank-and-file units (especially the corsairs). Is that pistols they're supposed to handle ? I remember the complaint about GW's weapon scale creep, and looks like KoW is trying to catch up their big brother on that matter.


    State of Mantic games in Europe is completely crippled with pandemic combined to Brexit and how they handle support in others countries than UK, so I don't know if KoW will survive more years outside of their beloved island.

       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    Man, I really do need to dig into Armada.

    11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

    4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

    3730 Total (210pts painted) 
       
    Made in se
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    Does anyone have a good aproximation of what scale Armada would be if expressed in (x)mm?

    I'm thinking whether it would be possible to use their flyer units in 10mm or 6mm gaming?

       
    Made in at
    Discriminating Warrior





    Austria

    Armada is 1/700 heroic so more of 3mm

    in the stream they said that the flyers are not scaled but made to fit the game and use 30mm Bases

    from this info they should work at least for 6mm gaming

    Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in us
    Courageous Space Marine Captain





    SoCal

    Looks like I’ll be getting some more boats and halfling doggo cavalry.

    The Salamanders look cool in render form, but I’d want to see some in the wild (and their prices) before I get excited.

       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    How are people enjoying Armada? The handful of batreps online being played at 150pts makes the game seem... sparse?

    I'm debating two of their neoprene mats and a larger investment in the game if it plays well. It certainly seems supported which I like.

    11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

    4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

    3730 Total (210pts painted) 
       
    Made in si
    Ravenous Beast Form







    Haven't played Armada but I went all in on Black Seas and it's a snorefest

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     kodos wrote:
    Armada is 1/700 heroic so more of 3mm

    in the stream they said that the flyers are not scaled but made to fit the game and use 30mm Bases

    from this info they should work at least for 6mm gaming

    Thank you

    Might be able to use it 10mm as well then depending on how much larger they'll scale compared to the ships. 30mm bases are usually a quite good fit for monsters in 10mm scale.

       
    Made in gr
    Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





    My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
    Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     Esmer wrote:
    My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
    Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.


    Yikes. I wonder if the addition of the flyers and magic are enough to bulk the game out into something fun?

    11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

    4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

    3730 Total (210pts painted) 
       
    Made in us
    Using Inks and Washes





    San Francisco, CA

     Esmer wrote:
    My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
    Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.


    It bums me out to hear this.

    I was as excited for this release as I've been for anything in years - then I learned it was based on the grindy, slow Black Seas. I played a little solo, and it was terribly... slow. And interesting decisions were limited. Ships firing from afar, doing 2-3 pts of damage to a 30-40 pt ship.... I didn't even have much luck closing the range (and didn't play with the L ships, as I feared they would just have too many HPs, and take too long to whittle down). I love the models, but they remain packed up and put away (and likely won't come out, as I'll be spoiled for choices once everyone gets their vaccines).

    This compared to Oak & Iron, which was fun, fast, and had other interesting decisions (there's cardplay which feels a lot more fun). Just no fantasy. :(

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 15:29:09


    I play...

    Sigh.

    Who am I kidding? I only paint these days... 
       
    Made in us
    Destructive Daemon Prince





    Albany, NY

    Shadow Walker wrote:Rhinosaurs and Air Elementals are my favourites.
    QFT. Mantic's elementals continue to rival the rest of the market (as well as most 3D sculptors) when it comes to wargaming miniatures (i.e. more than a single pose for DND), happy to see the air released. Rhinosaurs are lovely chonky boys.
    Sarouan wrote:The Salamanders...their infantry look like another nightmare to put in rank-and-file units (especially the corsairs). Is that pistols they're supposed to handle ? I remember the complaint about GW's weapon scale creep, and looks like KoW is trying to catch up their big brother on that matter.
    The magic of multibasing is ironically? fittingly? especially important with modern Mantic minis, which are frankly too big to single-base IMO. Following PMC (75% capacity) gives much better results with the Northern Alliance clansmen, these sallies, etc. But yea, I feel the scale weirdness with the new sallies, even if they're supposed to be pretty beefy, they end up looking huge when mounted on anything.
    State of Mantic games in Europe is completely crippled with pandemic combined to Brexit and how they handle support in others countries than UK, so I don't know if KoW will survive more years outside of their beloved island.
    My interest in KOW, and that of a great many gamers, isn't Mantic's minis, tho aye, I suppose if we want a living ruleset, we'll need the company to stay afloat ...

    Related, the scaled down flying phoenix is at the top of my wishlist ... for KOW purposes There are very few flying, smaller phoenix sculpts available, anywhere, and I have a need.

    KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
    INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
       
    Made in at
    Discriminating Warrior





    Austria

     pancakeonions wrote:

    This compared to Oak & Iron, which was fun, fast, and had other interesting decisions (there's cardplay which feels a lot more fun). Just no fantasy. :(

    haven't played Oak and Iron but Armada is less slow than Black Seas for sure

    Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

    M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
       
    Made in gb
    Fresh-Faced New User




    Bournemouth

    Only played Amanda once so far (150 points), I and my opponent enjoyed it a lot and have bought some more ships already for bigger games.
       
     
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