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bigchris1313 wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:The fact that I can now use my daemons in 40K without having to buy a bunch of spikey marines is nice.

You know, you're absolutely right! With the old Chaos Codex, with its limitless options, vast armory, and countless unit entries, I just felt so compelled to do things like taking both Demons and Marines in the same army. Now, with two books with far fewer options each, I'm free to choose, err, forced to field only one force at a time!

Gosh, was one of those "limitless options" the options to take an all-daemon army without any Pokey Marines? 'Cause if it wasn't, you need to consider turning the sarcasm down a notch or two. I didn't ruin your Codex for you. That was Gav.

I don't like Pokey Marines. I think they're stupid. Is that okay with you?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pariah Press wrote: Well, it's true. Half of the old daemons from the original Realm of Chaos books didn't have rules representing them.

Such as?

Sorry, I see that I wasn't very clear. I meant that half of the old daemons from the original RoC books didn't have rules in the 3.5 Codex. (Beasts, Fiends, er, well, just Beasts and Fiends, actually. Oh! And those really stupid Daemons of Kweethul!)

I think a Daemon army is fine as an army, I just really would like the choice of mixing the two.

And before someone (John and Pariah, I'm looking at you two) comes back and ever-so smartly says: 'Well I like the idea of a Marine (HURR!) and Eldar army, but I can't have that!', let me just pre-empt you and say:

It's not the same thing

If people want to have their Daemon armies, then that's great. More power to 'em. But for those of us who lost our World Eater armies, why can't we bring 'Zerkers and 'Letters into battle? How does us doing that harm the people who just want Spiky Marine (HURR!) armies or just want Daemon armies?

BYE

Let me pre-empt Doobie's answer as well:


Well HB, you can bring both Daemons and Spiky Spase Mareinz (HURR) at the same time in Apocalypse, all the time too in Apocalypse, without restriction in Apocalypse.

And, HB, you haven't lost World Eaters at all! Here, let me link you to their datasheet! See, you can still take World Eaters all the time in Apocalypse.

HURR!

BYE

Pariah Press wrote:Gosh, was one of those "limitless options" the options to take an all-daemon army without any Pokey Marines?

Why yes it was!

You could take a perfectly legal army consisting of:

HQ 1 Greater Daemon
Troops = 2-6 Daemon Packs & Nurglings
Fast = 0-3 Daemonic Beasts

The only minor problem is that the units would automatically be destroyed as soon as they arrived from Reserves, owing to the lack of Pokey Marines.

HMBC, you're taking all of the fun out of Dakka.

Anyhow, you forgot secret answer #3:

Well, HB, you can bring both Daemons and Spiky Marines (HURR!), all the time, without restriction - just ignore that the Daemons are *generic*.

yeah...
Ok so there is alot of hate for gamers who wanted to use the armies that worked fine in the old codexs...
I'm actually fairly happy with the new C:CSM
but i feel that the option to ally the basic 4 deamon types would not have been too much of a stretch...

It's funny that people don't to like have options and actualy argue that that's a good thing.

imagine if in the new C: SM they rule out certain Spaz marines...
only generic spaz marines now.. no dark angels or templars, and they shall all be painted blue.

oh meltas and flamers and whatnot.. it's just many options for you and it's confusing... all guns are now either a big gun or small gun.....
and your limited to one big gun for every 10 men.

no bikes for marines that's a orc thing...

and ummm... yeah one stat line 4 4 4 4 1 10 3+
scouts arn't selling so we dropped them from the list.

panic
yeah...

gorgon wrote:- Do 40K players want an army that looks almost identical to a WFB army?

Yes. I think they should do a similar dual release for Beasts of Chaos as well. Just throw a sprue with a giant Beastman torso in the Defiler kit and you've got yourself Codex: Chaos Beastmen. This release will be a perfect follow-up to Codex: Chaos Feral World Guys. SWEET!

- A new "daemonbomb" may be the only design route given that the units and miniatures have already been dictated to them, but can the designers balance an army?

Fixed your typo.

Abadadoon you forgot the future of 40K!

Codex: Red
Codex: Blue
Codex: Yellow

It's for 12 year olds and gamers without time to think, they just need to grab the appropriate colored figs (and thankfully, they offer cases in this color for the really stupid folks) and they can be on their way to a fun filled game!

jfrazell wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:It must be awfully terrible for Demon users to actually have to work to get their units into assault without getting shot to pieces first...just like the rest of us.

While technically accurate, the sarcasm is uncalled for. Most deepstriking lists at the moment (trying to think of one that doesn't) have the ability to blast away when they deepstrike in. It sounds as if the demon forces will not have that ability (which also contrasts with how it works on Codex Renegadez). Except for Tzeentch and who cares about them? They don't have two wounds and really don't have a lot going for them...

The option to assault on deepstirking was a nice middle ground. Frankly it should have been carried forward into the demon codex. That and the option that 1/2 could actually start on the board. I see an all deepstriking only list as potentially getting tedious (and will keep my Nid counts as option for non-tourney games which are all my games at this point).

I don't think it's uncalled for.

I've seen too many people bitching about Chaos and Demons, when really all they miss is the ability to summon Bloodletters and Demonettes (or mounted Demonettes) off their fast/infiltrating units, have them come in, move, and assault.

I'm sorry, but it really is just terrible that such "options" are no longer available to Chaos Marines.

Deepstrike + Assault when you arrive is just not something that makes for fun games. That is just not an option for so many armies out there to deal with, it just makes the game incredibly stupid.

The rest of the armies out there have to work their asses off to get good CC troops into assault. It's time Chaos started having to deal with the same issues the rest of us have had to for years.

Sure I know some of you just wanted rules for each of your models, and I can respect that. But too much of the bitching I see about Demons, especially in real life, revolves around the fact that you can't pull off the safe assaults with what were some of the best assault troops in the game.

Funny I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...

Agree with Voodoo. The only moaning I've seen was from Iron Warriors players (big surprise) and let's-rush-our-bikes-up-and-drop-50-bloodletters/demonettes players (another big surprise). I'm sure we'll see the same rounds of moans 4 years from now, when Tyranids talk about losing the "options" (read: crutches) of elite carnifices and Eldar losing their "options" of spirit stones and harlies in falcons.

edit:

I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...

Yeah because you can shoot back at those deepstrikers.

jfrazell wrote:Funny I say the same thing every time someone deepstrikes in and tries to shoot me up. But thats different isn't it...

The Shooting phase allows them to shoot one unit, and then they're open to retaliatory shooting and/or assault.

By deepstriking and assaulting, it is very easy and possible that the units could safely consolidate into another unit, that they can also butcher, and then in their turn continue the practice, without facing the threat of shooting.

Not every army has the tools to deal with this. Some do and can get around this "tactic", others can do stupid annoying things like building a skimmer "castle" so that they can't be assaulted when their opponent would summon, which leads to more and more annoying lists, and then some armies that don't have the tools to avoid it get left out of the game.

Plus you make it sound like the other "deepstrike and shoot you" armies aren't getting nerfed or removed.

Marines are going to get a DA style nerf. Notice how no one really complains that much about Drop Pods when all that comes out are Marines with just Bolters and 1 Special Weapon, or when Terminators only have one assault cannon per unit. I also see all-drop-troop IG armies getting boned for much the same reason.

stonefox wrote:Agree with Voodoo. The only moaning I've seen was from Iron Warriors players (big surprise) and let's-rush-our-bikes-up-and-drop-50-bloodletters/demonettes players (another big surprise). I'm sure we'll see the same rounds of moans 4 years from now, when Tyranids talk about losing the "options" (read: crutches) of elite carnifices and Eldar losing their "options" of spirit stones and harlies in falcons.

We're talking about the demon codex. Last I saw there were not a lot of bikes in the demon codex. Everything drops. Even the Chaos Renegadez permits summoned demon units to assault. Unless the codex suddenly changes, units in the demon codex do not have the same ability. Ok...
edit: Again I am not arguing for summon-move-assault. I am arguing for a middle ground of summon-assault if in range. That follows the Chaos Codex and evens up the effectiveness band somewhat. At least half the force is deeptsriking without homers so can bounce all over the place (or however it works in V5).

Yeah because you can shoot back at those deepstrikers.

Only after they have shot you. In this context there is effectively a free turn of shooting. Initial testing under rumored V5 by some is reflecting a distinct disadvantage. A good player will shoot them as they come in and move speedbump units into assault or forward to protect the more expensive units. Good tactic which appears to work quite well.

As for the marines being nerfed. I'll wait to see it before I believe it.

Marines nerfed? Oh boy.

Personally I hope they get a huge power increase, because they suck nuts atm.

JohnHwangDD wrote:HMBC, you're taking all of the fun out of Dakka.

it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.

Heck, it was HBMC who made THIS program so he wouldnt have to hear anyone esle talk on dakka anymore, as he has everyone on ignore.

You may thing he is responding to you, but when he sees a posters name on the thread he has ignored, he goes to his trusty autoreponse program and then types in a response to that.

Trust me, He isn't listening to anyone anymore. He is an aussie, he eats goana guts for breakfast. He is crazy I tells ya!

rofl, sometimes I had to wonder, to whom he was responding. Now I know. he's just yelling at the dingos and the koala's and the bushbabys.. lol

Yet more proof that Aussies are KRAAAZY!!!

two_heads_talking wrote:it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.

I knew you'd say that... :S






BYE

Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?

As an example, Panic:

Panic wrote:
oh meltas and flamers and whatnot.. it's just many options for you and it's confusing... all guns are now either a big gun or small gun.....
and your limited to one big gun for every 10 men.

Please follow standard punctuation and capitalization, as it makes your posts much easier to read. And an ellipses (...) is NOT a replacement for a single period.

Thank you.

mortal888 wrote:Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?

Yep, they strike down and then hang out for a turn, eating bolters. Have yet to figure out how my khorne demon army is supposed to work :S

An icon is a 25 point teleport homer, nothing more. 5 points on a DP, but still just lets further units strike within 6" and sit. Take that legit demons, lesser demons can come out fighting!

- Salvage

mortal888 wrote:Wow, that sounds like fun....deep striking units that have to sit there for a turn before being able to do ANYTHING? They'll all get shot to hell without killing a single model. Do they actually deep strike or do they have to be summoned by another unit?

Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).

jfrazell wrote:Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).

For the record ...

Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.

- Salvage

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think a Daemon army is fine as an army, I just really would like the choice of mixing the two.

And before someone (John and Pariah, I'm looking at you two) comes back and ever-so smartly says: 'Well I like the idea of a Marine (HURR!) and Eldar army, but I can't have that!', let me just pre-empt you and say:

It's not the same thing

If people want to have their Daemon armies, then that's great. More power to 'em. But for those of us who lost our World Eater armies, why can't we bring 'Zerkers and 'Letters into battle? How does us doing that harm the people who just want Spiky Marine (HURR!) armies or just want Daemon armies?

BYE

It doesn't. When you play at my house, you can use whatever daemons you wants with your Pokey Marines.

Re Space Marine / Eldar army: can't I at least have "Generic Aliens" in my Space Marine army?

Boss_Salvage wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Half deepstrikes turn 1. The opther half deepstrikes turn 2. The turn 2 guys can come in on a teleport homer so not as bad (but still can't move or assault).

For the record ...

Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.

- Salvage

Wow that sucks even worse. Thanks for the clarification Boss Salvage.

Daemons of Kweethul?

Well, at least I'll also be deep striking flamers, greater demons, and demon princes. With a little bit of terrain, it could still work.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:it won't be long before HMBC will have his own thread, where he talks to himself. mark my words.. he will pre-empt everything and will have the final say too.

I knew you'd say that... :S






BYE

and he's prophetic too.. now I am getting scared.

Balance wrote:Daemons of Kweethul?

Kweethul Gristlegut is some sort of Skaven-related Chaos God. His daemons were/are:

Six Eyed Slayer: Great Daemon. Two-headed humanoid with cloven hooves and wings.
Floating Horror: Lesser Daemon. A harpy, basically.
Fire Runner: Steed. A camel with a lizard's head, flaming feet, and an additional pair pf pincered limbs.
Thing: Beast. Sort of a giant, four-legged tick.