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JohnHwangDD wrote:Besides the rumor mill is very clear that GW will eventually do books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers.

Yeah, I heard it's coming out right after Codex: Dark Eldar and Codex: Alienhunters.

They already did books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers, JohnHwang. And by "books" I mean "datasheets". Enjoyjoy!

Here is my take on a couple of the issues that have been brought up in this thread:

Undead being split is the same as Chaos being split
I disagree with this because the core units for Undead are still there. If we look at Tomb Kings vs Vampire Counts (I haven't seen newest edition), they have the same basic "stuff" in each army. TK gets more ranged combat, while VC gets heavier armor and more beat stick characters.

Skeletons = Skeletons
Tomb Guard = Grave Guard
Carrion = Fellbats
Whatever Swarm = Bat Swarm
Mounted Heavy Calvary = Mounted Heavy Calvary
Tomb Priest ability = Raise Dead
Chariots ~= Black Couch

All the basic units and abilities are there. The only real difference is TK can't create new skeleton units or expand beyond it's initial unit size. The army, however, can shoot and has garaunteed magic, which makes up for it. If I were an Undead player, I wouldn't feel too bad because the core of my army didn't change. I may be wrong as it heavily depends on the previous incantation of undead. Loosing a couple mummy models isn't as bad as loosing 1/2 your army to a rules change.

Removing Deamons from Chaos has fundamentally changed how the army operates and removed a lot of flavor. My Khorne army has fundamentally changed in how it operates because 1/3 of it became useless with the generic deamon rules. I also now have a THIRD model design for Bloodletters, which looks beyond aweful to me. Let's look at my Khorne army under the new codecies.

Under CSM:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Berserkers
Bloodletters = Generic lesser deamon
Fleshhounds = Generic lesser deamon
Bloodthirster = Generic greater deamon
Dreadnaught = Gigantic waste of points Dreadnaught

Under Deamos:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Nothing
Bloodletters = Bloodletters
Fleshhounds = Fleshhounds
Bloodthirster = Bloodthirster
Dreadnaught = Nothing

As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons. This is a fundamental problem and really chaps my ass.

Chaos & Deamons = Guard, Space Marines & Deamonhunters
This either shows a complete lack of understanding on the state of the game or needs further explaination. I CANNOT ALLY DEAMONS WITH CSM and therefore the above is LIE. The only explaination would be if they are going to make the Inquisition stand alone in the future. I bet is they won't so they can continue to sell Grey Knight models to Guard and SM players. In which case GW is being two faced.

Techboss wrote:
Under CSM:
Deamon Prince = Deamon Prince
Berzerkers = Berserkers
Bloodletters = Generic lesser deamon
Fleshhounds = Generic lesser deamon
Bloodthirster = Generic greater deamon
Dreadnaught = Gigantic waste of points Dreadnaught

As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons.

I CANNOT ALLY DEAMONS WITH CSM

Looks like your army plays just fine under CSM Codex.

As I can see, every model maps to the CSM Codex. You just don't have so many uber speshul roolz. But then, if you were even a halfway decent player and built your army around Fluff for Knorne, you wouldn't need those special rules to play well, right?

It you want uber Daemons with CSM, that's what Apocalypse is for.

Seriously, you're just going to have to wait for Codex: World Eaters to appear in 2010 / 2011 for you to play full-power Berzerkers with full-power Daemons. Until the, you're just going to have to suck it up.

JHDD, no matter how many times I read your posts, I can never figure out what exactly you're trying to achieve. "Until the, you're just going to have to suck it up"--do you imagine that anyone isn't aware of this? Of course all we can do is suck it up and wait for change (or write house rules). Everyone knows this. It is precisely why people like to complain. It's all that's left to them.

BTW, you're full of it if you if you seriously think a Khornate CSM army is viable.

Why isn't Belakor in the new codex? It's a sweet model and would make a great cross-over 40k/Fantasy. I'll just have to use him for a Khorn Prince if they don't make rules for him but he really should be a special character.

Also, I love the fact that there's an undivided greater demon that causes mass havoc. I've always wanted a Greater Demon of Cthulhu!

mortal888 wrote:Why isn't Belakor in the new codex? It's a sweet model and would make a great cross-over 40k/Fantasy. I'll just have to use him for a Khorn Prince if they don't make rules for him but he really should be a special character.

Also, I love the fact that there's an undivided greater demon that causes mass havoc. I've always wanted a Greater Demon of Cthulhu!

I am definitely using Belakor as such.

It's the perfect set-up for a White Dwarf article.

On CSM and generic demons:

The whole thing seems like a cop out to me. Even the name "generic lesser demon" is bland. It's like GW was trying to think of the most boring thing possible to replace named demons so that everyone would want the demon codex. And frankly, I don't care if demons take the focus away from CSM. CSM and demons go TOGETHER! Just like Hordes of Chaos and Fantasy Demons go together. See, all of chaos goes together because it's CHAOS. You're supposed to be able to mix stuff up - or that's why I was first attracted to it.

Now it's just marine list/ demon list. Oh, but the marine list has token demons that almost no one uses. Yay!

On God Specific Codices:

Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C:CSM and Cemons. And there will be more Blanche pictures.

On John Blanche:

I actually like his pictures in the Vampire book. But the demon pictures in C:CSM look like something a child drew. I swear I saw some of those 'demons' on Sesame Street.

On Belakor:

They are discontinuing the model so ha ha you can't use it. Sucker.

Poopie. Khorn demon it is then.....

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Sounds crappy. Now I see why Stelek was complaining about them. Shouldn't psychic powers be a little better when used by actual warp entities? Would it have killed them to make BoC S9 or a melta weapon? No army should have to rely on S8 weapons and three expensive BS3 HS choices for AT/MC capability.

Well thank goodness someone else posted it, so I can comment freely.

Actually what most people rely on are the BoC off the Tzeentch Heralds (2 shots per turn @ BS4).

Sadly if you bring the HQ's to kill my tanks...and I kill just your 2 or 4 Heralds, holy crap it better not be a KP mission cause if it is those 6 or 9 or 12 points you lost are a handicap.

If you don't bring the chariot, you die to light weapons and if you bring a large unit of demons to 'protect' you...you eat the templates. If you do bring the chariot (or don't, and don't bring a unit along as a bodyguard), you die to light/heavy weapons (since you can't join units anymore--or are just a big fat target with crap T and crap W).

If you think of them as the suicide Shaso, you aren't far off. Sadly, they cost alot of points, cost you MC slots, and without vehicles on the board kill a marine a turn. YAY!

Everything else is vehicle based, costs you alot of points, cost you MC slots, and if you think a DS defiler is gonna solve your problem...when it gets blown up, don't cry about it.

Anything mobile just owns this army. My mech Eldar took some serious losses. Then I ran through the army with my seer council. It wasn't even a fun game.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:BTW, you're full of it if you if you seriously think a Khornate CSM army is viable.

What?! Khorne is the win!

I already looked at the codex. They have it at MLGS. I was not very impressed

The thing that irritates me the most about chaos is the lack of effort they put in fluff. Now two bloodthirsters can lead a horde of daemonettes. Love to see that battle. Two embodiments of death and destruction with a bunch of warped cheerleaders running around.

Can't take them as allies?

Codex = Waste of time.

I look forward to buing it and the WFB Daemon books to farm for ideas for our own Chaos Codex, one that A). Doesn't suck, B). Contains non-generic forces, C). Doesn't suck and D). Allowes for Legions.

BYE

Techboss wrote:As you can see 1/3 of my army becomes junk/useless if I play under CSM and 2/3 of it is scrap if I played under Deamons. This is a fundamental problem and really chaps my ass.

Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!

Noisy_Marine wrote:Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C:CSM and Cemons.

I love how you can't even write Caemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.

I love how you can't even write Caemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.

Sigged!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Can't take them as allies?

Codex = Waste of time.

I look forward to buing it and the WFB Daemon books to farm for ideas for our own Chaos Codex, one that A). Doesn't suck, B). Contains non-generic forces, C). Doesn't suck and D). Allowes for Legions.

BYE

I belive a Codex containing all of the above was released in 2003... I agree with your sentiment on the new CSM and Daemon Codexes, if you can't ally between the two lists they are wholly pointless and are a slap in the face to all the people who have a combined list that is no longer fun to play.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!

I hope your being sarcastic

It will be a sad day when Dakka is forced to use emoticons and the stupid /sarcasm tags.

yeah...
<sarcasm> I like the stupid tags </sarcasm>

Abadabadoobaddon makes me laugh but through all that had made some good points though!
separteing your marines from you deamons: in the end it's really the only real option. other than looking stupid...

for me it isn't that bad i'll drop my 30 plaguebearers and GUO from my marine list.
and later on consider adding to that as the statrtining core of a daemon list... or i'll ebay them off...

Thirsters leading deamonettes!!!
yeah the Pantheon of Chaos Gods of idea makes me sick! they are meant to hate each others guts and stab each other in the back... they don't call them fickel for nothing...

Panic
yeah...

Techboss wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Well there's an simple solution to that. Why not expand your existing collection? With only a few additional models you could experience the best of both worlds with a Chaos Space Marines army and a Chaos Daemons army! And don't forget you can still field both armies at the same time in large games using the Apocalypse supplement! To get started simply stop by your local Games Workshop Hobby Center or visit the Games Workshop Online Store at http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us - there you'll find everything you need including models, rules, and hobby supplies! It's your one-stop shopping destination for all your Games Workshop hobby needs! So what are you waiting for? The Ruinous Powers compel you!

I hope your being sarcastic

Dude. Abba is always serious....

Is it just me or do they consistently make horrors worthless in every instance in 40k? The last horrors had an 18" worthless shot and two wounds, suck in HTH. The new horrors have a worthless 18" shot, 1 wound, a new power that will never actually work since everything in the game with a decent gun has a high leadership, and sucks in HTH.

And I need the horrors for my fantasy list, so it's the only thing that won't transfer to my 40k games. Why would they make everything else Tzeentch so cool, but the main unit suck so bad?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Can't take them as allies?

Codex = Waste of time.

You can ally them in Armageddon, just like Marines and Imperial Guard (the Inquisition book(s) will follow this format when thy are redone). Suck it up kids this is the future of 40k. :(

mortal888 wrote:Why would they make everything else Tzeentch so cool, but the main unit suck so bad?

yeah...
game balance i guess....

I also hate that codex: stock clearance is everyones weak answer to other Codex shortcomings and 40ks future...

panic
yeah...

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Who cares if they write them. The quality of writing will be the same as it is in C:CSM and Cemons.

I love how you can't even write Caemons without an Ork popping up to laugh at the pure idiocy of it. In fact from now on I shall simply refer to the codex as C:Hahahaemons.

You rule Abadaabadoobaddon.

An interesting phenomenon with the daemon codex is how the ally question is pretty much the first thing people ask about. Sometimes it's followed by questions about cultists/mutants/etc. GW sure has a good read on what its customers want, huh?

IMO, GW completely misread their daemons sales data. And their response to that misread has created a lot of questions in my mind.
- While it's a great cross-sell opportunity and a welcome release on the WFB side, are separate all-daemon armies really what 40K players want?
- Are generic, non-marked lesser daemons the only alternative and an acceptable substitute in CSM armies?
- Do 40K players want an army that looks almost identical to a WFB army?
- A new "daemonbomb" may be the only design route given that the units and miniatures have already been dictated to them, but can the designers balance an all-deep striking army?
- Jervis tends to err on the side of caution, but will a daemon army that's even slightly underpowered take root?

I dunno. It could be that whatever they sell on the 40K side is gravy, so they don't really care. *shrug* It's hard to know exactly what the business strategy is unless you're an insider, I suppose.

I do know one thing...if you need any proof of how the finance types are steering the ship, look at WHICH lesser daemons are being released in plastic. They mysteriously correspond to the two units that had the strongest rules, and thus the most sales...

gorgon wrote:An interesting phenomenon with the daemon codex is how the ally question is pretty much the first thing people ask about. Sometimes it's followed by questions about cultists/mutants/etc. GW sure has a good read on what its customers want, huh?

My guess is the marketing people looked at Chaos army comps and decided that since they had demons and CSM, that they could split the army giving/forcing the player to have two armies. As an example, my Khorne army is roughly 50/50 demons and CSM at 2000 points. By splitting the force, I now have two 1000 point armies. This sounds good except I don't have enough points to play either army at 2000 points. My options with the army(s) at this point are:

1 - Ebay them both
2 - Build up the CSM side
3 - Build up the Demon side
4 - Build up both sides

If money and painting time is no object, then option 4 is probably acceptable. However, most people are already grumpy about GW prices and the time required to paint an army. People were hoping that option 4 would be given to them through Allie rules with the Demon Codex. This didn't happen, so option 4 is basically not going to happen unless your playing Apoc or are a huge fan.

Option 3 means I have to allow 1000 points of SMs to collect dust because they can't be fielded in a Demon army. Additionally, the Demon army will be a huge one trick pony like drop troops. If your opponent's army comp or familiarity with droop troops is poor, then you'll rape them. If they know the counter, then the Demon player will probably loose. Lack of versitility, loss of models and my general dislike for the new demon models rule out this option.

Option 2 is the only option that allows me to use all my models. Even though lesser demons are junk, I can still put them on the table and won't "loose" the models. CSM are also much more versitile in tactics and I like the models. Therefore Demons gets pushed to the points "filler" role for my army.

Player - "I want to play CSM and faction demons in the same army"
GW - "Here is CSM and generic demons. We'll release a faction demons later."
Player - "Ok, but I want faction demons in my CSM"
GW - "Behold the glory that is the Demon Codex. It has faction demons and is a stand alone army."
Player - "Can I use faction demons and CSM together?"
GW - "No, but you have two distinct and unique armies!!!"
Player - "gtfo, I'm going to play Warmachine"

It's one of the two ways GW does new releases. They will always either:

1. Not release a new model for the unit and nerf it.
2. Realise they cannot nerf the unit without angering people, so release new models for that unit that are so completely different to the previous ones that they'll look funny when mixed (ref. Stealth Suits anyone?).

BYE

Bomb disposal stealth suits are way better than megaman stealth suits.

the funny thing is that they said they made it the way it is now because they wanted more fluff going to daemons as the felt they were not getting all the attention that they deserved.