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There is/was a pretty comprehensive recap document about the 40k daemon codex around the intarnets and I selectively c&p'd this stuff from there. It's also good to notice that 5th ed (with the probable rending nerf) is just around corner so some of the stuff may seem odd with 4th edition in mind. I've tried to make this a bit more obscure so it's not quite "all-you-need-to-play" so it doesn't get deleted (hopefully).

The general rules:
All daemons are fearless and have inv saves. They are also immune to ID. No psychic powers in the list, the "psychic powers" work like innate abilites and work like normal shooting for example such as needing "to-hit" roll. At deployment, split army in half as evenly as possible and choose on half. On a 3+ you get the half you wanted. The half you got deepstrikes on turn 1 and the rest ds with normal rules (which apply to the 1st turn ds'ers too).

The meat:
HQ: Greater Daemons or 2 heralds per slot. 4 special heralds (1 for each god) and 3 special greaters daemons available.
All greaters have 4+ inv and heralds 5+, tzeentch stuff has a bit better and khorne stuff has power armor in addition. Ld 10 all around also. Normal heralds and greaters also have a limited selection of gifts to choose. Gift price range is 5-40, most are 5-25.

'Thirster (pts:land raider)
WS: 10, BS: 4, S: 7, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 5
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Death Strike (12", S7, AP2, Assault 1)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead

GUO (pts:12 marines)
WS: 6, BS: 4, S: 6, T: 6, W: 5, I: 2, A: 4
Monstrous Creature
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Noxious Touch (Always wound on 2+)
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)

KoS (pts-4xspeeder)
WS: 8, BS: 4, S: 6, T: 6, W: 4, I: 10, A: 6
Monstrous Creature
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per
turn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)

LoC (pts:land raider)
WS: 5, BS: 5, S: 6, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 3
Monstrous Creature
Flight (Jump troop)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Soul Devourer (Models taking a wound must pass Ld test or die)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)

Herald of Khorne (pts:techmarine with storm bolter )
WS: 6, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 3
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Hellblade (Power weapon)
Choose up to one:
Juggernaut of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv)
Chariot of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +2 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv, no longer an Independent
Character)
Choose up to three:
Fury of Khorne (Rending)
Death Strike (12", S7, AP2, Assault 1)
Iron Hide (3+ Save)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Icon (Teleport Homer)

Herald of Tzeentch (pts:speeder)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2
Independent Character
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Choose up to one:
Disc of Tzeentch (+1 A, Jump Troop)
Chariot of Tzeentch (+2 A, +1 T, +3 W, Jetbike, no longer an Independent
Character)
Choose up to three:
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Soul Devourer (Models taking a wound must pass Ld test or die)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Icon (Teleport Homer)

Herald of Nurgle (pst:speeder)
WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 5, W: 2, I: 3, A: 2
Independent Character
Feel no Pain
Slow and Purposeful
Plaguesword (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Choose up to one:
Palanquin of Nurgle (+1 A, +1 W)
Choose up to three:
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Noxious Touch (Always wound on 2+)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Icon (Teleport Homer)

Herald of Slaanesh (pts:speeder)
WS: 5, BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 7, A: 4, Ld: 10
Independent Character
Rending
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Choose up to one:
Mount of Slaanesh (+1 A, Cavalry)
Chariot of Slaanesh (+2 A, +3 W, 4+ Sv, no longer an Independent Character)
Choose up to three:
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Transfixing Gaze (One model in base to base has -1 attack)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", requires hit roll, only usable
once per unit per turn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Unholy Might (+1 Strength)
Icon (Teleport Homer)

About the special hq choices:
All the special greaters are 300ish pts.
Kugath, special GUO with +1w and +1a, pretty much all the nurgle gifts (greater and herald) + shoots ordnace1 ap2 large blast that wounds on 4+ and on a 4+ at the beginning of your turn you deepstrike one nurgling base within 12" of the guy.

Fateweaver, special LoC, a bit whimsier than normal (-1 to almost all stats). Knows pretty much every tzeentch gifts (greater & herald) and provides a fortun to daemons within 6". He must take a ld test if he takes a wound of he dies (with ld9).

3rd guy is Skarbrand, The Exiled One
WS: 10, BS: 0, S: 8, T: 6, W: 4, I: 5, A: 6
Monstrous Creature
Unique
Fleet
Furious Charge
Rage Embodied (All units, friend or foe, within 24" must reroll failed hits in close combat)
Bellow of Endless Fury (Breath of Chaos, Instrument of Chaos)

The special heralds are:
The Masque (pts:2xspeeder)
WS: 5, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 7, A: 4
Independent Character
Unique
Fleet
Rending
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per turn)
Instrument of Chaos (If you tie combat, you win by one instead)
Eternal Dance (Can use Pavane of Slaanesh three times a turn)

Epidemius (pts:as previous + little extra)
WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 5, W: 3, I: 3, A: 3
Independent Character
Unique
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plaguesword (Always wound on 4+ in combat)
Cloud of Flies (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit with Ap- in the shooting phase)
The Tally of Pestilence (Keep track of casualties caused by Nurgle units from both players.
While Epidemius is alive, if there are 5-9 kills, plagueswords wound on 3+. If there are 10-14
kills, all Nurgle units have Noxious Touch. If there are 15-19 kills, Nurgle units with Feel no
Pain work on a 3+. If there are 20+ kills, all Nurgle units have power weapons. Effects are
cumulative)

The Bluescribes (pts:as previous + little extra)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 3
Independent Character
Jump Troop
Unique
Master of Sorcery (Can fire one additional weapon per shooting phase)
We Are Legion (Can split fire and charge a different unit that you shot at)
Bolt of Tzeentch (24", S8, AP1, Assault 1)
Boon of Mutation (Gift of Chaos, turns an enemy model into Chaos Spawn)
Gaze of Chaos (24", S5, AP3, Assault 3)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)
Pavane of Slaanesh (Lash, but 18", moves d6", only usable once per unit per turn)
Aura of Decay (Enemy models within 6" suffer S2 hit in the shooting phase)
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
Watch This! (When firing twice with Master of Sorcery, roll a d6. On 4-6, you may fire your
second, different, attack as normal. On a 1-3, you must use the same attack as you used the
first time this turn)

Skulltaker (pts:previous + little extra)
WS: 7, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 4
Independent Character
Unique
Furious Charge
Hellblade (Power weapon)
Blessing of the Blood God (2+ save against psychic powers and force weapons)
Fury of Khorne (Rending)
Skulls for the Skull Throne! (Rends on 4+ rather than a 6, all unsaved rending wounds cause
Instant Death)
Choose up to one:
Juggernaut of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv)
Chariot of Khorne (+1 S, +1 T, +2 W, +1 A, 3+ Sv, no longer an IC
---
Regarding the normal troops, pretty much everything has ld 10 and 5+ inv (bloodcrushers have power armor tzeentch stuff has improved inv save)
Most unit upgrades are relatively cheap, around 10-20 pts. The elite stuff have mostly options for upgrading one guy in the unit with extra cc ability or high strength shooting (with tzeentch).

Elites:
Fiends of Slaanesh (pts:2xmarine)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 4, W: 2, I: 5, A: 5
Beast
Rending
Soporific Musk (Hit and Run)

Flamers of Tzeentch (pts:2xmarine + extra)
WS: 2, BS: 4, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2
Jump Troop
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
Breath of Chaos (Template, wounds on 4+, ignores saves, glances on 4+)


Beasts of Nurgle (pts:same as previous)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 5, W: 2, I: 2, A: d6
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plagueswords (Always wound on 4+ in combat)

Bloodcrushers of Khorne (pts:a bit more than previous)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 5, W: 2, I: 4, A: 3
Furious Charge
Beast
Hellblades (Power weapon)

---
Troops:
The basic troops have option of homers and instrument + possible cc boost for 1 model (or shooting boost to tzeentch like with flamers)

Plaguebearers of Nurgle (pts:marine)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 5, W: 1, I: 2, A: 1
Slow and Purposeful
Feel no Pain
Plagueswords (Always wound on 4+ in combat)

Daemonettes of Slaanesh (pts:a bit less than previous)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 6, A: 3
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)
Rending

Nurglings (a bit less than previous)
WS: 2, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 2, A: 3
Swarm

Bloodletters of Khorne (pts:a bit more than plaguebearers)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Furious Charge
Hellblades (Power weapon)

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch 5-20 (pts:a bit more than the previous)
WS: 2, BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1
Warpfire (18", S4, AP4, Assault 3)
These have a cheap option for upgrading one model to Changeling
Unique
No stat change
Glamour of Tzeentch (Once each enemy shooting phase, may target an enemy
unit within 24". They may choose to not shoot that phase, or to take a Ld check. If they fail,
they must shoot all weapons at a friendly target of the Daemon player's choosing. If they
pass, they act normally. If they fail there are no targets, they do not shoot that turn as if they
choose not to shoot)
---
FA
small combat boosts available per unit except for furies

Seekers of Slaanesh (pts:same as horrors)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 6, A: 4
Cavalry
Rending
Aura of Acquiescence (Unit has offensive and defensive grenades)

Screamers of Tzeentch 3-12 (pts:a bit less than previous)
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Jetbikes
Warp Jaws (Melta Bombs)

Fleshhounds (pts:marine)
WS: 4, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2
Beasts
Furious Charge
a bit more expensive option for - Keranak, Hound of Vengeance, upgrades one Fleshhound
WS: 5, BS: 0, S: 5, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 3
Unique
Beast
Rending
Instrument of Chaos
Furious Charge
Squad gains Move Through Cover

Furies (pts:marine)
WS: 3, BS: 0, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2
Jump Infantry
---
HS:
Soul Grinder (pts:Vindicator with EA & Dozer Blade )
WS: 3, BS: 3, S: 6, Armor: 13/13/11, I: 3, A: 4
2 Dreadnought CCWs (attack bonus included)
Fleet
Immune to Stun and Shaken results
Harvester Cannon (24", S4, AP5, Assault 6)
Maw Cannon, 3 fire modes (1 default, 2 purchasable):
Vomit (Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1)
Upgrade Vomit to (for half a speeder each):
Tongue (24", S10, AP1, Assault 1)
or
Phlegm (36", S8, AP3, Assault 1, Large Blast)

Daemon Prince (pts:Master /w Storm bolter)
WS: 7, BS: 5, S: 5, T: 5, W: 4, I: 5, A: 4
Can get pretty expensive flight (think doubling up the points), some armor and extra str.
Can also get marks which do the same as in Codex:CSM, mostly around the same cost iirc.
If marked, can get some god specific gifts in the vein of herald/greater gifts. Mostly the shooting ones, altough slaneesh prince has option for hit'n'run and the poor man's lash. The gifts cost around 5-30 barring the flight.

this is pretty accurate from what I remember actrually looking at the book at a local GW store.

Uhh... Furies lost S5 and I5? Why take them at I3? Seriously?

Then there's this:

WS: 3, BS: 3, S: 6, Armor: 13/13/11, I: 3, A: 4

Why is it that an unbound Defiler, a daemon fuled by the power of the warp and enhanced with the iron skin gifted to it by man is somehow as skilled in close combat as a Guardsman? WS3 I3? I don't understand.


BYE

Wait... sorry. I've answered my own question.

Why do Furies suck now? Because Furies aren't getting a new model... how could I be so silly to forget that...

BYE

I am not big on the Tongue being only BS3. I think I would rather a BS5 Bolt of Change, if possible.

Sounds crappy. Now I see why Stelek was complaining about them. Shouldn't psychic powers be a little better when used by actual warp entities? Would it have killed them to make BoC S9 or a melta weapon? No army should have to rely on S8 weapons and three expensive BS3 HS choices for AT/MC capability.

I had a glance at the codex last night (late night paint run to the local GW store), and I have to say, the pictures in the codex were theh suk. Every single one (that I saw) was a Blanche drawing. I actually like the occasional Blanche drawing in the codex... but not every single entry.

Blech.

I was psyched to start a daemon army until the actual rules started coming out. Not so sure now.

KiMonarrez wrote: Every single one (that I saw) was a Blanche drawing.

Yay!

Rbb wrote:I was psyched to start a daemon army until the actual rules started coming out. Not so sure now.

Don't doubt your original inclination. Start demons. They're poop-hot. In a good way. I'm visiting my best friend at the bunker, hangin' out with him at work all day (not much else to do when you're crashing on his couch and don't have your own ride) and have been able to run games, get my hands dirty with my beloved plaguebearers, and they are GREAT. Epidemius is AMAZING, as is Ku'gath (the special GUO). It's slow to get started, but once that tally gets rolling, its unstoppable. ounding on a 2+ ignoring armor saves with a 3+ feel no pain... and all I have to do is kill 20 models...

The demon prince options are awesome... god-specific abilities depending on your mark... psychic powers that aren't psychic powers... BS5 S5 AP3 assault 3 shots, yes please. WS7 S6 with wings running around absolutely wrecking things. All sorts of demonic goodness.

The other gods have nice abilities/rules/scary stuff as well, but I'm a Nurgle guy through and through, so I didn't playtest the other gods at all.

Demonic assault is pretty damn awesome. you split your force into 2 halves (as equal in number of units as possible), and pray to the gods. Choose one of the 2 halves, on a roll of a 3-6 you get the half you want, on a 1-2 you get the other half. The half that doesnt show on turn 1 roll for reserves as normal after that. Give your opponent a turn to do as much damage as they can, then you get to wreck their world.

It's 3 am and I'm rambling now, so off to bed... but the demons get an A+ in my book.

Something to note, unlike with nid Rippers Nurgling swarms keep their immunity to instant death.

This plus the swarm cover bonus and low prices turns them into an excellent (extra smelly) tarpit unit.

According to staff member who have read the book (I only got a small look) you cannot mix Codex Daemons with the Codex CSM, both armies are seperate. So no Bloodthirsters in World Eater armies, et al just 'greater daemons'.

Also there are no cultist options in the book. For all the daemon add ons thyey offer, as a whole the codex just takes away background themed armies from the game.

I'm not gonna start them as a standalone army, but a little nurgel stuff here and there and a souldgrinder would make a nice addition to my apocalypse Death Guard Force.

About the anti-tank issue:

I would like to emphasize that the Daemon "psychic powers" are a little better than the CSM ones since they're true shooting attacks and so can't be stopped by Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding, bad dice rolls...etc.

Obviously big tanks like Leman Russes and Land Raiders will be a problem but there are alot of MCs in the army, and many of them fly (and Deepstrike,) which I think provide enough solutions. Don't forget about the Screamers, either.

For the skimmers, I think Str 8 shots (available on the Lords of Change, Daemon Princes, and Horror units) will suffice. Not to mention the Str 10 phlegm attack.

The only real problem is the Monolith, which will bone most Daemon armies. Reminds me of pre-2008 Orks - our weapons are useless, USELESS I TELL YOU! I'm going to wait until 5th comes out, though, before I make any final judgements. Good gaming!

Zoned

Tongue's really the only way to hurt the Monolith. In Fourth Edition, that Pens on a 4+. In Fifth Edition, if the rumours are true, it Glances on a 4, Pens on a 5+, but adds +1 to the single damage table.

Zoned:

I would like to emphasize that the Daemon "psychic powers" are a little better than the CSM ones since they're true shooting attacks and so can't be stopped by Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding, bad dice rolls...etc.

Sure, but no army relies on psychic powers for AT anyway. I know I compared the Daemon's BoC etc. with the CSM powers, and on that point you're right, it does make a kind of sense, but it doesn't change the fact that BoC is hardly a good source of AT. Compare the Daemon BoC with the CSM BoC and it's great. Compare it with a lascannon. . . uh, not so much.

Obviously big tanks like Leman Russes and Land Raiders will be a problem but there are alot of MCs in the army, and many of them fly (and Deepstrike,) which I think provide enough solutions. Don't forget about the Screamers, either.

For the skimmers, I think Str 8 shots (available on the Lords of Change, Daemon Princes, and Horror units) will suffice. Not to mention the Str 10 phlegm attack.

Now if only there was a way to get those "many" MCs and the S10 tongue attack into the same list.

Ah, that Daemons would Deep Strike in Round 1, was new to me.

Now my plan to use the rules for Daemons to represent a full deep striking Tyranid swarm is revitalized.

HQ:
winged close combat Hive Tyrant --> Bloodthirster (if he can fly. It sounds strange to me, that a model with Wings can't fly...) or Lord of Change (so the Tyrant has new psychic abilites)
Dakkafex --> Keeper of Secrets

Elite:
Ravener --> Bloodcrusher
Gargoyles --> Flamers


Troops:
Genestealers --> Daemonettes or Bloodletters
Termagaunts --> Horrors
Rippers --> Nurglings

Fast Attack:
Hormagaunts --> Fleshhounds

Heavy Support:
CC Carnifex --> Daemon Prince
Shooty Fex --> Soulgrinder

The invulnerable save represents a strong psychic synapse force field generated by the swarm.

Well, or maybe not.

yeah...

I still don't get it?
Why is this not compatable with Codex CSM?
Maybe they are planning to do Codex world eaters Codex DeathGuard in WhiteDwarf...
Like they did the Blood angles Codex...
I dunno...

I've said it before where is that SoulGrinder coming from??? where does he reload his ammo? Where does he get his defiler parts?
if this is a deamon incurrsion it's funny that he's the only deamon that's once been part of a CSM force... where's the CSMs and such that got consumed by the warp...

Also Won't it be confusing when a CSM force fights a Deamon force...
eg if i play a deamon army with my CSM plague marines:
my plague bearers will be lesser deamons while my opponents PlagueBearers will be PlagueBearers?
my greater deamon wont count as a GUO where his will and to all purposes kick mine around the table (slowly)...?
that sux... alot... and is stupid...

When the CSM codex came out we were told by JJ not to worry about having CSM Lesser deamons that in a few months our deamons were coming? when?... where? we will still be waiting... after this codex comes out... I guess we will wait some more...

Gutted...

EDIT:
I just printed out every thing in the orignal post... 6 pages... Couldn't this have been included in the CSM codex..
with a deamon only list that has special deamon only characters and deep striking rules?

I will buy the codex... but i doubt i'll like it... how much do you think this has been playtested with actual real world players?
Isn't customer satisfaction worth anything?

Panic
yeah...

To Panic:

I dunno, the split between the CSMs and Daemons reminds of the old split between Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings in 5th edition WHFB. Back in the day, those two armies didn't exist, they were simply part of the Undead army. So you had Vampires running around, supported by Mummy units, Skeleton Chariots and so on.

As I recall, the idea was there is simply so much diversity to the Undead, you could really make two themed armies from the parent list that had their own play style, history, and so on. I don't really remember too much ghashing of the teeth back when that split happened, at certainly most players seemed happy with the two lists.

I feel the same way about the current CSM book. It's not Codex: Chaos, it's Codex: Chaos SPACE MARINES. So the emphasis should be put on the Marines, their history, their rules...etc. The Daemon takes a back seat. Codex Daemons is all about Warp Creatures, so these versions will naturally be more powerful than the enslaved ones the CSM use. I think we can all agree they have a very different play style and feel than the CSMs, as well.

Hope that helps!

Zoned

To T-C

I've been looking at a store copy and playing around with a list. Here's how it looks:

1700pts

HQ

Lord of Change x 2 (Flying MC, BS 5 BoC)

Troops

10 Plaguebearers w/ Icon x 2 (Anchor units for the other Daemons to summon around.)

5 Horrors, BoC x 2 (Chaos Lord's summary omits the fact that Horrors can take a BoC for cheap...it's only BS 3, but it helps.)

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince w/ Wings x 2

Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm

I've got points left over that can fit about 15 Daemonettes (like the fleet.) Maybe I'll fit in 12 and make the DPs Str 6. Gotta take another look at the codex for exact point values.

So 2 BS 5 BoC, 2 BS 3 BoC, 1 BS 3 Str 10 phlegm.

4 Flying MCs.

20 T 5 , 5+ invul, FNP troops. Note that they have true T 5, so will be really hard to wipe out when they Deep Strike in your line Turn 1.

A bunch of fleeting Daemonettes. Fragile, but hopefully they'll take part of a second wave that can fleet into combat with units tied up by one of the 4 flying MCs.

Zoned

yeah...
I agree to some extent... with splitting the list.
But there is a very clear area of cross over the Deamons that should be in both lists....

There are no generic lesser deamon models...
There is no generic greater deamon model...
In Codex CSM it shows plague bearers being used a lesser deamons? And you also have greater deamon models with wings, yet no option of flight...
a raging Blood letter and a plaguebearer... In Codex CSM there are both equals... lesser deamons...
In how many other Codex are you told to use models as counts as?

Why should CSM deamons be less powerful, when a chaos Lord preys to his God, why would the God send only weaker basic deamons? When a marked CSM sacfifices himself to his God, he is replaced by a generic basic greater deamon (for which there is no model... you have to use a counts as)

Just doesn't seem well thought out... the faults are glareing obvious...

EDIT:
I think it would have been better not to offer up the lesser deamons and greater deamons that exist in codex CSM amd just drop them from the list completely... and in white dwarf have JJ explain they are getting their own codex.
then you have you two lists Codex Deamons and Codex CSM.

panic...
yeah...

To Panic - imagine if GW released Lesser Daemon models and said you had to use them in CSM armies to be WYSIWYG. All you older Chaos players have to buy these new models to be WYSIWYG. All those Daemon models you already own? Can't use 'em.

There would be an uproar.

If GW released Lesser Daemon and said you could also use your existing Daemons as Lesser Daemons, how many new Lesser Daemons would they sell? I mean, barring fantastic sculpts and/or amazingly low prices, how many Chaos players are going to shell out money for these models when they already have models they can use perfectly well?

As a tip, I've seen Chaos players put Woof Elf Dryads on round bases, give 'em a gnarly paint scheme, and use them as Lesser Daemons. The branches look like tendrils of warp energy. Very cool.

No Flight on Greater Daemons was a deliberate choice, I'm sure. If they had flight, everyone would take them (barring ridiculous points cost.) Why does every Chaos Space Marine army have flying Greater Daemons in them as staples? I thought this codex was about Chaos Marines?

From a fluff standpoint, I can see why CSM daemons would be less powerful than true Daemons. When Daemons attack on their own, they need special circumstances (warp rift, massive chaos rituals...etc) to fuel their presence. CSMs don't always use these tools, which make it hard for their Daemons to reach the same level of power. Or, some of these Daemons are enslaved to the will of the mortal CSM, who deliberately keep their powers in check lest their allies turn on them. Only when they can feed off abundant Warp energy can Daemons reach their full potential, which is what the new Daemon codex represents.

I really can't see the 40-50 guys a typical 1500pt-1700pt CSM army representing a force that can generate the necessary conditions to summon full fledged Daemons. In an Apocalypsed sized force, maybe.

" EDIT:
I think it would have been better not to offer up the lesser deamons and greater deamons that exist in codex CSM amd just drop them from the list completely... and in white dwarf explain they are getting their own codex.
then you have you two lists Codex Deamons and Codex CSM."

I don't understand you edit...GW did exactly as you proposed. There are two lists, Codex Daemons and Codex CSM. If you don't like the generic Daemons in codex CSM, just don't use them! But by taking them out of codex CSM you make the players who don't want pure Daemon armies waste the models they spent money on. Even as is, you may feel they are a worthless unit in codex CSM (a debateable point,) but at least you could use them if you wanted. Taking the option out means I have guruanteed wasted my money.

Zoned

Zoned - the point is Jervis implied that the two codices would be able to ally, giving chaos players hope that the fluff-nerf was only temporary. Now we know it isn't, I'm not surprised that people feel a little cheated.

Hmmm. I read that Standard Bearer article and it didn't seem to me like that's what JJ implied. I guess it could be interpreted that way, though.

Zoned

Im ocnvinced im taking Skulltaker. Opponents are gona cry when i start tearing up their leaders with him. Can't wait. Being a purist of the blood god, im playing all khorne. I was angry that my two world eater armies got nerfed. Now at least, my daemon bomb one will be better then ever. Bloodthirster+Skull Taker+Another herald= Marines (at least when they get a new book) crying.

If CSM had full-power Daemons, then the CSM have less emphasis. Separating the two was a good thing, as the CSM list really does revolve around CSM.

Also, you can still take the two together in Apocalypse.

Besides the rumor mill is very clear that GW will eventually do books for each of the 4 Chaos Powers.

So basically, Chaos players will be forced to pick and choose a theme, whether they're CSM, Daemons, or a particular power. To me, that's the same as Loyalists picking Blue, Red, Green, Black, or "grey".

Orlanth wrote:According to staff member who have read the book (I only got a small look) you cannot mix Codex Daemons with the Codex CSM, both armies are seperate. So no Bloodthirsters in World Eater armies, et al just 'greater daemons'.

What's a "World Eater army"? I don't see any such thing in C:CSM.

Panic wrote:Why is this not compatable with Codex CSM?

It is!*

* In Apocalypse.

I've said it before where is that SoulGrinder coming from??? where does he reload his ammo? Where does he get his defiler parts?

From the Daemon Prince! The Daemon Prince is like a CSM sales rep. He goes and negotiates deals to sell Defiler parts to the daemons. They need the Daemon Prince to act as a broker because regular CSMs don't speak daemonese.* So the daemons get their Heavy Support choices and the Daemon Prince gets his commission (in daemon dollars).

* This is why CSMs can't summon daemons from the Daemon codex - the only daemons that can speak gothic are the Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons. Unfortunately, since they spend so much time studying for their GSL (gothic as a second language) classes, aspiring bilingual daemons don't really have time to go to the daemon gym so they aren't as strong as other daemons - this is why they are often called "Lesser" Daemons. Sometimes an out-of-shape daemon who isn't careful about watching his calorie intake will get so fat he won't be able to fly anymore no matter how hard he flaps his daemon wings - such a daemon becomes known as a "Greater" Daemon due to his size.

Zoned: I like the idea of the Dryads as Daemons, but I was also thinking something even cheaper using spare greenstuff I have lying around: Brueste-Daemons! Like Daemonettes, but without all the claws and non-nipply parts.

Couple thoughts as i continue to read some of the mouth-breathing no-thinking knee-jerk comments from people who haven't even read the book...

For whoever was asking...G.Demons DO fly... thirsters and birdies... the SPECIAL CHARACTER thirster doesn't fly, but fleets...

There's some nice fluff about how soul grinders are constructed, how they are coveted by demons to enter the corporial universe with because of how much more durable they are then flesh, and about the oaths and bindings a soul grinder demon has to go through to get its massive metal body.

About there not being specific models for lesser GDemons and LDemons... umm... Belikor, a wingless balrog, converted giant, converted dragon, I could go on. Its a hobby of imagination, use it.

Now, as for the compatibility of C:demons and C:CSM... I'm an age-old tried and true devotee of Nurgle. I've been playing Death guard since before they were good. My 3rd ed. DG lists always included Plaguebearers, and often a GUO. That being said, the new C:CSM is NOT Ceath guard, or Codex: World Eaters, etc. The new C:demons is NOT C:Fix-the-Old-CSM-List-so-People-Will-Quit-Bitching. Was I bummed that plaguebearers and my poop god are gone from my Death guard (for the time being at least, depending on the afore-mentioned Legion books)? You bet your ass. But to put plaguebearers IN a death guard list would be so unbelievably broken, it would be unbelievable. SO... broken...

I for one applaud the way they have gone with Cemons. For starters, all the griping about NOT being compatible with C:CSM would turn into even MORE, LOUDER griping about how broken and overpowered Chaos is with the specific demons mingled in with cult armies. It would be recoculous. The demons book has a TON of character, is a list that is both challenging and powerful, and is just a HELL of a lot of fun to play.

Poopbuckets, I exhausted-rambled again... I need to stop posting after a 14 hour day at the bunker...

DeathGod wrote:Its a hobby of imagination, use it.

I tried to, but they took away my army list. And then they took away my bitz.