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Blame the fluff and rules not Stelek, he didn't write the Eldar codex. All warlocks are ex-Aspect warriors too, no S4 or I6 for them either.

Re: Iron Warriors: All the Iron Warriors players were complaining because they had models they couldn't use any more (Basilisks etc.). That's no losing crutches that's just getting skanked. Bloodletters were IMO over powered, just like they were in 2nd edition. Their new incarnation in New Codex:(read my lips no new Codices - except this one!) Daemons seem to me to be a little more balanced, and they have nicer models too (very Cthooloo).

Stelek's right about Aspect Warriors - they have to train - the suit is just armour. I'm pretty sure this is even laid out in the current codex, but it's definitely in the 2nd ed. version. As far as I remember, Aspect Warriors are the Eldar's standing army, while the farmers/cooks/etc. only pick up a catapult in times of 'dire need' and the like.

What? Where do these I6 Banshees exist?? You aren't being clear here. Do you mean ex-aspect Guardians? Autarchs?

I believe the point being made is that a book that has both aspect and guardian units allows you to field either all of one or the other, or a combination. Splitting into two different groups takes away the freedom to have a combination. Chaos Marines are ,partly, defined by their allegiance to the Chaos Gods and summoning their demons. A combination.
The splitting of the two forces into mutually exclusive books is therefore a net loss in freedom, if you will.

JohnHwangDD wrote:HMBC, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

I don't read the words of freedom-h8rs like you.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that I would prefer to play an Aspect-oriented army, I'd like GW to split the lists to give me the FREEDOM to play the army that I want to.

Or, perhaps, a list that allows both without requiring two separate lists, giving people the freedom to do what they like.

BYE

Ugh, Eldar are boring. I thought this was a demon thread?

Exarchs (and Phoenix Lords) have lots of soul stones embedded in their armour. The soul stones contain the personalities of the previous wearers. In the case of the Phoenix Lords, that personality completely subsumes whatever mortal Eldar is wearing the armour. When an Eldar becomes an Exarch, he changes his name to his armour's name.

Some of this is pretty old fluff (from the Yellow Book and Ian Watson's Inquisition War) so it may have been contradicted since then.

cerebaton wrote:Stelek's right about Aspect Warriors - they have to train - the suit is just armour. I'm pretty sure this is even laid out in the current codex, but it's definitely in the 2nd ed. version. As far as I remember, Aspect Warriors are the Eldar's standing army, while the farmers/cooks/etc. only pick up a catapult in times of 'dire need' and the like.

Aspect Warriors follow the Path of the warrior. When they are not fighting they meditate at their shrine like warrior monks. Everyone else follows the Path of the Whatever.

I finally got a look at the book today, and i think it is more survivable then everyone gives credit too. Unless your doing a cheese Mech army (tau, eldar, etc) daemons can survive a round of shooting, especially in 5th ed where you can screen letters with plaguebearers. Thirsters still are incredibly tough, skulltaker eats pretty much anycharacter and can run thorugh unit just as easily. Bloodcrushers are great too, and the soulgrinder is way more survivable then the defiler. just my opinion reading the book. in fantasy, the special character lord of change knows 14 SPELLS!!!! each head can pick i think like spells from lore of metal, fire, death, etc, then each head also knows all the tzeentch spells, giving it a total of 14 spells. That and its a great spellcaster too.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I would be surprised if marketing was behind the split in the Chaos Codices.

Oh JohnHwangDD, you are so naive it's adorable. Marketing has been behind everything ever since Andy Chambers left (and probably for a good time before).

Being able to split Chaos into CSM and Daemons to sell a 2nd Codex upfront, followed by 4 more Codices was just convenient smoke to blow up management's skirt.

Where do you keep getting this ridiculous notion that there will be 4 more Chaos codices? What would go in them? The rules for these armies already exist - the only problem is that they spread across 2 separate stand-alone codices and several Apocalypse datasheets and thus cannot be used in regular 40K.

Any way you look at it, Daemon armies will be cheap if you use the "correct" cheap, plastic Daemons and avoid the expensive, crappy-looking Tzeentch and Nurgle stuff.

What crappy-looking Tzeentch stuff?

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:each head can pick i think like spells from lore of metal, fire, death, etc

What?! WHFB has lores of metal, fire, and death?! Why can't 40K be awesome like that?

Boss_Salvage wrote:For the record ...

Divide your army into 2 halves before the game begins. Pick the half you want to strike first turn, roll a 3+ and they strike down. On a 1-2 the other half arrives first turn. From there, all remaining units arrive as normal deep strikers, so 4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, etc.

You can't see the eyes of the daemon until him come callin'.

This is dread, man. Truly dread.

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:I finally got a look at the book today, and i think it is more survivable then everyone gives credit too. Unless your doing a cheese Mech army (tau, eldar, etc) daemons can survive a round of shooting,

so what you're saying is that 9.9 times out of 10, daemons won't survive sh-t?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Marketing has been behind everything ever since Andy Chambers left (and probably for a good time before).

It has...and it should be. They're a public company. GW isn't a small shop of creative types anymore. They have shareholders to answer to, and they need number-crunching types to tell the creatives what they need to be working on to keep the ship afloat. That's just their business reality.

What I question in this case is whether their business people have a good read on their customers and their wants, and WHY certain things sell or don't sell.

The limitations of the Daemon codex are frustrating, although I can at least see a (misguided) business strategy. Now, no Horus Heresy supplement anywhere on the horizon? That's truly shocking, and IMO points to some real myopia on GW's part. Do they really think the Planetstrike supplement will have a wider appeal than a HH add-on?

gorgon wrote:

What I question in this case is whether their business people have a good read on their customers and their wants, and WHY certain things sell or don't sell.

The limitations of the Daemon codex are frustrating, although I can at least see a (misguided) business strategy. Now, no Horus Heresy supplement anywhere on the horizon? That's truly shocking, and IMO points to some real myopia on GW's part. Do they really think the Planetstrike supplement will have a wider appeal than a HH add-on?

Excellent point. I don’t play marines but even I would be tempted if they came out with a Codex: Heresy. It could be an excuse for the dread pirate Legions the chaos boys want.
On the modeling side it could have bits/pads, some minis for main characters, mayhaps even a limited edition Horus (which everyone would use for Abaddon after that), and of course the patron saint of meatshields Oallanius Pius. A summer campaign could be had, recreating some of the primary events of the HH. “Drop site massacre month” Attack on earth month that sort of thing. No need to worry about “who won” just a celebration of the joy of heresy (recreating the actions).

Economics:
*new codex
*new minis bits (shoulder pads etc)
*new major minis and heroes
*new vehicles (drop pods, storm birds, TBD)
*new campaign book (aka like the Sabbat and 13th Crusade art campaign books)

gorgon wrote:GW isn't a small shop of creative types anymore.

Ain't that the truth!

BYE

Don't leave out:

*synergies with the very popular book series
*collectible character miniatures for those that aren't even interested in playing
*artwork already done
*plenty of existing fluff and text to pull from

...and most importantly...

*opportunity to sell new SM armies, even to those with existing armies

That's right, it's a chance to sell MORE SMs, and GW's passing it up. Either one of two things (or both) must be keeping it from happening:

1) Business side thinks it'll somehow detract from sales of existing lines and/or distract and confuse customers
2) Creative side doesn't think it fits into their creative vision

Whatever the holdup is, those individuals should be fired, really. Businesses a lot larger than GW would have shown more nimbleness in moving on this kind of opportunity.

I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.

That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.

I agree that GW, as a company, should reach more into HH times and other time lines. It would give older players more reasons to spend money and the more you excite your existing player base, the more likely they will do the word of mouth advertising necessary to develop new player bases.

But on the subject of Daemons,
I'll trust that my daemons will survive at least one round of shooting, and remember to give me great comp/sportsmanship scores when I inevitably lose.

I don't think the list has tri-falcon equivalent setups, but I see a lot, perhaps an absurb amount, of room for generalship in this army. With deepstriking, the massive amount of good fast units (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, Mounted Daemonettes, mounted Herlad of Khorne/Slaanesh), a solid choice of MC's (if a bit overpriced, especially a flying DP), and one of the hardiest troop choices (T5 ++5 FNP), there is a whole lot of room for a better than I general to exploit.

I know that Daemons will be my main tourney army, even if everything negative that has been said holds true, it will still teach me to be a better general. If nothing else, I cannot help but love most of the mini's, even good ol sluggo (which may immediately negate anything I've just said.)

Blackmoor wrote:I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.

That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.

Remember after you beat the noobs and the painters in rounds 1-3, you have to face real opponents in rounds 4-5.

So remember what you said here, and don't cry when your comp score gets knocked by the first bunch and your battle score gets knocked by the second.

lemurking23 wrote:I don't think the list has tri-falcon equivalent setups, but I see a lot, perhaps an absurb amount, of room for generalship in this army. With deepstriking, the massive amount of good fast units (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, Mounted Daemonettes, mounted Herlad of Khorne/Slaanesh), a solid choice of MC's (if a bit overpriced, especially a flying DP), and one of the hardiest troop choices (T5 ++5 FNP), there is a whole lot of room for a better than I general to exploit.

Don't forget to field those good fast units you're going to be spending two or three (or four, or five) times what you normally do.

The best (being subjective) units cost the most money.

Blackmoor said he already has the army.

So he isn't planning on running:

Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Beast of Nurgle, Fiend of Slaanesh, Soul Grinder, Epidemius, Karanak, Skulltaker, The Masque; or any multiples of the new heralds.

Neat, so it'll be old greater demons, the regular demons, any of the old packs, and possibly converted defilers or demon princes.

My guess is 90 demonettes. Which don't do so hot against mech lists in 5th.

One of the first armies we tried, and even screened by plague bearers it was crap.

Well, if anyone is under the belief the old demons can be made into a killer army without the new releases...

I wonder what will constitute a good comp score for this army? I know a single god theme will get a good score, but what about undivided like the list is intended to be? If I take bloodletters, nurglings, and plaguebearers for troops, and take tzeentch HQ and heavy support, will I get a bad comp?

mortal888 wrote:I wonder what will constitute a good comp score for this army? I know a single god theme will get a good score, but what about undivided like the list is intended to be? If I take bloodletters, nurglings, and plaguebearers for troops, and take tzeentch HQ and heavy support, will I get a bad comp?

I don't think so, bud. Only the old school chaos players would ding you, and the uneducated new players who've been told "mixing is cheese".

You really need every trick in the bag to even stand a chance anyway.

I've found most people are very kind on their comp scores when they table you--kicking your opponents when they're down is low.

You can always tweek your mixed units. I will use demonettes for the demon list (and stand ins as gaunts for my counts as Nids). I intend to mix in a few beastment heads to link them to the rest of my beastie themed army.

Blackmoor wrote:I want everyone to remember what they are saying here.

That way, when I win with my demons you don’t complain about how cheesy my army is and dock my comp scores.

Hey, I'm withholding judgment on the competitiveness of the army. When you win, I'll just tell you that you built one fine army out of that conceptually "meh" codex.

Stelek wrote:I don't think so, bud. Only the old school chaos players would ding you, and the uneducated new players who've been told "mixing is cheese".

Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.

The entire fluff segment of the codex seems to be dedicated to telling us how it's Daemons vs. ALL. It's one big happy Chaotic family.

Stelek wrote:

I've found most people are very kind on their comp scores when they table you--kicking your opponents when they're down is low.

So that's why I always get good soft scores....maybe I should just tank the inevitable one game I win/tie so I can reach the sportsmanship award. Now daemons really are going to be my tourny army...good...good.

Yes, the newer models do seem to be a bit more powerful. A smart move for a business, 12 bucks for one mounted daemonette is pretty staggering. Nothing like a 20 man unit that costs 340 points and 240 dollars.

Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.

I have to admit, painting several colors for one army sounds fun. After painting the 50th model or so the same color as all the rest, I get bored. I even plan on painting all the bases different colors to coincide with the different realms the demons would have spawned from. I wish they would have stuck to their old rules formats of giving bonuses to legions of all the same god, but I still would have made an undivided army for this one just for monotony's sake.

mortal888 wrote:

Looking at the CSM and Daemon books, I think it's pretty clear that Chaos Skittles are what GW WANTS us to play.

I have to admit, painting several colors for one army sounds fun. After painting the 50th model or so the same color as all the rest, I get bored.

And that is why we have spray paint.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And that is why we have spray paint.

LOL! Good one!

I spray paint the first base coat on my `Nids and Necrons before I even cut em off the sprue! After that it's mostly all dry brushing. Made sure it was an easy easy paint job since I was going to be doing tons of em.

No spawn in a demon army? Bollucks.

I'll be using my spawn as fiends of slaanesh, beasts of nurgle, and bloodcrushers of khorn then. They'll look better than the new models anyway.