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That is the stupidest reason I've heard. "Fall into enemy hands?" So does that mean that single vehicles like Rhinos and Land Raiders have to keep moving or they'll fall into enemy hands too? Also, what if they are contesting an objective? Should they just keep moving then too? But somehow this stops being a factor to a vehicle squadron once they are reduced to a single model? I'd much rather have it the old way than this idiotic simplification.

Gork save me... At least the vehicles in a squadron got a little bit tougher just because of the new damage chart.

I've always hated that LOS issue with tools that think you an shoot underneath a dread's legs or some such. Yes, your troops are so cool-minded and are waiting for just that exact moment when the dread's legs stop moving to crack off that impossible shot in the chaos of a firefight to hit the smaller unit beyond it that you could never have known was there and could never have seen... Guess I'm going to have to model up rocks and debris that fill in that gap underneath a walker's legs.

On the plus side, this version of the LOS rules stops that incredibly stupid "magic cylinder" that some people like to use to block inordinate amounts of targets behind a smaller vehicle...

meeh... while I agree it doesn't make all the sense in the world, its an interesting game mechanic.... I think vehicle squadrons are benefiting from the new chart, as well as the fact that most are walkers and are going to *love* cover saves.

blown up on immobilized is more of a hit than ignoring stunned for almost all walkers, so its an overall power down.

Oh well. aside from vehicles moving and shooting, I really hated 4th when it came out, now aside from vehicles being pillboxes because of Str 4 Def weapons, I like almost everything I hear. (including the new wound application stuff)

Have they dropped the +1 on the chart for damage to open-topped vehicles?

Okay, LGS owner is good friend and I got to spend some up close and personal time with the new book last night. Here are some of the things I noticed. I know some of these may have already been posted, but I may repost as the info swirls around in my head and ends on this post as typage diarreah. Let me start by saying a large amount of information that was in the PDF that was floating aroung is in the book.

LOS: The game is moving to true LOS. Even with area terrain in some regaurds. LOS is measured from the models eyes to the targets body. If any part of the target models body is obscured it it counts as in cover. They count the body as head, torso, arm, leg. Area terrain... the models base simply has to be partially in the base of the area terrain. If I am reading correctlly, and I read this part about 100 times...The way the terrain is modeled can still block line of sight. So you can shoot through a piece of area terrain if the terrain is modeled where you can see the target model, but the model will get cover. If the terrain is modeled so, you can not see the target (ie the target is behind a wall), then you can not shoot.

Units in Cover: The majority of a target unit has to be in cover to a majority of the shooting unit in order to get cover. If an intervening model is obscuring the target (ie another unit friend or foe) the target gets a 4+ cover.

Range: Range and LOS from shooting unit is measured from shooter to closest target model. This means that an entire shooting unit will get to fire all their weapons if only one model is in range and LOS. Also, models out of range and LOS can be issued wounds.

Damage: This is exactly like the PDF but with one change (or a change to what I remember). You roll to hit, roll to wound, and then you allocate those wounds to the models in the unit. Once all the wounds have been allocated, you make saves for the models wounded. (Here is the change)...Like models(profile and equipment) are grouped and rolled together, and casualties taken.

Pistols: Pistols are now assault 1 weapons.

Blast Weapons: Just like PDF. Models touched are hit, and shooter rolls deviation and 2d6 minus the BS of the shooter.

Sniper: All are pinning and rending. All do Str 3 hits vs Vehicles.

Barrage Weapons: Shots in LOS roll deviation and 2d6-BS, shots out of LOS roll deviation and 2d6(full, no -BS).

Close Combat: Right out of the PDF. All units that are assualted get counter attack that ignores terrain. You are not allowed to consolidate into a new unit. All consolidation is D6. Loser makes LD test with a modifier equal to the differnce in wound caused. For example, I cause 8 wounds and you cause 3. You would make a LD test at -5 (8-3+5). There are no modifiers for outnumbered, and I did not remember seeing any modifiers for being below half.

Jump infantry: Jump infantry make a dangerous terrain test if they START or END their move in difficult terrain.

Monsterous Creatures: They only gain cover if they are at least 50% covered. Area terrain is affected by this, so if the actual model of the are terrain does not cover at least 50% of the model, the MC does not benefit from the cover. Can never be pinned. MCs can always shoot with two weapons.

ICs: ICs that end their move within 2" of a unit automaticly attach. If you do not want to attach, or the model is unable to attach, you MAY NOT move to within 2". ICs still fight as a separete unit in CC.

Jet bikes: They can no longer hover over terrain. If they start or end their move over/in difficult terrain they must make a dangerous terrain test.

Vehicles, shooting from : Moving and firing has been well covered here so I will not repeat. They clearly define some of the fire arcs. All weapons can fire up and down no more than 45 degrees.

Vehicles, shooting to: Over 50% of the facing targeted must be obscured for it to claim cover. If a model is completly block to the side he is on, but can see another side of the vehicle he can shoot but the vehicle gets a cover to represtent the chance of the high angle shot deflecting.

Damage Chart: This has also been covered quite a bit. No forcing out of passengers on penetrating hits.

Transports: Pretty much the same, a few notable exceptions. Embarked models in destroyed vehicles. Wrecked vehicles (#5 on the chart), embarked models disembark if possible and make a pinning test. No damage is done to passengers. Exploded Vehicle (#6 on the chart), the vehicle is removed and the models are placed where the vehicle was (no disembarking). Passengers inside take a STR 4 AP - hit, and a pinning check. A unit shooting at a transport, can assualt the passengers in the assault phase if it destroys the vehicle in the shooting phase.

Tank Shock: Minor change here..a result of stunned, immobilized, or destroyed stops the shocking vehicle. I do not think stunned had any effect before.

Skimmers: No more hovering over terrain. If they end start or end their move over/in difficult terrain they must make a DT. They only gain the 4+ cover for moving if they move over 12". It does not say anywhere that I can find that a skimmer does not block LOS.

Walkers: Walkers can run. Walkers can move and fire all weapons.

USRs General: No more And They Shall Know No Fear, not sure if this will end up in the marine codex or if marines will no longer get this. They have added a few rules and adjusted several others.

Hit and Run: The unit must succeed at an initiative check in order to withdraw, failure means unit may not move out. This is not a contest of intitiative like at the end of CC, it is a roll vs units initiative and a 6 always fails.

Feel no Pain: Big changes here. This ability does not work against insta-kill weapons (not just str double toughness), AP 1 or 2 weapons, and any weapon that denies an armor save (ie rending or power weapons).

Stubborn: This is a new rule that works like WFB. The stubborn unit does not suffers penalties to its LD check in CC.

Relentless: This is another new one. They basicly created a rule to show what units are stable platforms and do can shoot their weapons when they move. IE..heavy, rapid fire, ect.

Missions: There are three missions. Also well covered on the forums. Not going to go over them.

Deployment: Deployment is not back and forth like it was. Players roll, winner chooses to go first or second. The player who goes first chooses table side, and deploys all his army. The opposing player then does the same (opposite sides of course). Then they player who deployed first, takes his first turn. The player who is going second, can attempt to "Seize The Initiative". If he rolls a 6, he takes the first turn instead of his opponent.

Intact Buildings: Intact building are basicly handled like a stationary transport now. Models move to within 2" of the door and "embark" into the building. Models inside, may shoot out firing holes. Two models per whole may fire. A template weapon that touches the building causes d6 hits on the unit inside. Models wishing to get out "Disembark" at the door.

Preliminary Bombardment. Units are hit on a 6, and units hit suffer a d6 Str5 ap4 hits. I think cover is taken as normal, but can't remember.

Ok, this is pretty much all I can muster on a brain dump. This book has not really calmed many of my concerns for the game, but I am going to try and keep an open mind until I see them in practice. There are a bunch of holes that will need to be patched at release to accomodate for old codexes, and this probably scares me the most.

All the changes here seem fairly positive in my mind. The destroyed immobile squadron vehicles is a bit odd, but thats not really lessoning their effectiveness. Especially considering those killa kans can now run. It's probably just there to speed up games a little bit.

As for the falcon getting nerfed.. Good. When a single low armor vehicle is several times harder to kill than a land raider something is very wrong.

Greebynog wrote:TBH I think PKs for orks just got a boost (yay!), AV 14, meet my big power klaw. Oh sorry, AV10. But I get one less attack, so that's only 4 on the charge for a nob...at strength 8. Ouch. I'll miss 25" movement trukks though.

FYI Nobs autoglance every WS-less vehicle in the game except land raiders if they hit it in close combat.

S9+1=10.

They tend to penetrate them.

When I got the latest rules a couple months ago, all of my Trukk boyz immediately got a nob with a PK. lol

Everything else seems spot on.

No one seems to have mentioned the dirty pool tactic of hiding lesser vehicles behind a land raider.

LR leads the way, preds hide behind it and get a very nice cover save and lose 1 sponsons worth of firing.

It works equally well with vehicle squadrons hiding your other vehicles, and even weak vehicles drawing fire from stronger ones so they don't get a cover save.

Leapfrogging smokers is another annoying tactic.

You'll see what I mean when you get to play.

Stelek wrote:

Greebynog wrote:TBH I think PKs for orks just got a boost (yay!), AV 14, meet my big power klaw. Oh sorry, AV10. But I get one less attack, so that's only 4 on the charge for a nob...at strength 8. Ouch. I'll miss 25" movement trukks though.

No one seems to have mentioned the dirty pool tactic of hiding lesser vehicles behind a land raider.

LR leads the way, preds hide behind it and get a very nice cover save and lose 1 sponsons worth of firing.

It works equally well with vehicle squadrons hiding your other vehicles, and even weak vehicles drawing fire from stronger ones so they don't get a cover save.

Leapfrogging smokers is another annoying tactic.

You'll see what I mean when you get to play.

Using land raiders as mobile fortifications for the rest of your army is fluffy and something they should have been able to do all along. Though I'm wondering when i will first begin to see ten chimeras pressed against eachother slightly turned to the left, thus giving them all a heavy cover save and forcing front armor.

I don't think that will work the way you think it will, ShumaGorath...but who knows, AV12 hordes are coming...so it might be!

Someone mentioned vehicles counting as relentless... Does this mean that they can move and shoot assault and rapid fire weapons in addition to a main weapon and defensive weapons?

Basically I'm wondering how my Tau vehicles will work under the new rules. The 4+ cover save just made Disruption Pods a must buy at 5 points, but is it worth it to take Smart Missle Systems on any of my tanks anymore? At least all the other races have pintle mounted Str. 4 weapons or shuriken catapults, etc. Tau don't actually have a single strength 4 weapon in the entire army list outside the suit mounted flamers and airbursting frag projectors. Are Gun Drones the order of the day now? Or do Burst Cannons being Assault 3 allow Tau tanks to move and fire them as well as a single heavy weapon?

Also, vehicle squadrons seem more survivable period now, which is good because they fell apart under a stiff wind in 4th. Skimmer squadrons would always lose a vehicle to immobilization anyway, so counting stunned as shaken just makes them that much tougher in addition to the more favorable damage chart, and Walker Squadrons are probably just going to set up in cover and ignore half their hits anyway.

I looked at the copy at the LGS today and must say that I'm quite disappointed. Every rule that I hate is getting published.

1) S4 defensive weapons
2) Wound allocation by model
3) Powerfist loosing extra attack unless with another powerfist
4) No consolidation into another unit
5) Blast weapons drifting 2D6 - BS

I'm sure there will be more items once I actually get a chance to site down and read the whole thing. I am honestly thinking about shelving 40K till the next edition. The game is getting away from any aspect of tactics and list construction and more towards a who rolls better game. I'll wait till SM and Guard come out before making my descision. If they get to ignore most of the crap core rules like usual, then I'm done with this until the next edition. I'll go play Warmachine where tactics trump dice randomness and the designers don't caker to the whiners who get their face pushed in.

*Looks at page*

*Looks at Carnifexi with Symbiotic Rippers and Thornbacks*

*Looks at page*

*Sighs*

*Puts six out of ten carnifexi on the shelf*

Ok, a bit of hyperbole there. However, no outnumbering anymore? So what's the point of the numerous skills that boost the "counts as X models" score of MCs and so on?

Warmachine is a very fun game. That whole "play like you got a pair" theme just rubs me the wrong way. Hasn't stopped me from sinking $$$ into my armies, though !

Solasun wrote:*Looks at page*

*Looks at Carnifexi with Symbiotic Rippers and Thornbacks*

*Looks at page*

*Sighs*

*Puts six out of ten carnifexi on the shelf*

Ok, a bit of hyperbole there. However, no outnumbering anymore? So what's the point of the numerous skills that boost the "counts as X models" score of MCs and so on?

With a new edition of rules, there are always going to be some random things that get set to the wayside. Grot Riggers for example, and Multi-trackers on Tau vehicles (for the most part). The nice thing about alot of the Tyranid bio-mutations (or whatever they're called) is that just because you have something modeled on doesn't mean you're going to have to take it. Your rippers, for example, are now just a modeling addition. Think Cloverfield and how it drips off those smaller creatures for example. It's unlikely your carnifex is actually going to need an outnumbering bonus to make units break anymore. You kill five guys and they do 0-1 wounds to you and the average unit is looking at taking a leadership test on a 3-4 leadership. That's way better than anything the outnumbering bonus gave you in 4th.

Hehe. They were modelling additions anyway, making a Carnifex spiky is a joy.

The point I was mostly making is, GW in Codex: Tyranids for example seems to make a big thing out of it (we get TWO biomorphs that give us outnumbering on the Fex) even though it's totally useless.

These new rules are joyous for my Carnifexi, they're going to reach melee alive and they will reap a fountain of blood.


Anyway, blabbering aside, not wanting to get too off-topic...

Does anyone have a rough estimate of how many little rules like Thornback have been waylaid at this point due to the edition change?

Does a 4th Edition codex still supercede the BBB as well? (Since 3rd seems to still?)

I'd be interested to know about the "outflank" move via infiltrating/scouting reserves. I'm assuming the mission actually has to have the "reserves" special rule, to you know, actually place units in reserve.

WhiteDevil wrote:I'd be interested to know about the "outflank" move via infiltrating/scouting reserves. I'm assuming the mission actually has to have the "reserves" special rule, to you know, actually place units in reserve.

If I remember correctly, all missions use reserves, scout, infiltrate, and deep strike rules. As for how it works, you declare during normal deployment that you are using the outflank deployment for your scouts. When they become available, you roll a d6. 1-2 they come on the right side of the table, 2-3 they come on the left side, 5-6 you choose the side.

That makes me think of some other bits of info...

Reserve: Models moving on the table from reserve measure their movement as if they are just off the table (ie. You measure from the edge).

Deep Strike: I believe this is in the trial; if a unit is to deep strike you place the first model and roll for deviation. Deviate 2d6, and then place the first model. After that create a circle around the first, completing a circle before starting another, and so on as is normal now. If for some reason a model can not be placed (the first or any in a circle) because of impassible terrain, friendly model, or enemy model or within 1" of enemy model there is a mishap table you must roll on. 1-2 the unit is lost, 2-3 the opposing player gets to place the unit anywhere he chooses in a legal deep strike formation (ie he cant place them somewhere hoping to force another roll on the mishap chart, and must place them in a circle type set up), and 5-6 the goes back into reserve and does not arrive this turn. Also, models that end their deep strike in difficult terrain must make a dangerous terrain test.

I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Drop pods don't scatter.

loomisc wrote:
Range: Range and LOS from shooting unit is measured from shooter to closest target model. This means that an entire shooting unit will get to fire all their weapons if only one model is in range and LOS. Also, models out of range and LOS can be issued wounds.

The first part (about firing) is not true as there is a diagram on the bottom left corner of page 17 that clearly shows an ork who is out of range but his squad is not.

BTW this is a quote:
"Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of thsee weapons."
There is nothing about thunder hammers allowing the +1 attack when used with a power fist.

If an IC has a Retinue he counts as part of the squad in CC, BUT if he joins a squad he counts a single model unit.

Drop pods don't scatter? Well, not having any access to a pre-release rulebook or faq or pdf or really any data source besides you folks here (b/c I am floating around on a dang boat, have been for a month and a half, and WILL be when the book comes out, grumble cry moan), I am a bit suprised by this. Care to enlighten me? What DO they do? Just come straight on down where ever you decide to place them?

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Does this mean a lictor takes damage every time it shows up? It always has to deep strike into cover.

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Daemons don't scatter when DS'ing within 6" of a Chaos Icon

Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Chaos Icon
When a friendly unit Deep Strikes within 6" of an Icon of Chaos it does not roll to scatter, provided that the icon was on the table from the beginning of the turn and has not arrived from Reserves in the same turn

Defensive Weapons = ST4, thats a win for DE Disintegrators 24" Range ST4, AP3 Heavy 3 Sustained Shots

loomisc wrote:
If I remember correctly, all missions use reserves, scout, infiltrate, and deep strike rules. As for how it works, you declare during normal deployment that you are using the outflank deployment for your scouts. When they become available, you roll a d6. 1-2 they come on the right side of the table, 2-3 they come on the left side, 5-6 you choose the side.

That's quite different from the PDF then. So ALL missions have all the generic mission special rules? That's interesting. So I can always count on my units being able to infiltrate/deepstrike if they have said skill?

Can you confirm this?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Drop pods don't scatter.

When did drop pods stop scattering?

The thornpods on carnies will still be good against fearless models, right?

Also, I am curious how drop pods will work - they do scatter, but they stop when they hit impassible terrain currently (so aren't destroyed).

Freaky Freddy wrote:

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Daemons don't scatter when DS'ing within 6" of a Chaos Icon

Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Chaos Icon
When a friendly unit Deep Strikes within 6" of an Icon of Chaos it does not roll to scatter, provided that the icon was on the table from the beginning of the turn and has not arrived from Reserves in the same turn

How are you gonna have icons on the field in turn 1? Half of the army is gonna deep strike without an icon to help. And drop pods do scatter, but have a guidance system to keep them from entering impassable terrain.

Deployment system:

Sounds identical to the WM/Hordes system, which works well and reduces the impact of loosing turn 1. So I think this is a good move.

However the removal of area terrain and move to 'true LOS' is a big mistake. This will lead to more arguments and longer games. Or just less terrain in order to reduce arguments, which will lead to less tactical play.

Shame really, I'm not sure why area terrain was considered a problem that had to be removed.

liljeremyd wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Stelek wrote:I can't wait for demons and drop pods to drop into terrain and die. It's quite amusing really. "Woops..."

Drop pods don't scatter.

When did drop pods stop scattering?

They didn't.

You roll scatter and 2d6 as normal, and if a scatter is rolled then it moves the distance specified by the 2d6. However, if it were to land in a place that would cause it (and it's contents) to be destroyed, you move it *the minimum distance* required to allow it to land safely.

Example: Your drop pod with, lets say a dreadnought, inside of it scatters over a large unit of chaos space marines. You move it the shortest distance possible and set it down just outside of 1" from the daemon models, then disembark from your drop pod such that your dread is farther than 1" from any enemy models.

Not sure how it works if the drop pod scatters off-table, I've never actually seen that happen personally. Be that as it may, I'd assume the drop pod would allow you to place it on the edge of the table, rather than being destroyed, but that's a rules query to bring up in another part of this forum.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

ubermosher wrote:
I only glanced at ramming, but noticed it said +1 S for each 3" moved that turn... Cheesy image of Vypers with Star Engines dancing in my head. Non-skimmers attempting to ram a skimmer, give target skimmer a 3+ save to avoid.

There was much discussion in my LGS about Kamikaze Vypers being a common sight in this edition.

Crimson Devil wrote:

ubermosher wrote:
I only glanced at ramming, but noticed it said +1 S for each 3" moved that turn... Cheesy image of Vypers with Star Engines dancing in my head. Non-skimmers attempting to ram a skimmer, give target skimmer a 3+ save to avoid.

There was much discussion in my LGS about Kamikaze Vypers being a common sight in this edition.

Sigh. There's a reason your store is much maligned locally, CD.

If you go fast in the movement phase (24") and hit a tank with a non-tank...you're taking a S9 hit with a +1 to the damage table IF they don't roll a 1 on the armor result, they'll pen you...and you're dead. Most tanks will take the S8 hit (you aren't a tank so no +1) and laugh at you. Vehicles as a rule don't die to Vyper shock, but Vypers do die when they try it.

Star Engines are triggered in the shooting phase, and you cannot combine effects from the movement and shooting phases.

So at best, IF you don't blow yourself up...you can trigger your Star Engines and 'ram' a vehicle 12" away DIRECTLY in front of the direction you rammed the previous vehicle in.

For a most impressive S4 hit. S5 against a tank. Might kill you, thanks to the combination of vehicle squadron rules/immobilization rules/and open-topped rules. Unlikely to kill anything else though.

Now a squadron of Vypers kitted out with scatter lasers and shuricannons and stones/field...oooh boy it's REAL annoying in 5th...when there are 3 of 3 running around.

If you really wanna talk Kamikaze, Trukks knocking over Dreadnoughts is really quite funny. You usually die, but when you don't...yeah that's good times. lol