Pre Release copy of 5th edition Rulebook hit our local store today

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**Aduro**

Hmmmm... I don't think Star Engines are used in the shooting phase. "May move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark of disembark that turn".

I see where you are coming from in that "in lieu of shooting" could be interpreted as doing it instead of shooting during that phase, but the comment about embarking lends me to believe it's used in the movement phase, or else you wouldn't have to mention it since you can't do that during the shooting phase anyways. If it was truely used in the shooting phase, I think it would have specifically told you as much.

"If you did not embark or disembark troops this turn, you may move an additional 12" in the shooting phase in lieu of shooting that turn".

**loomisc**

The range thing is right, if the orc was out of range he would not shoot, but he only needs to be in range of the closest model. That is what I was saying in my post. All the shooters must be in range to the closest, but due to the way casualties and wounds are assigned, you can kill the whole unit if you do enough wounds...not just the ones in range and LOS to the unit.

I will get another look at the book and confirm the mission rules, but I think it is correct. Anyone else feel free to chime in if you have it available.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Now a squadron of Vypers kitted out with scatter lasers and shuricannons and stones/field...oooh boy it's REAL annoying in 5th...when there are 3 of 3 running around.

You're fething with me. 115 pts. per Vyper? 1035 pts. for 9? I'd rather face 9 annoying AV10 vehicles than what could have been an actual army, thanks.

You say Vypers are great in 5th. I can buy that, but at 115 pts. each? H-field is not so great when the vehicle's so easily penned, surely.

**Stelek**

I'll post in the army forum how it works, TC.

List here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/212552.page

Tactics included at the top.

**Centurian99**

Stelek wrote:
If you go fast in the movement phase (24") and hit a tank with a non-tank...you're taking a S9 hit with a +1 to the damage table IF they don't roll a 1 on the armor result, they'll pen you...and you're dead. Most tanks will take the S8 hit (you aren't a tank so no +1) and laugh at you. Vehicles as a rule don't die to Vyper shock, but Vypers do die when they try it.

What vehicle can move 24"?

**tegeus-Cromis**

Will have a look at that list later.

For the record, Star Engines does indeed work during the shooting phase and not the movement phase. This doesn't follow from the codex RAW (IMO), but the recent FAQ leaves no doubt about it.

**JohnHwangDD**

Centurian99 wrote:What vehicle can move 24"?

Any Fast Skimmer, of course.

**Stelek**

Centurian99 wrote:
Stelek wrote:
If you go fast in the movement phase (24") and hit a tank with a non-tank...you're taking a S9 hit with a +1 to the damage table IF they don't roll a 1 on the armor result, they'll pen you...and you're dead. Most tanks will take the S8 hit (you aren't a tank so no +1) and laugh at you. Vehicles as a rule don't die to Vyper shock, but Vypers do die when they try it.

What vehicle can move 24"?

Fast skimmers.

Take a look at the rulebook again...at least, that's how it reads to me...

**Greebynog**

Any word on charging bonus for slow and purposeful?

**JohnHwangDD**

GrimTeef wrote:That is the stupidest reason I've heard. "Fall into enemy hands?"

To be fair, it's not at all uncommon for troops to scuttle otherwise viable tanks, ships, etc. to prevent capture of sensitive equipment and technology. Indeed, it's SOP most forces, so adding this to 40k Squadrons isn't unrealistic at all.

RussWakelin wrote:I'm not sure why area terrain was considered a problem that had to be removed.

Area Terrain wasn't removed.

**Stelek**

Area terrain was removed? Did you get a different copy of the rules than I did? Granted mine is a month old but still...

Slow and purposeful get charging bonuses now, and in 5th too. It's just being relentless that you need to worry about really...which says nothing about removing attacks or denying them.

**Centurian99**

Stelek wrote:
Centurian99 wrote:
Stelek wrote:
If you go fast in the movement phase (24") and hit a tank with a non-tank...you're taking a S9 hit with a +1 to the damage table IF they don't roll a 1 on the armor result, they'll pen you...and you're dead. Most tanks will take the S8 hit (you aren't a tank so no +1) and laugh at you. Vehicles as a rule don't die to Vyper shock, but Vypers do die when they try it.

What vehicle can move 24"?

Fast skimmers.

Take a look at the rulebook again...at least, that's how it reads to me...

Ah, I see. But as I read the ramming rules, it seems like it would be effectively impossible to get that S8, since you would have to be exactly 24" away...

**Stelek**

Correct, it is impossible (effectively).

But everyone likes to bust my balls when I make realistic if technically incorrect statements...so...

**Greebynog**

I was refering to the +1 attack which models with slow and purposeful don't get currently, sorry if that was unclear (pg 75 BGB). In Ghazkhull's rules in the new codex, they seem to suggest that S+P models get the +1 attack in 5th. If so, mega-armour got a boost for sure.

**spaceman spiff**

Stelek wrote:If you go fast in the movement phase (24") and hit a tank with a non-tank...you're taking a S9 hit with a +1 to the damage table IF they don't roll a 1 on the armor result, they'll pen you...and you're dead. Most tanks will take the S8 hit (you aren't a tank so no +1) and laugh at you. Vehicles as a rule don't die to Vyper shock, but Vypers do die when they try it.

Star Engines are triggered in the shooting phase, and you cannot combine effects from the movement and shooting phases.

So at best, IF you don't blow yourself up...you can trigger your Star Engines and 'ram' a vehicle 12" away DIRECTLY in front of the direction you rammed the previous vehicle in.

For a most impressive S4 hit. S5 against a tank. Might kill you, thanks to the combination of vehicle squadron rules/immobilization rules/and open-topped rules. Unlikely to kill anything else though.

Now a squadron of Vypers kitted out with scatter lasers and shuricannons and stones/field...oooh boy it's REAL annoying in 5th...when there are 3 of 3 running around.

If you really wanna talk Kamikaze, Trukks knocking over Dreadnoughts is really quite funny. You usually die, but when you don't...yeah that's good times. lol

At first glance I thought you could as is suggested and declare a ramming attack with Vypers, Speeders and the like but Ramming and Tank Shock appear on a page that is listed with the header "Tanks" which implies that it these rules only apply vehicles categorized as a "Tank". In fact if you declare a "ramming attack" you MUST go the maximum distance that vehicle can travel and if you hit a non vehicle unit on the way towards the vehicle then that enemy unit is "Tank Shocked". Again this implies that you must be classed as "Tank".

Also, if you roll a 6 and explode the rammed vehicle you keep on going up to whatever your maximum distance is. So if you hit another vehicle then you "Ram" it also. The question that came to mind is what happens if you keep on going and hit the table edge do you stop or run off the board?

**Stelek**

Greebynog wrote:I was refering to the +1 attack which models with slow and purposeful don't get currently, sorry if that was unclear (pg 75 BGB). In Ghazkhull's rules in the new codex, they seem to suggest that S+P models get the +1 attack in 5th. If so, mega-armour got a boost for sure.

As far as I know, you get it.

**Greebynog**

Ace. Mega armour is now an option for warbosses vs the ubiquitous biker boss.

**Stelek**

spaceman spiff wrote:At first glance I thought you could as is suggested and declare a ramming attack with Vypers, Speeders and the like but Ramming and Tank Shock appear on a page that is listed with the header "Tanks" which implies that it these rules only apply vehicles categorized as a "Tank". In fact if you declare a "ramming attack" you MUST go the maximum distance that vehicle can travel and if you hit a non vehicle unit on the way towards the vehicle then that enemy unit is "Tank Shocked". Again this implies that you must be classed as "Tank".

Also, if you roll a 6 and explode the rammed vehicle you keep on going up to whatever your maximum distance is. So if you hit another vehicle then you "Ram" it also. The question that came to mind is what happens if you keep on going and hit the table edge do you stop or run off the board?

First, you can never voluntarily run off the table edge.

Skimmers can choose NOT to tank shock units by flying over them.

So if you cannot tank shock, you can still ram (not tank shock) but you'd have to run over units you cannot ram (infantry, MC, dreads).

Note the Ork Trukk upgrade doesn't make you a tank but it does allow you to tank shock. Same with the DE Raider upgrade.

If you tank shock a tank in such a unit, they will always end up +1S over your hit. Add in armor differences and oooh boy those are auto pens coming your way.

Which against open-topped vehicles means almost certain death.

**cuda1179**

Remember how everyone is complaining that Marnus Calgar is the only one that can have two power fists? What about every Terminator Sergent in the Marines codex? They all ready have one, so they can get another one from the armory. Or what about getting a thunderhammer/powerfist combo?

**Tacobake**

cuda1179 wrote:Remember how everyone is complaining that Marnus Calgar is the only one that can have two power fists? What about every Terminator Sergent in the Marines codex? They all ready have one, so they can get another one from the armory. Or what about getting a thunderhammer/powerfist combo?

true, but they will likely lose that option. Look at BA.

**Stelek**

Or look at BT...

**Tacobake**

Alpharius wrote:
Tacobake wrote:Thunderhammer + Storm Shield is better now. Or even Power Fist + Storm Shield.

Better for who?

Maybe 'better' isn't the right word. But a more viable choice. So say you want to give your commander a wicked looking Thunderhammer you may as well give him a wicked looking Storm Shield, too. Powerfist/ Storm bolter or Megaarmour are other choices that require less thinky. Not that that is necessarily a good thing.

**neofright**

Stelek wrote:Or look at BT...

Sergeants? What are they? ;-)

**ShumaGorath**

I think instead of looking for unusual methods of getting the extra power fist attack back we should come to the realization that that is exactly what they were preventing. It's an intentional nerf to lesson the power of powerfist equivalents.

**cuda1179**

I found another way to get two powerfists. Two power claws actually. A Big Mek with Mega armor can get two Power claws. This example will be around for a while.

**Greebynog**

True enough, an attack squig is ten points cheaper though for the same effect.

**Deadshane1**

Isnt the wording on the Attack squig such that he acts as another cc weapon? If thats the case, it wont work to give powerfists another attack.

If the wording is simply a flat-out addt'l attack, then it isnt really the same effect. Not when you could grab up two claws AND an attack squig.

....I'm still amazed that people are actually considering two fists/claws however....such a waste of points.

**Stelek**

It's just +1 attack.

You are correct, two fists is a waste of points.

Especially on a Big Mek, who cunningly enough is T4 and thus will get squished by power fists a very high proportion of the time.

Get a warboss, who takes powerfist hits like a champ and shows you his...

**Deadshane1**

Stelek wrote:
You are correct, two fists is a waste of points.

Thank you for the endorsement, now I feel better!

**Greebynog**

Give a warboss a cybork body, and on average, using dodgy mathshammer, it's going to take 4 powerfist wounds to knock him down. Badman.