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I thought that the whole point for the WGBL was just a cheaper HQ choice because were mandated to have more than your usual amount of HQ's. Seems to me that if they take that away then they would also take away the HQ rule for 750 pts. in your army. WGBL's do make that more manageable.

I think the HQ requirement is gone and they'll have a normal FOC. It might be in the fluff that they tend to operate in warbands, and be somewhat HQ heavy, but I think the requirement is gone.

I also think that the SW Ven Dread will be the SM Ven Dread and only be an Elite option. But, that Bjorn the Fell-Handed returns as an HQ choice, probably lets you reroll go first or sieze initiative, and his lightning claw does something cool (maybe re-roll to wounds or armor pens - which even when you're S10, 1's do happen).

I figure WGBL will be the SW equivalent of Veteran Sergeants (Do SM still get those? Not played against them in 5th yet)

well as a rather new SW player having looked at this so called changes, i can't help but lost heart, another nail slammed into the coffin of my gaming days, anyways, as for the changes, first lets cover True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point in the Space Wolves army, and i was happy to pay a point each model to have them tug out a boltgun over their bolt pistol, they where scary as a back up unit for the BC, i mean some of the other stuff just sounds annoy, but then again Vanilla Marines got forces with frags and Krak grenades (i think the only reason this happened was because GW got annoyed at the fact they had spent the time and effort to make rules for this grenades and no one threw them on their tac squads) the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right, which made sense in my mind, have the Leman Russ cut up some orks then have the BC rush in to clean up the left overs, but with the new rules, they should be adding new variants not taking the only one we have away, something with more range, so even if it doesn't move(which it has to do to do any real damage, who every heard of Heavy Bolters being a main weapon, anyways) something with more punch, i would like to see other tanks lost and more Leman Russ brought out, instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role, in my mind it makes sense, after all the tank is a name sake of their primarch so why wouldn't they use more than one kind...well thats my thoughts, try and dig through the annoyed hate at GW and take the notes for what they are....lol sorry all

Garuss Acine wrote:True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point

the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right,

instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role,

True Grit might stay - it's not a big deal. Although Bolter, BP&CCW accomplishes the same thing *and* you get +1A on the charge...

Perhaps you ought to have been fielding more thematic Long Fangs instead of Imperial Guard Leman Russ tanks?

Again, you're a Marine army, so you should use Marine stuff.

Removed my post.

BYE

Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

Very well. I have removed my post.

But let me just finish with the fact that I'd hate to think that I'm the only person seeing what DD does in these discussions. He is attempting to vilify and belittle Garuss Acine for not playing Space Wolves "properly" in an inane attempt to be 'right' and be on a morale highground.

But I'll simply leave it at that. I'll not bringin it up again in this thread.

BYE

Garuss Acine wrote:well as a rather new SW player having looked at this so called changes, i can't help but lost heart, another nail slammed into the coffin of my gaming days, anyways, as for the changes, first lets cover True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point in the Space Wolves army, and i was happy to pay a point each model to have them tug out a boltgun over their bolt pistol, they where scary as a back up unit for the BC, i mean some of the other stuff just sounds annoy, but then again Vanilla Marines got forces with frags and Krak grenades (i think the only reason this happened was because GW got annoyed at the fact they had spent the time and effort to make rules for this grenades and no one threw them on their tac squads) the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right, which made sense in my mind, have the Leman Russ cut up some orks then have the BC rush in to clean up the left overs, but with the new rules, they should be adding new variants not taking the only one we have away, something with more range, so even if it doesn't move(which it has to do to do any real damage, who every heard of Heavy Bolters being a main weapon, anyways) something with more punch, i would like to see other tanks lost and more Leman Russ brought out, instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role, in my mind it makes sense, after all the tank is a name sake of their primarch so why wouldn't they use more than one kind...well thats my thoughts, try and dig through the annoyed hate at GW and take the notes for what they are....lol sorry all

Periods. More than little dots.

Reecius wrote:
Wishful Thinking

Sums it up. It's a wishlist--what the poster would like to see..

Some of it will be true simply because it's a natural development of what's already there, most of it won't be.

augustus5 wrote:I was also underwhelmed by these rumors. It sounds very much like a dumbed down version of the existing SW codex. I was hoping to see something a little more radical. Something to motivate me to build another SW army.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well prepare to be disappointed. Conventional wisdom says that Space Wolves are about to be hit with the Blandhammer, so say goodbye to flexible unit options, any sort of wargear list beyond identicle weapons (everything will come as standard and be generic), mandatory special characters and a whole host of other items set to make Space Wolves the new Dark Angels.

It's true. SW players are scared to death of this and they should be. Dumbing down is what GW does anymore. Just look at Chaos and Tyranids. Better models, far less flexibility/uniqueness/coolness. Now all we have is "Nids for Kids!" and "Cha-O's breakfast cereal!" Hurr-Dee-Durr!

Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

I think JohnHwangDD should change his name to J.H.D.D.

How is a LEMAN RUSS tank not thematic in a Space Wolves army? The tank was named for their primarch for christ's sake. It doesn't get more thematic than that. If you don't like SW having that option, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. Whether they get them in the new codex remains to be seen.

Ironhide wrote:How is a LEMAN RUSS tank not thematic in a Space Wolves army? The tank was named for their primarch for christ's sake. It doesn't get more thematic than that. If you don't like SW having that option, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. Whether they get them in the new codex remains to be seen.

Exactly.

@Ironhide: Because it's an IMPERIAL GUARD tank?

Yeah.

@JHDD:

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

Just playing devil's advocate...

By that reasoning, JHDD, then Inquisitors shouldn't have any vehicles, since Chimeras are IG and LRs and Rhinos are SM. And only BTs should get LRC (since they invented them) and only SWs should get Predator Annihilators (twin-lascannon in the turret) since they invented them.

Whether you think SWs should get a Leman Russ, or any variant, doesn't matter. At present, they can. In the new codex, unless you have inside info, you're guessing as much as anyone who says, 'yes, they'll have them.'

I still say it's probably 50/50 that SWs keep access to a Leman Russ tank (or variant).

"Oh no, a Space Marine Army losing a unit choice?! WHAT WILL WE DO?" was going to be my kneejerk response, but that's a different matter. I rethought this post after deliberation, and I guess it would be ridiculously stupid not to have a Leman Russ/Variant in a Space Wolves army list.

I cannot think of anything to Parallel this, but it just seems wrong not to allow the Space Wolf players, in regards to the sheer fluff mountain, and the rest.

As chaplaingrabthar has said, in fact it would be stupid to take the Exterminator out of the SW list, as that would just be the obliteration of all Leman Russ Exterminators... If you catch my drift. It would be like taking the Land Raider Crusader out of a Black Templars list -- it used to be Templar only (for a reason) before the rest of the SM jumped on the wagon. It would be an insult to the fluff and a stupid technicality.

Avast!

sA

Originally Leman Russ was an IG commander then later his fluff got retconned.

G

Wow. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks a Leman Russ tank in a Space Wolf army is fluffy, and as someone stated:

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

@John: Seems to me that you are in the minority in thinking SW shouldn't have a Leman Russ Exterminator.

Keep in mind, John was arguing in another thread that Space Wolves can't field Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Ironclad Dreadnaught, or Land Speeder Storm because the fifth edition FAQ doesn't define 'variant'. Actually, I think he relented on the LRC because in the write-up in the SM codex it does state that it is a variant of the LR.

Archonate wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

I think JohnHwangDD should change his name to J.H.D.D.

You know, that's not a bad idea at all!

Seconded!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Ironhide: Because it's an IMPERIAL GUARD tank?

Terrible line of logic (or lack thereof) as usual DD.

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator only appears in one Codex, and it ain't the Guard Codex. And has others have said, there are a lot of crossover units between Codices (Inquisitorial Chimers & Land Raiders for example). Now I personally don't believe that Space Wolves will keep the Exterminator come the new Codex (although, if it's in plastic as part of a re-cut kit, you never know), but to claim that it's against theme and unfluffy now is just plain ignorant. It's a Space Wolf unit right now because it's the only army that has one in their Codex. That simple.

BYE

Last nail in the coffin boys!

G

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

OK, fair enough, as long as you're content for the Space Wolves to always be stuck with their 3rd Edition Codex from now until the heat death of the universe...
____

dietrich wrote:By that reasoning, JHDD, then Inquisitors shouldn't have any vehicles, since Chimeras are IG and LRs and Rhinos are SM. And only BTs should get LRC (since they invented them) and only SWs should get Predator Annihilators (twin-lascannon in the turret) since they invented them.

Whether you think SWs should get a Leman Russ, or any variant, doesn't matter. At present, they can. In the new codex, unless you have inside info, you're guessing as much as anyone who says, 'yes, they'll have them.'

I still say it's probably 50/50 that SWs keep access to a Leman Russ tank (or variant).

Inquisitors are "special" in the 40k universe - they can take whatever they see.

My basic viewpoint is that it is preferable to limit armies to specific models and options whereever possible, particularly SM armies, to help create artificial differences that enhance distinctiveness between armies. So I don't think that any SM army should have access to any IG-based tanks. I think that it would be a fantastic thing to reduce access to Land Raider / Predator variants and to make things more limited in the Codices, with the obvious understanding that all of this stuff is broadly available via Apocalypse Allies sharing. Narrower lists are better-focused, tighter-themed, and easier to balance.

I thought it was brilliant to remove the IG Basilisk from the CSM Codex, along with Looted IG & SM Tanks from the Ork Codex, forcing the armies to play a more particularly-themed way. The CSM Codex is now much better-themed than it was before, precisely because it covers a more tightly-constrained design space. Same with Orks.

Personally, I'm NOT happy to see the broad expansion of SM Land Raiders and models in the current Codex. I see it as GW just whoring things around.
____

smiling Assassin wrote:"Oh no, a Space Marine Army losing a unit choice?! WHAT WILL WE DO?"

it would be stupid to take the Exterminator out of the SW list,

IMO, your kneejerk reaction is best.

No, it was stupid to take it (along with the Griffon) out of the IG list. I'm thankful to see it return to the IG in the coming Codex, along with the Exterminator and Vanquisher.
____

Ironhide wrote:Wow. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks a Leman Russ tank in a Space Wolf army is fluffy, and as someone stated:

@John: Seems to me that you are in the minority in thinking SW shouldn't have a Leman Russ Exterminator.

No, really? In a SW thread? Imagine that?

Now how about we flip the question to the IG guys asking whether their Tanks should be shared with SM, CSM, and Orks? Any takers on what the majority opinion is going to be?

Or conversely, would you be willing to give Blood Claws to IG as a Troops choice??? After all, Fluff-wise they're just a tiny step up from being Guardsmen...
____

dietrich wrote:Keep in mind, John was arguing in another thread that Space Wolves can't field Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Ironclad Dreadnaught, or Land Speeder Storm because the fifth edition FAQ doesn't define 'variant'.

I *still* don't believe that any of those should be allowed based on the current Codex entries and wordings.

It is a choice of combat doctrine really. The Leman Russ is a lumbering behemoth but the Space Wolves want to both honour their Primarch and enjoy employing obscene amounts of twin-linked fire power. They did invent the Predator Annihilator.

The Griffon and Leman Russ Exterminator are still part of the Armoured Company IG list -- therefore technically still there.

Have a nice evening.

sA

JHDD loves to tell people they are having BADWRONGFUN. In fact, I think he needs his title to be "Inquisitor Badwrongfun."

Deitrich has it right that saying the Imperium can not make equipment available to different forces is just silly. The LRBT is one of the features of the space wolves, just as much as blood claws and other various puppy toys. They also make more sense from a fluff perspective than Longfangs withheavy weapons, seeing as how an assault force would want a mobile heavy weapons platform to support assaults, not some old guys sitting way in the back being isolated because everyone else is up at the front fighting.

So, Marines only using "Marine Stuff" is silly. If SW were a Codex Chapter, it might hold some weight, but they obviously are not.
Leman Russes not "thematic" to Space Wolves? Obviously false as well.

@Wehrkind: I think you misunderstand me. I'm not making any personal judgement on people or their armies, but I am making a judgement on GW's design decisions.

While, yes the Imperium can make things available anywhere, the more things share, the homogenized the army lists are. Otherwise, we might as well have one Codex to rule them all, and that would be uninteresting.

As far as SW being non-Codex, the question is how far that should go. I think the line should be at the BC/GH/SW/WG doctrinal variances as opposed to adding Chaos Marks or IG Tanks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:While, yes the Imperium can make things available anywhere, the more things share, the homogenized the army lists are. Otherwise, we might as well have one Codex to rule them all, and that would be uninteresting.

I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters! One codex to rule them all!

Also, don't you think your viewpoint about non-homogenized Imperial Armies is a little silly considering just about every SM chapter unique stuff eventually ended up available for all chapters? That and the cross-pollination afforded through the inquisition codicies makes this even more silly. Add in the fact that most of the chaos marines are exactly the same as their loyalist counterparts, and you have a very bland, imperial playing field all ready.

So what you're really advocating is one space marine codex, one chaos codex, and one IG codex?