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That's funny. A minute ago he was criticising people for being unthematic with their lists, now he's blaming GW's design choices.

That's what I like to call "back-pedalling".

BYE

I don't think that anyone is going to claim that the SW function just like a variant IG because they can take the LR. They are much more likely to be seen as Chaos marines sans spikes and daemons without the tanks.

It makes much more sense to mix and match from available units, and extant tech fluff wise, than to give the wolves something created from whole cloth. This does not mean that every Space Marine army should be different by virtue of having some random IG tank, but ONE variant chapter having ONE IG tank is hardly homogenized.

IG, SM, WH, DH and spiky SMs are already homogenized. They all have the same weapons. A couple tanks don't make much of a diff.

Alpharius wrote:All in the name of Balance, as defined by GW.

I neer asked them to do anything for me! It was all their own idea.

I was chatting about this a couple weeks ago and had the thought that losing a lot of the variants, at least temporarily, is probably a good step towards making the game tournament-friendly. GW still attempts (badly) to balance a ton of army books.

If only they'd get serious about this and realize it's the core rules that seem to cause a lot of the confusion.

whitedragon wrote:I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters!

Also, don't you think your viewpoint about non-homogenized Imperial Armies is a little silly considering just about every SM chapter unique stuff eventually ended up available for all chapters?

So what you're really advocating is one space marine codex, one chaos codex, and one IG codex?

How does the SM Codex apply to Blood Angels or Black Templars? How does it apply to Marked / Cult Chaos units? Did I miss something?

What I want isn't necessarily what GW provides. But if we're all wishlisting, then I believe that I'm allowed to state what I want, even if I know that GW won't give it to us.

No, what I'm advocating is C: SM, C: BA, C: DA, C: SW, and C: BT, along with C: CSM, C: Necrons, C: SoB, C: IG, and C:=I= each to have the maximum number of exclusive and unique units possible. With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

Not to mention the arbitrary part: Blues and Yellows get the Redeemer, Reds and Greens get the Crusader. That's that and no other way is possible.

BrookM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

Not to mention the arbitrary part: Blues and Yellows get the Redeemer, Reds and Greens get the Crusader. That's that and no other way is possible.

Then we need another LR variant for the black marines and the grey marines and ......

If you can have fluffy and distinct fantasy armies even though everyone has block units of spear and shield carriers, I see no problem with one flavor of space marines using a single tank from an alternate list. Especially since it is only a small improvement over an uncontroversial tank they already get.

I'm far more worried that my 13th company will disappear back into the warp to hang out with squats and LaTD.

So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

3rd Edition.

If it was from 2nd Edition they'd be like Squats - they wouldn't exist.

B

Mmmm... I'd say more like 2nd Edition. I know it showed up after the release of 3rd edition, but they still hadn't completely cleansed the 2nd edition toxins from their veins and I think the Codex was written with a somewhat 2nd edition mentality...

whitedragon wrote:I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters! One codex to rule them all!

This is every non-SM player's dream... Think how much cooler all the other armies might be if GW didn't away 90% of their time and resources on SMs...

You mean like Orks, Daemons, and the upcoming Guard?

Precisely like them. That is quality that we should have had a long time ago. It feels like GW wakes up every few years and says "Oh yeah! Almost forgot we have armies that aren't SMs!"

But as this is a thread about Space Marines, I'll cease my ranting.

SWs... Whoopee!

P.S. Kinda annoying that GW is so tight lipped about what it's doing beyond the release of IG...

They're tight lipped about the release of IG as well. They're impossible.

BYE

The braggarts.

I mean, we have NO clue about the Guard now, do we?

sA

See I can't tell whether you're being a smart ass, of serious.

BYE

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

As I've said before, I expect them to get 'codexized'. Yes, I know they shouldn't be since they're decidedly non-Codex. But, if Chaos and Orks fit some 'codex' number system, SWs will too. My guess is that at every 5 full models, someone can upgrade their gear.

hehe ... this duscussion is pretty interesting.
i'm playing sw now since about 15 years or something ...
andi'm really looking forward to the new codex, but don't care much about what i'll might find inside.
i mean isn't the great thing about this hobby to give everything your own personal note? if you don't like black templars, paint them blue and call them blue templars.
.
no matter what the codex will say, my wolves will stay how they are and continue developing in exactly that direction I judge as fitting. i would never take a specific unit into my army, just because it could give me an advantage in a game. i only use units that i really like and even further create my own rules for those not yet existing. the hobby has different aspects. for converters, painters, builders and storyteller, the options in the army list will never have the same weight and importance as for the players.

ill be happy as long as they bring back Bjorn the fell handed and Njal Stormcaller. Anyone remember one of the old 2nd edition characters called Ranulf i think he lifted a landraider on his own or something i used to like him too.
wolves seriously need new character models to except Logan. Ragnar has gotta be the oldest character model going still in use along with Ulrick.

The four main characters Ragnar, Ulric, Njal and Bjorn are the four oldest named char models. They need some love.

dietrich wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

As I've said before, I expect them to get 'codexized'. Yes, I know they shouldn't be since they're decidedly non-Codex. But, if Chaos and Orks fit some 'codex' number system, SWs will too. My guess is that at every 5 full models, someone can upgrade their gear.

That sounds very, very reasonable actually... Tell me you're on the development team in some way. But my question is, who's going to fall by the wayside as they make up for letting go of other armies for a while?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But my question is, who's going to fall by the wayside as they make up for letting go of other armies for a while?

Dark Eldar

But seriously, what do you mean by this. Clarify if you please.

Well that's where I was going actually... Are they going to continue showing DE no love whatsoever (despite all the rumours about new stuff)? I guess I'm worried about my bugs too as there are so many things in the current codex that just don't work or are disproportionate now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:See I can't tell whether you're being a smart ass, of serious.

BYE

If you mean "tight lipped" by officially, then you're pretty right.

We know much of it already, however.

sA

So what are the rules in the new Codex then? Points values? Options? Do we know exactly what units are in the Codex? Is Platoon Drill real? What is the order system?

Hell we don't even know what's in the Guard 'First Wave'. And this, as I said before, is after an 'Open' Day.

BYE

I mean, (from my point of view, i.e. Models) then we know, and we have seen, at least more than I would qualify GW to be "tight lipped". Don't we usually not find out about Points, Options, and the rest until it's actually released?

However, you are (damnably) right. We don't know these things, I was saying it from the unenlightened modeller's point of view.

Technicalities...

sA

This is a sharp contrast with the months leading up to the Marine codex last year.

Shows how much I follow things.

sA

Yeah, most of us had a copy of the Marine Codex (in one form or another) by now, be it a PDF of photographs, or just the Codex itself sans colour/fluff sections.

BYE