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@Sidstyler: Cork bark is hard to get because the tree ONLY grows in certain parts of the world (cork oak).

I know that, I'm just saying...

GW only positives are for me,

1/ High street presence. No other miniatures company has a chain of stores. The stores provide a not only a place to easily get hold of your miniatures, but a place to meet fellow gamers, pick up painting and modeling advice but also to see new products "in the flesh" before deciding to buy them or not.

2/ Product support. As far as I am aware GW still have a number you can ring to check rules and get advice. Also whilst the quality of their product can be hit and miss from time to time there customer service and problem resolution is excelant

3/ New gamer support. I know that the fact the company focuses on the new gamer is a bugbear with a lot of us vets, but without new blood coming in thhen the hobby would die. Most gamers first contact with the TTMG market is via GW, without them serving as an entry point many of the smaller manufacturers would cease to exist.

4/ Background. GW invests a massive amount of time and resources in creating interesting background material, from the history of the special charachters through to the stunning artwork which is present in almost all of their products. I feel that a lot of the time this is taken for granted.

5/ All under one roof. GW stores provide a one stop shop for picking up pretty much everything you need to play, I appreciate that this can be achieved on the internet, but in terms of someone new wandering into a store and wanting to get started, its all there. Miniatures, rules, paints, glue scenery and even the board itself.

GW is by no means perfect but then again neither are many brand leaders such as Tesco etal. However they are a vital part of the TTMG industry and it would be a blow to all manufacturers and retailers if they were not about.

squilverine wrote:GW only positives are for me,

1/ High street presence. No other miniatures company has a chain of stores. The stores provide a not only a place to easily get hold of your miniatures, but a place to meet fellow gamers, pick up painting and modeling advice but also to see new products "in the flesh" before deciding to buy them or not.

2/ Product support. As far as I am aware GW still have a number you can ring to check rules and get advice. Also whilst the quality of their product can be hit and miss from time to time there customer service and problem resolution is excelant

3/ New gamer support. I know that the fact the company focuses on the new gamer is a bugbear with a lot of us vets, but without new blood coming in thhen the hobby would die. Most gamers first contact with the TTMG market is via GW, without them serving as an entry point many of the smaller manufacturers would cease to exist.

4/ Background. GW invests a massive amount of time and resources in creating interesting background material, from the history of the special charachters through to the stunning artwork which is present in almost all of their products. I feel that a lot of the time this is taken for granted.

5/ All under one roof. GW stores provide a one stop shop for picking up pretty much everything you need to play, I appreciate that this can be achieved on the internet, but in terms of someone new wandering into a store and wanting to get started, its all there. Miniatures, rules, paints, glue scenery and even the board itself.

GW is by no means perfect but then again neither are many brand leaders such as Tesco etal. However they are a vital part of the TTMG industry and it would be a blow to all manufacturers and retailers if they were not about.

1/ Can't disagree there

2/ Soon to disappear plus not the best place to get rules advice as I, and others, have found out...

3/ New 'customer' support. See what happens if you go into one of their shops and say you are interested in starting to play their games but cant afford to actually buy any of it...

4/ The fluff is excellent but can be annoying when bits are changed to suit the latest codex/army book.

5/ yes you can get everything you need but a lot of the periphary stuff is available else where in the high street for a lower price.

It would be interesting to see the percentage of new people who are introduced into TTMG through GW over one year who continue and are still doing it five years later (normally after they have started, or want to start, dating...)

Mick

For the first time in a long time I had a good look round the local GW the other day. I was quite surprised by how cultish the whole place feels. The total dedication to a single product (the stiring music, the wall banners and so on) is quite overwhelming and a bit disturbing. GW stores are not great places for the uninitiated.

First of all, it's a fallacy that Dakka is exclusively a 40k forum. Indeed, the news forum is always full of new product announcements from companies like MaxMini, Privateer, WGF and what have you. There's even a dedicated Warmachine subforum, for crying out loud! As for the OP's dichotomy, I think simplifications like that are odious and result in quite a bit of bickering, of the sort we've an ample supply in this thread.

GW's failings, such as they are, have stopped me from buying their product for the time being, but beyond that, I'm not sure if I'd treat them, on the whole, with half the vitriol several of my fellow posters do. The perfect wargaming company doesn't exist. The closest I've gotten in terms of minis companies is Heresy, if only for the fact they send me free candy when I order their stuff.

George Spiggott wrote:For the first time in a long time I had a good look round the local GW the other day. I was quite surprised by how cultish the whole place feels. The total dedication to a single product (the stiring music, the wall banners and so on) is quite overwhelming and a bit disturbing. GW stores are not great places for the uninitiated.

I wouldn't describe them as being great places to go. I usually feel a bit more uncomfortable spending time in them as I get older. I usually make it a point to visit new one if I'm on holiday in an area, I've been to about a third on the ones in the UK now I think. First you always get pounced at the door with someone trying to sell you the latest thing but they always ignore my wife if she is with me, even though she is also interested in miniatures. "So, what does your boyfriend like to model, then?" was one greeting upon entering a store once on her own, and later patronised "have you ever used a modelling knife before, it's very sharp".

I'm only in my 20s and feel like I've wandered into a playgroup at times. All I want to do it look at the stuff on the rails for sale and have a gander at their store display cabinet. It's a bit off putting what with the stale smell of body odour and over excited shouts of "WAAARGH" and "BOOOOM!!" which both reach eye-watering proportions in the school holidays. Sometimes once they know you're a long term gamer/collector the conversation steers away from "buy buy buy" to one of genuine hobby talk, other times they just lose interest. Usually it depends on how busy the store is. Their customer service in answering sales queries, finding stock not on the shelves and resolving disputes is all top notch, but that's not contributing towards the "atmosphere" of the shops we are discussion so don't mistake the point I'm making. I think the most offputting part is the frequent embarassing adolescence of the shops. I even felt this when I was a teenager, albeit a quiet retreating one, now as an adult I find it utterly cringeworthy. So much so that I don't even consider going into their crowded shops during school holidays.

I remember the GW forums. They were TERRIBLE. They were, I am not kidding here, akin to the Warcraft official forums. Full of people calling others nerds, losers, scrubs, etc. Those forums were the reason that I ended up finding Dakka however--so they're not ALL bad.

People who play with small toy soldiers call other people who play with small toy soldiers nerds?

As a company GW have matured into the behemoth it is today and I think the mature approach would be to accept its role in the ever evolving TTMG hobby gamers will never be totally satisfied with products services and pricing that are offered. GW are the victims of their own success they have stake and share holders to answer to, they have to aggressively pursue profit, doing this by promoting their own product, their aspect of the hobby has evolved. They are right as a business to push their own products, they are branded as GW and as a business they are under no obligation, neither should they be of promoting aspects of TTMG other than their own as a business people playing with 'toy soldiers' should be buying their products. Its the same with GW as it is with tescos, VW, Sony, Apple, HP, Heinz beans, Cadburys and my business.

Are their changes that need to be made? quite possibly, whilst my kids like their stores as an older gamer I find I am losing touch, which is what gaming clubs are about i suppose. Soem of the staff and kids at their stores are so indoctrinated that 'counts as' is a really big issue, more intelligent managers and staff are a way round this problem but thsi is a flaw exposed not just at GW but at other gaming groups with other game systems, try converting dreads and sentinels to use in a warmachine tourney and see what I mean.

GW has flaws but with TTMG as a wholes they really are no different to others they are just a bigger target - a sign of success.

GW positives:

1. Raising the quality: if you look at a lot of older figs (though there are some real gems out there from Bob Olley, the Perrys, Ral Partha in general, etc.), especially historical figs, they're pretty 'meh'. Ye Olde bag of Old Glory was more often than not a flash-and-often-mangled sack of lead. Plastics meant soft-plastic 1/72 scale airfix kits or the like. Today, you can go and get high quality, well designed metal and hard plastic miniatures for multiple (popular) eras, produced by a variety of companies, many of whom employ sculptors or designers who once worked at GW.

2. Simplification of Rules: without fantasy and 40k, you wouldn't have had Warhammer Ancients, which changed historical rules for the better for everyone. Playing historicals no longer means giving up 12 hours of your life to fuss over chits, charts and writing algorithms on your ti-85 to work out all of the modifiers. Historical games--from Flames of War to Sharpe Practice to the WAB line to everything in between are now fast and fun. Are there more balance issues than there might have been at one point? Probably. Are many of these rules written better than GW's flagship games? Often. But GW's games helped create an expectation that rules be fun and fast, rather than an AP math exam. And this doesn't even include the pulp, sci-fi, fantasy and other games that have shown up in the last 10 years. It may have all started with Gary Gygax' "Chainmail", and there may have been contemporaries who did the same thing (Warzone and Battletech come to mind), but WHFB and 40k set the bar for what was to come: fast-paced games with a rich storyline and a lot of customization within the game.

3. Paint matters: say what you will about the 'eavy Metal team and their style of painting, but it raised the expectations for everyone. You don't see many people using testors glossy oils to paint their figures anymore, and that's a good thing. I think there's more of an expectation that your army will be painted (and should look at least decent) as well. You can't say that Golden Daemon Awards, White Dwarf Magazines (pre-2004, say) and 'Eavy Metal books didn't help move the hobby forward,, especially pre-internet at least as much as Wargames Illustrated and IPMS.

4. Creativity is a good thing: "You mean I can cut the bow off this elf and give it guns? Brilliant!" Yes, they were always your figs to do what you wanted (again, see Airfix) but with GW, conversion became an obsession. Does anyone just paint the figs as-is anymore, especially the plastics? It seems like everyone's always adding or changing some bits or bobs to their models. And this is true for other games' figures as well.

Was GW the originator of these things? Nope, but they were able to do them more so than their competitors, transforming the hobby. Sure, you'll find plenty of grognards clinging to their Red Box edition of D&D or playing DBM (and even getting some youngsters into it), but there are plenty more with a copy of 2nd ed. 40k or 4th ed. Fantasy in a closet somewhere who's expectations were shaped by those games, and GW in general.

Well, personally, without GW I would own a comic book shop that sold some card games.

With GW, I have a shop with 8 gaming tables that customers can use for any game, and a room of scenery in various scales. I sell lots of historical boardgames, Flames of War, Warmachine, Field of Glory, lots of scenery and scenery supplies, foam cutting tools, Osprey books, historical minitures from half a dozen companies, modeling tools, and many varied products that support 'Gaming', and not necessarily GW.

GW helps pay the rent, and makes the rest of the gaming possible.

And don't forget, GW gives many GW haters something to post about! Face it, without GW, you'd have no hate for GW. Your life would be empty of meaning.)

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I would argue that DBA and Fire & Fury were more influential in historicals than WAB.

I agree with your other points.

mikhaila wrote:


And don't forget, GW gives many GW haters something to post about! Face it, without GW, you'd have no hate for GW. Your life would be empty of meaning.)

Well done- you made me spit my tea out from laughing

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

GW models are incredibly detailed, no denying that.
However, if you had any semblance of experience with military model kits, you wouldn't have made this comment. Military models are KNOWN for their detail and historical accuracy. Research some Tamiya kits. Or airplane kits. Or, even more so, scale warship kits. Then you can take into consideration all the after-market photo-etched brass kits that add levels of detail that GW could only dream of. Kits that can transform the cockpit of your 1:48 IL-2 Sturmovik from a stock kit into an almost perfect scale replica right down to the gauges, seatbelt buckles, and lever handles. Heaven forbid, should you look into the Age of Sail wood kits with all the rigging and what-not.

Even the less detailed 1:72-1:76 kits are pretty highly detailed. Look at some Hasegawa tank and infantry kits. They make kits for all sorts of variations where maybe only the suspension changed a little bit or slightly different materials were used on the real thing (like Zimmerit or side skirts). They even make such detail changes as the Sherman's welded hull vs. the stamped hull.

If you want to compare detail, then you MUST also include scale. Historical model kits are scale models. That means they accurately represent the scales of their kits right down to the inch. Even between kits, like tanks and vehicles in scale with infantry or planes. How does GW rate on that aspect? GW's tanks to their infantry? Laughable, that's where. They have no concept of scale in their model designs. Even infantry to infantry is not in scale with their own fluff.

Before you compare detail between GW and historical kits, make sure you do your research. Try actually building some WWII Tamiya or Dragon 1:35 kits. Get yourself an Age of Sail ship-of-the-line and then tell me that GW is more detailed. Hell, since you won't put your money where your mouth is, just google scale military models. We'll await your retraction of the above-quoted comment.





Just for the record, here's some pics of DETAILED models:

Not even close to GW's level of detail, huh...


IJN Akagi:


Nowhere near as detailed as a Rhino...


This T-34/76 can't touch a Russ.


1:35 resin WWII German infantry




GW's best detail is in their infantry, in my opinion. Their new infantry is high-class, I'll give them that.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

I think there is a slight difference- as most of the examples you gave there Ghidorah are display pieces more than gaming pieces... and I got the feeling it was minatures for games, not just to look pretty, that were being called into question.

Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

Bignutter wrote:I think there is a slight difference- as most of the examples you gave there Ghidorah are display pieces more than gaming pieces...

Yes and no, really. The completed models I posted pics of are display/competition/diorama pieces, yes, but that's not ALL they are for. There are many wargames out there that use these very same kits. I play Battleground WWII using the 1/72 scale rules. We use the Hasegawa, Revell, Italieri, etc. model kits for our wargames. That's all there is to use. This particular ruleset also has conversions for 28mm minis and, when Easy Eights Productions made minis in addition to the rules, they were 'Heroic 28mm' so many of the Tamiya kits worked. So, everything I mentioned above iwould be considered 'gaming kits' as well as 'disply/diorama kits'.

There are no GAME companies that make 1/72 kits strictly for wargaming, ala GW. So, you use what there is. Just as a 13 year old kid might build a model tank because he already built his Corvette kit, so the modeler builds the kit for display or competition, so does the wargamer build the kit for his upcoming Ardennes Offensive game. Does that make sense? I hope so...

Either way you slice it, my point was that those commercially available kits by those companies I mentioned (and many more that I didn't) are every bit as detailed as GW's kits, thus providing contradiction to the person's statement that I quoted. I would argue that the majority of them are more detailed...



Ghidorah

Bignutter wrote:
Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

(Warning: any historical references here is for comparison purposes rather than game equivalencies. YMMV)

Nor a Russ and slap it on a Falcon, so it doesn't mesh quite as well as a comparison. I'm sure that there are a lot of Sherman commanders that would have loved to have 88s! Farseers and battlecannons not so much.

This much stuff would make GW cry. It also tends to make me cry. Individual links suck to assemble.
GW products are targeted at a different audience than 1/35 models. Although I'd *love* to get a field gun and a crew of 9 for $22! I'd also be expecting rules for shooting scaled distances since an 88 would still be able to shoot 38 feet...and my neighbor might be upset if I had to shell their kitchen appliances! Also there's the rivet counting historical accuracy that comes to mind. WYSIWYG gets strange here.

In your defense there are a number of tread heads who do add nearly the same level of detail to their GW armor as they can. *I* don't because I suck.

I think the major problem *I* have with GW is their supported venom about being the only one. Warmachine has its own flaws ('page 5' being the steroidal rant that got misinterpreted) and more than a few other games could use some love...but only GW claims to be "the one true hobby. Its like religion - and the crazy religious folks tend to push people away with the 'one true path' spiel.

Ghidorah wrote:I would argue that the majority of them are more detailed...

I would argue this is an understatement.

metallifan wrote:
This is true. You can literally pour over the history and background of the 40K universe for a year and not manage to read through all of it. It really is just absolutely massive, and can be compared to real historical literature in terms of quality and overall length.

A good rebuttal, with some decent points. However, I'm not sure what point you're making here - what do you mean by "real historical literature"? Personally, I generally find Games Workshop background to be poorly written, relying far too much on stock phrases/wording (people are always "musing", and weapons always "cleave" the air, for example). On the other hand, the meta-concepts and premises are usually interesting, although I feel like they want to have their cake and eat it - they've created a galaxy holding "untold billions" of populated planets, upon which anything can and does happen. Therefore why should we care when a world is wiped out? GW has made very few significant advancements/changes in their backgrounds; as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

(Incidentally, can I just add that it's "pore" over something - a book, photograph, magazine etc - rather than "pour"? I see this all the time on here and it's incredibly annoying.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

Real talk.

Peekay wrote:...as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

Well said. Surely the male and female Guardians have had ample downtime to "take the log to the beaver" and repopulate a bit...



Ghidorah

There are four companies making historicals in 28mm plastic.

Victrix
Wargames Factory
Perry Brothers
Warlord Games

There are several others making them in 1/72 scale.

Hmm, Warmachine is playtested? For what, fairness? LOL.

WM sounds cool but to me there need not be playtesting unless it's to see who can figure out the most broken combo.

That seems to be WM's premise. See who can create the dirtiest combo and run with it. Like MTG but in miniature war gaming form. So, is it safe to assume they playtest to make sure nothing FAIR gets into the rules?

Mini's are tight though. I love the Cryx 'jacks.

Fateweaver wrote:Hmm, Warmachine is playtested? For what, fairness? LOL.

WM sounds cool but to me there need not be playtesting unless it's to see who can figure out the most broken combo.

That seems to be WM's premise. See who can create the dirtiest combo and run with it. Like MTG but in miniature war gaming form. So, is it safe to assume they playtest to make sure nothing FAIR gets into the rules?

Mini's are tight though. I love the Cryx 'jacks.

From my understanding of the mantra of 'play it like you've got a pair', it's designed around the concept that you do look for power builds designed to take down the opponent. It was designed with tourney play in mind.

Ghidorah wrote:

Peekay wrote:...as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

Well said. Surely the male and female Guardians have had ample downtime to "take the log to the beaver" and repopulate a bit...



Ghidorah

No-one knows how many Exodites there are. Could be billions. All the focus is on the Craftworld Eldar.

Well, that's what I was talking about. In all this time since Slannesh was created and most of the Eldar were swallowed, I somehow think they've found a little time for sharing their dirty bits.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

Right, I was just talking about gaming pieces (the plastic infantry manufacturers Killkrazy listed). Of course model vehicles are more detailed and there's about a billion different ones in any model shop. I was into WW2 tank kits before I found Warhammer.

Bignutter wrote:Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

Why would you want to? There's a load of things you can do to modify a Tiger of a Sherman to make it different without resorting to the absurd. And as pointed out you can't really take a Leman Russ Turret and stick it on a Falcon, both from a practical standpoint and a fluff one, so that argument doesn't hold. But within the bounds of reality, there is huge scope for conversion and modification. Certain vehicles have huge room for development, there's a guy that does some shows in the UK who only models 1:72 Shermans. He has a whole table of them , probably 50+ and every one is a different variant. Some are small variants, others are big ones that represent particularly unusual and unique vehicles. Pick up any military modelling magazine and you'll see people making small conversions on vehicles to completely rebuilding them as something else. If you go to a model show there's a fair chance you'll not see two vehicles that are alike, most kits are not built straight from the box unless they are a new release that everyone in rushing to complete. It's usually possible to totally change a vehicle by buying a different crew for it, make a few small modifications and you have something that can be in an entirely different paint scheme to serve in another army. In that sense the kits are modular for someone collecting along the lines of a particular theme. Some vehicles are so widely used around the world that they can be included in almost any amed forces meaning it's possible to build up a diverse collection for any place or time. Also you can go into a model shop and look at their whole range because anything could potentially be of interest. Many people who game with GW models are mainly interested in only their own stuff, unless you're an Ork player looking to loot some IG vehicles, you'll have a passing interest in the bulk of the range available. That's not the case with historical modellers, they may normally collect to various themes, but their overall interests are much wider in scope.

And the argument that GW kits are more detailed than historical kits? Piffle. Scale model kits are sculpted to be miniature replicas of the real thing, admittedly there are some real turds out there but most of them are old kits, the bulk of modern kits have superb and very fine detail. GW "detail" is large and chunky because they make tabletop playing pieces not scale models, the two aren't supposed to be compared in the way they are here because the models serve entirely different purposes. It's a load of nonsense anyway. How can anyone boast about the quality of the "detail" on a fictional kit?

Hi again,
Well a good range of replies so far.
And as its sort of drifted off topic a bit, may I intervene?

GW PLC keep saying the 'GW HOBBY'.
It is GW PLC, NOT ME that wants to make the distinction between the 'GW Hobby' and the wider table top minature game hobby.

I am happy to except many simply use Citadel products bought in a GW store for convienience, they may be happy to pay for the conveniece.

GW PLC have a strong IP and some quality hobby related products.

GW used a retail chain in the late 1980s to establish a strong high street precence in the UK.This put them in a strong position to lead the revival in TTMG.

Pre PLC days GW was run by enthusiastic hobbiests, and it showed IMO.
GW sold stuff by inspiring creativity in others.(The GW studio and store staff still try to do this IMO.Which is a very good thing!)

I belive the problem was when GW PLC switched target demographic from 'gamers-hobbiests' to 'easiest to please'.
This is a corperate mind set, dont improve your product ,if you can just swich to less demanding customers!

If you are writing a rule set for experianced gamers , it much harder to please them than new players who have nothing to compare your rules to.
And if the 'rule of cool' becomes enough to sustain your new demographic demand for product, actual rules development and game support can be cut ....

GW PLC infer that 'GW hobby' is the only hobby worth bothering with, and other games are too complicated-/-boreing-/-dont exist!

And after a person has invested so much time and effort into building up a army for 40k/WH, they often feel they HAVE to wait for the game to improve over time.
As they dont think there are any alternatives available.

As there are rule sets that a FREE to down load, why not give them a try with your mates?(Using the minature you already have?)
Cost = a few pence/cents.Time takes less than an hour to print and learn.

According to JJ.
The GW hobby is all about.
1/ Collecting a huge amount of Citadel minatures.
2/Reading about the background to inspire you collection.
3/ Painting and converting Citadel minatures with GW HOBBY supplies and paint.
4/Forming you minatures in to usable armies with GW codexes & army books.
5/ Playing games using GW rule books.

'' ..the games are just the icing on the cake..''

I understand many are happy with the non game related parts of the hobby.
But as GW PLC,place cash values on models based on 'in game performance',perhaps collector only hobbiests are not getting VFM?

GW PLC appears to treat the social interaction/ gameing part of the hobby ,as a neccisary evil-optional extra!(Not bothered about resolving game play issues, anti- tournament players ?)

Games Workshop is not the best place to get games from, IMO!

As reguard to the GW branding of everything,and here is all you need approach for the newbs.
I belive this stifles creativity as EVERY example shown by GW uses its own branded products, ( for obvious reasons.)
And so the level of creativity available to be shown by GW staff is getting more limited ...

This is why JJ is limited to talking about 'the hobby' in standard bearer, rather than SHOWING the hobby in multiple WD articles.

The TTMG hobby lets you use whatever rules and products you like ,in the way you want to.
The GW hobby lets you use GW Branded products in the way GW propose.

Enticing you customers to become reliant on you brand, then moaning about why the customers dont work things out them selves is hypocritical IMO.
(GW core games are all thats worth playing, How dare you ask for FAQs and clarifications?)

The social interaction and creativity of the TTMG can be used with the GW RANGE OF PRODUCTS.
This doesnt make a seperate hobby IMO.(Just a restricted one!)

Why do I moan about poor gamer support -rules development -buisness practices at GW?

Because the ONLY thing that would make GW change direction, is loss of turn over.
So if enough gamers switched to alternative rules that didnt need new Citadel minatures every few years,maybe GW would put game play as top priority?

Any rule set that lists the many simple resolution methods available using D6s, to solve complex interactions on page 2.
Then totaly ignores them and uses umpteen seperate rules in the rest of the rule book , is indicative of the lazy exploitive attitude!
Also state on page 2 , the obvious 'The Most Important Rule.'(Dont be a '****'.)
Then write a get out clause for poor rules writeing,hiden in with common sense practicality.
(Yes its 40k.)

I belive GW is using the notion of the 'GW hobby' for profiteeering , and the detriment of the actual 'TTMG hobby.'

Yes other companies use rules to sell minatures.BUT use unified game play improvments,NOT extra 'spezhul rulz, woot!' that mess the gameplay up!

But rules companies that DONT have minture ranges to sell, and minature companies that dont have thier own rules to exploit.Tend to offer better VFM!

CLARIFICATION, GW PLC has a low opinion of its customers, (read the 'little red book', )NOT me!
Moderators, Please delete above line if required,(I know its a sensitive issue),many thanks,Lanrak.

TTFN
Lanrak.

lord_blackfang wrote:Right, I was just talking about gaming pieces (the plastic infantry manufacturers Killkrazy listed). Of course model vehicles are more detailed and there's about a billion different ones in any model shop. I was into WW2 tank kits before I found Warhammer.

Fair enough. GW's detail strength is, in my opinion, in their infantry models. At the same token, though, many of the historical manufacturers make just as detailed infantry in their own right (barring that 1:72 Revell crap. Eww...). I think the big difference, which is to GW's benefit, is that 40k minis are not "real", so they can add all sorts of doo-dads and bits and let imaginations really run wild. Historical models are bound by history and the scrutiny of the 'historical modelers' so they aren't really afforded the opportunity to add stuff outside the sphere of actual gear/uniforms/etc.

lord_blackfang wrote:I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

You can see where this looks VERY different than what you just said in your most recent reply, right? I'm not crazy, right?
Because I'm an historical model/wargame fanboy, I have to sing the praise of Hasegawa 1/72 infantry kits. They're pretty detailed plastic. For metal minis in 20mm, SHQ is hands-down the best. Detail, accuracy, and proportion to the nines, both companies.


Y'know? since we're talking about GW and detail, I just realized something that really backs up your original statement about GW's detail:

Epic 40k.

When it comes to 1:285-1:300 nobody, I mean NOBODY details like GW. Not even close. Heroics & Ross and GHQ were pretty much the be-all end-all of that scale for WWII minis and, honestly, they can't come anywhere NEAR the levels of detail that GW did with the Epic 40,000 (3rd ed.) re-scuplts. So, we can just pretend that that's what you were talking about all along and we'll have no choice but to agree with you.


Ghidorah

The closest I've gotten in terms of minis companies is Heresy, if only for the fact they send me free candy when I order their stuff.

Sweets? My preciousss!

People who play with small toy soldiers call other people who play with small toy soldiers nerds?

This isn't a new phenomenon. It's even more funny/sad when you're playing online, and someone in the game calls you a nerd with no life for playing the game.

Scrubs I can see, though. There are scrubs all over the place. I used to be one.