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Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN
Lanrak.

One thing, popularity.

I would love to play other games with my friends and collect miniatures for them. I love some of the Infinity range and also Warmachine/hordes and some others. But all my friends already own GW figs, we built armies a long time ago. It's a question of how much time and financial commitment has already been sunk into the 'GW' hobby and their reluctance to break from that.

One could argue that there wouldn't even be a ttmg, or much of one, without GW.

They've been around a long time, have opened doors for gamers, hobbyists, and other companies alike.

They have a huge fanbase which is widespread allowing easy contact with other gamers, as well as a larger range than any other company covering the two primary genres.

How's that for a start?

Wayfarer wrote:One could argue that there wouldn't even be a ttmg, or much of one, without GW.

They've been around a long time, have opened doors for gamers, hobbyists, and other companies alike.

They have a huge fanbase which is widespread allowing easy contact with other gamers, as well as a larger range than any other company covering the two primary genres.

How's that for a start?

TTMG was around long before GW and will probably be around long after GW have ceased to exist...

Some people say that GW introduce new youngsters into TTMG but in my experience very few of them branch off from GW (if they carry the hobby on at all). I would have to admit that there are a lot more fantasy and sci-fi games and figures out there due to the popularity of GW but fantasy and sci-fi is just a part of TTMG.

Mick

I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

You can walk into a GW shop as a complete n00b, slap your credit card on the counter and walk out with absolutely everything you need to build armies, terrain, rules, 'how to' guides, tools, paints and so on.

The staff will teach you how to play and paint, and you can even play games at the shop.

@Wayfarer, I would argue that without TTMG there wouldn't be much of a GW. They totally grew out of the already vibrant, decades old hobby of TTMG, and RPGs.

That's not to say GW haven't done a lot for wargaming, because they have.

Your depiction of fantasy and SF as the two primary genres does not recognise the enormous world of historicals, especially Ancients and Napoleonic.

You only need to go to a show like Salute or Adepticon to see that GW is a small part of the wargames world.

Wayfarer wrote:I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

If you get a chance chat to some historical gamers near where you live and possibly join in with a historical game.
All the historical gamers I know play them as 'what if?' games not 'right we have to move this unit here at this stage of the battle' games. Yes they research the armies they collect but dont you with your 40k or fantasy armies? I cant say I've ever seen an Ultramarine army in red or a followers of Khorne army devoid of red...
Mick

I'd love to meet more historical gamers but they tend to be an elusive and seclusive bunch. Much harder to find than your average GW gamer.

Wayfarer wrote:I'd love to meet more historical gamers but they tend to be an elusive and seclusive bunch. Much harder to find than your average GW gamer.

As Killcrazy said, attend a wargaming show near you or find out if there is a local independant gaming club in your area. I must warn you though if your young and mention you play GW games some may blank you (you get anal retentives in all aspects of this hobby...).

I've been gaming both historical and sci-fi/fantasy for over 30 years now and enjoy all aspects of both.

Mick

Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price, and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.
Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

My point is that most 'long term hobbeists are quite happy putting the effort in.The more effort you put in the table top minature hobby the more you get out of it!

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

I suppose GW depends on customer apathy to stop them trying out alternative rule sets?

Just some thoughts...

TTFN
lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price, and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.
Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

My point is that most 'long term hobbeists are quite happy putting the effort in.The more effort you put in the table top minature hobby the more you get out of it!

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

I suppose GW depends on customer apathy to stop them trying out alternative rule sets?

Just some thoughts...

TTFN
lanrak.

as a teen i feel insulted.

cause i have such a short attention span that i know what this months (november) standard bearer article wasn't at all anything to do with jervis bitching about new technology.

GW spoon feeds me so much that i have to put together and paint my own models ,right?

GW stores offer a good environment that can be competetive, after reading the model molester and worst sportsmanship examples threads i'm glad my local store isn't full of people who pick up models without asking or kids that chuck models at me because their 'uber' model died, we laugh and joke at our misfortune "haha i cant believe my vanguard veterans got killed by your assualt marines hahaha."

sure i could go other places and i like the look of other games but (though i am starting warmachine/hordes) i dont go to other places because 1) i dont feel like it and 2) GW stores have a better vibe to them.

Good man, twistinthunder. You just summed up my thoughts. Games Workshop seems to have a better vibe, and I love the fluff much, much more than alot of other stuff like Wm. Gw relies on the fluff to rope in/keep people imo.

Wow, this is practically trolling.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

Historicals don't even get to pick their own colour scheme. Who's being spoonfed here?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.

And then play a game with someone who you've just met? At a tournament? I think not.

Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

True.

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

So you get to pick a colour scheme from a history book, convert metal models, and play with NO support. Yay.

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

The effort being, hunting down all the models you need from a dozen different manufacturers cause none of them do a complete range, then poring over a dozen different rulesets and hoping your friends will like the same one you do...

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

Too slowed to be worth countering.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

Probably cause GW ways of using miniatures is pretty interesting already. And cause we like being able to play with strangers. And go to tournaments. And probably most of all, because GW gives us a cool universe for our models to play in.

GW Hobby advantages, specifically 40k in no real order:

1. Best IP around, no universe is cooler than 40k not even reality's

2. Best miniatures

3. Actually has a longstanding history

4. Cultural impact on other geeky ways of life such as influencing the ultra-successful Blizzard Entertainment (Starcraft)

5. Video games, movie on the horizon, a library of fluff to geek away at

6. Huge network

7. Fun and easily learned rules although this could be a trait for most table top games

GW has made it easy for my two sons to get involved with TTMG. Thanks to AoBR both have a core army to play with and they can swap with each other. their saved pocket money is spent at my local GW store where I can chat with the staff about rule queries opinions on new and existing rule sets and to generally have a chit chat with staff and the gamers there. My kids get to run around plucking boxes off the shelves and harasing the red shirts asking them such questions as can space marines have Carnifexes' and "Wow! I'm going to play Ents against your Orks!".

Inevitably I have to calm them down and explain that £10 is not going to buy a land raider, land speeder, Deff Dread or Nobz box set. The staff usually give my boys good advice, the gamers give even better advice and with a couple of the older gamers and the teens settle on a miniature or box set that has weapons that could really mangle my Guard!

I can then go home look at the rules set for 40K strip out some of the boring technical aspects of the rules and while a away an hour rolling dice as both the little snots gang up on me and try to take me down!

GW make it easy for me to do these things, whilst they may have their faults the fact that my kids can get something out of the hobby, earlier than I started to, is great.

i just realise

gw is a TTMG hobby so your topic is pointless and makes no sense.

Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started? Sorry to the OP if I''m misinterpreting the tone, but it seems like you're one of the guys that was terrible at 40K fantasy, so you quit intead of trying to improve, and picked up some other game system that was so simple even an ape could win, and have now come back to troll the game you were so bad at by asking why other people enjoy it when (in your opinion) you couldn't win so clearly it sucked. I base this on the fact that your original post was made in the form of an inquiry, but then you just reverted to "GW sucks this and that, and is only made for little kids".

Again, if this isn't how it was supposed to be interpreted, my apologies. But from looking at your posts, that's the game you're playing.

Cane wrote:GW Hobby advantages, specifically 40k in no real order:

1. Best IP around, no universe is cooler than 40k not even reality's

This is true. You can literally pour over the history and background of the 40K universe for a year and not manage to read through all of it. It really is just absolutely massive, and can be compared to real historical literature in terms of quality and overall length.

2. Best miniatures

Save for the problem of bubbles and holes with the Forgeworld Resin minis, I'd have to agree to this too. As far as wargames go, the detail put into a lot of the minis is just insane. The great majority of games are more of a "That looks good enough" style. GW's sculpting team actually does extremely well. Sure, there're better looking display kits from non-wargaming companies like Tamiya, but as far as wargames minis go, GW has some of the best.

3. Actually has a longstanding history

Fantasy has been around since the mid-70's. A lot of today's Historical, Sci Fi, and Fantasy wargames are relatively new on the other hand. These new rulesets aren't as tried and true as the GW method. That's one thing I like. Sure, GW might have some problems with balancing, but as far as the overall game system goes, it's very. very solid. The idea of modifying Fantasy rules to work with a Sci Fi game helped to make it rapidly adaptable, and many Fantasy Players are able to hop seamlessly between the two games with little adjustment.

4. Cultural impact on other geeky ways of life such as influencing the ultra-successful Blizzard Entertainment (Starcraft)

+1 This as well. How many endless Memes have popped up thanks to 40K? Warcraft and Starcraft were BOTH meant to be made for Fantasy and 40K respectively, but GW didn't like the games due to their almost Goto-like adhereance (or lack thereof) to the established fluff. Not to mention that a massive amount of these new Table Top games were birthed by ex-GW employees.

5. Video games, movie on the horizon, a library of fluff to geek away at

As well as some of the largest, most widely attended single-company Games-Days in existance.

6. Huge network

That has unfortunately become bloated and rather ineffective. This seems to be a recurring trait for many large companies, some worse than others. I'd consider GW in the middle. I don't support their choice to increase costs while decreasing pk qty of their goods, but hopefully if they take anything out of this recession it'll be an understanding that they need to rethink their structuring system and come up with something more cost-effective, both for them and their customers.

7. Fun and easily learned rules although this could be a trait for most table top games

For the basic turns and rolls, yes. GW's systems are very easy to grasp. "Movement->Shooting->Assault" is a pretty solid system. Teaching my Girlfriend to play a basic turn took about 2 or 3 minutes. The Cover system is quite solid as well, and everything is classified easily in the 3+ to 6+ table. Some aspects are confusing and may take time to grasp, but overall a small minimal FOC game takes about half an hour, which to me is just the perfect amount of time to help someone get a grip on the game.

You did however leave out massive customization. By no means are you bound to GW-only models for your army. You can use entirely different minis or come up with new races, and no one will really say "Hey, that's unfluffy!" (Unless of course it clearly is - ie Femme-Marines). But for those set on GW minis, you could, for example, take Lizardmen and build chest harnesses of them and then model them walking on all fours and you've got the Loxatl as one example. Another would be that you could use Vampire Counts and make a Human-form Thexian Army (Being that they're shapeshifters, you can just take any mini from any 28mm range and add fangs - doesn't have to be GW or Human!)

And you can always invent your own race and use them as a "Counts as" army. There is just so much customization with 40K that you don't get with historical systems or other Sci-Fi games that it's very worth buying into. Don't like GW's minis or prices, but enjoy the game system? As long as you're not playing at any GW stores, your mini range doesn't have to be GW - you just need your Codex-of-Choice. The vast majority of FLGS are happy to include balanced "Counts As" armies. Or, if you've got a good sense of game and army balance, you can try writing your own Dex. A guy at my pref. FLGS wrote his own dex for a custom race and it's quite balanced. Some really weak and OP areas, but overall he did a GW quality job.

Overall, it's like any other wargame. If you love it you love it, and if you don't, that's fine. But if you choose to listen to the replies being posted to your original inquiry, then there're some good reasons that people enjoy the system that make it better than Warmachine and FoW. Not that those are bad systems in themselves, but a lot of people, myself included, find the GW game system to just be more solid and well-rooted.

metallifan wrote:Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started?

Nope, fourth or fifth. Lanrak has a bone to pick with GW.

And the mods don't just lock his threads of this type immediately, why?



Like I said, you don't have to like GW or it's products, but that doesn't give you the right to hop on Dakka and intentionally start a thread with the sole purpose of flaming and trolling GW players while trying to disguise it as an honest question when really, you're taking the childish 'Plug your ears and yell "LALALALALA" as loud as you can' approach. If you'd actually like answers, ask away. But if you're just looking to make yourself feel better about some qualm you had with GW or the fact that you were terrible at 40K/Fantasy, or whatever the problem is, then don't bother posting. This isn't the site to do it on. I hear Warseer is nice this time of year though.

Probably because nobody alerts them. Mods, while all-wise and all-powerful, aren't all-seeing. If they're not made aware, they can't act on something.

I believe that Dakka Mods have a beneficent approach and tend not to preemptively lock when they don't have to. That is, they appear to let things develop a bit. Also, as above, it takes time for someone to alert, and then time for a Mod to see the alert, and then time to review, etc.

Warseer is a very different animal. I'm sure the OP would have been banned there by now.

There was nothing wrong with the original post.

It asked fair questions.

But you, Metallifan, seem to be goading this guy for daring to question GW. As I have said in other threads, we have the right as consumers of a product or indeed as potential consumers, to question and criticise. The relationship between GW and the rest of the TTMG world is a subject worthy of discussion and so far, nothing in it was rude or unpleasant, it has become so now that you've appeared to defend poor old GW from the nasty OP...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Sometimes an inflammatory thread prompts good discussion. I like that this one allowed multiple people to post about all the thngs we really like about wargaming and GW games and figures specifically.

Exactly. It clarified what the OP really wanted ITT.

lord_blackfang wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Meh, I've certainly read and possibly posted worse rants at GW than that. Heck even yakface turned his nose up at their commentary in the last financial report and he's cleaner that John the Baptist.

Hey, you only know the parts that John made public.

When you're best buds with Jesus on a "forgiveness" schtick, you can get away with some seriously filthy gak...

Lanrak wrote:

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

The fluff and the miniatures that's it. If you're in it for anything else you missed the target a bit.

I like grand tournaments, and fairly regular local tournaments and leagues, in which I can expect to play against new opponents and armies with some regularity. GW games feature those things.

I never said I based things on his original post. Indeed I stated that his original post was made as a fair and goo-natured inquiry, but was soured by his further posts displaying a "GW Sucks cuz' I said so" attitude. It did ask seemingly fair questions, but the future posts that pretty much shoot down the supportive answers he was given reveals this for the trolling thread it actually is.

There's a difference between questioning and criticism, and refusing to listen to anything others tell you. I've made that point already. I'm all for discussion on the topic of GW in relation to the rest of the Wargames market, and I've clearly said that I don't support their prices in relation to low pack quantities, pointing out non GW products as viable alternatives, but when the OP refuses to consider anything other than his own opinion, that's not really much of a discussion at all.

His first post was fine. The subsequent ones are those that would be trolling.

The fluff is good but it does annoy me when they change it to suit the latest codex or characters...
Mick