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Lanrak wrote:


the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.

yep because the fact that the gw stores have a better atmosphere has nothing to do with hobby.besides product are part of hobby.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

That I don't know. However, there is a world of difference between criticism, and constructive critcism. Rather than just telling that in your opinion they suck, it's far more valuable to the company to be told why they suck in your opinion.

As I've raised several times, posting anonymous whinges online achieves nothing beyond raised blood pressure on the poster. Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it? Sure it would be nice, but to say the lack of it shows a lack of care for contact is untrue.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

I now have an image in my head of the board meeting for this, complete with overhead projected Powerpoint presentation and graphs.

Great now youve got me think their board meeting are:

"guys they think we suck"

"fine we'll just update space marines again! hahahahahaha!"

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it?

May I ask, with all due respect, what the you are talking about? I've emailed them a half-dozen times about questions ranging from rules to tournaments and NEVER received a response. Are you talking about the little peon that returns email rules questions that no one cares about?

I believe they say they will always read 'snail' mail. However it should be noted that many other companies use this as a means of discouraging communication, I should imagine GW is no different.

George Spiggott wrote:I believe they say they will always read 'snail' mail. However it should be noted that many other companies use this as a means of discouraging communication, I should imagine GW is no different.

Well I sent them a Christmas list a few years ago and haven't heard gak from them...

All this gw hate is boring and getting pathetic now.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

Doc- I agree GW are very good when it comes to getting kids involved through schools and in the shops as well as other new people, and further support instore, but let's be honest, its certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts which you seem to be trying to make out (if your not I apologise now), its just another way to generate more income (It wasn't that long ago that they had the scheme for kids to win higher 'promotions' by introducing more and more kids to the hobby...).

They are a very good business company, so please don't try to put across the 'friendly, we're doing it for you' angle. The share holders and profits will always come before us...

Mick

What is snail mail? I'd rather like to debate why Chaos Legions were taken out, and try to get my point across to them.

"Regular" mail, with stamps and envelopes

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

That I don't know. However, there is a world of difference between criticism, and constructive critcism. Rather than just telling that in your opinion they suck, it's far more valuable to the company to be told why they suck in your opinion.

As I've raised several times, posting anonymous whinges online achieves nothing beyond raised blood pressure on the poster. Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it? Sure it would be nice, but to say the lack of it shows a lack of care for contact is untrue.

I remember the GW forums. They were TERRIBLE. They were, I am not kidding here, akin to the Warcraft official forums. Full of people calling others nerds, losers, scrubs, etc. Those forums were the reason that I ended up finding Dakka however--so they're not ALL bad.

Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

olympia wrote:Are you talking about the little peon that returns email rules questions that no one cares about?

What did John Spencer ever do to you?

Lanrak wrote:

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

As much as some people moan about it and whine- GW does kinda have a large chain of stores that kinda offer direct suport for gamers and game play- I can't think of any other company where you can walk into their store and get help with planning an army, getting it assembled, getting it painted and either playing their or hooking you up with other players- you can't do that with any other company because no other compnay does that at all.

Now I know that there isn't the same saturation of stores in the states, and I know some people throw so lovely horror stories out there about GW staff- but they aren't all that bad- in fact some of them are quite good- especially at the helping out and supporting the gamers in their area.

Da Boss wrote:Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

The UK forum was well moderated.

TheFirstBorn wrote:All this gw hate is boring and getting pathetic now.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

Not just me thinking this then? Sadly anyone holding such a view though usually gets boo'ed off for not joining the vocal "GW sucks" crowd

Da Boss wrote:Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

That's the thing. They did, just like Blizzard does, their best. There's only so much you can do with a specific base of moderators in certain timezones. Look at Dakka. We do fairly well shutting down threads when they need it--but some DO slip through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

Oh definitely. I loved whenever info about Recon armor came up--it was the biggest bunch of hooligans you'll ever see then.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

So it sounds just like playing Halo3 online then?

That's just juvenile halo players. Which admittedly does account for 80% of them. No, I don't like most teen online players.

To answer Lanrak's post:

I see the "GW hobby" as an entrance tool. It works to get kids into gaming.
It does, however, seem that many kids do it ONLY because their friends do, and that when their friends stop, they also drop out.
Those of them that stay (after their friends have stopped) often open their eyes to the wider world of TTMG, existing beyond mere 40k/fantasy.

Some of us older people remember the hobby before GW 'co-opted' it into "their" hobby.
We used other systems as bootstraps to get to 40k/fantasy. I started with napoleonics. Now, as anal-retentive as some of those players are, 40k has its own share of them. Don't believe me? Try playing your chaos legion as Space Wolves and see how much flak you cop.

Yes, GW is a 'one stop shop' - but they aren't the only place. I could probably get a lot of stuff that I need from Wal-Mart, doesn't mean I won't shop around.

I know I don't have to buy flock, glue, tools and paint from GW as the guys who got me into TTMG were model railroaders. I knew that there were other (cheaper) sources for these before 40k existed.

The GW forum claimed to be an area where customers could make their views known to the company. In particular the White Dwarf section was used to specifically ask for feedback by the then editor. Well some responses were unhelpful, but many were long, detailed, moderate in demands and importantly polite. Claims were made that it was all being taken on board and that within 3 months changes would be seen, as WH has a 3 month lead on publishing. Well 6 months later there was no change and the editor was no longer coming onto the forum. People cottoned on and got upset. So upset in fact, that the closed the White Dwarf section down altogether. I guess in the end the whole place became such a horrible mess, they thought it was a stain on their clean corporate website so executed exterminatus on the whole forum.

yep because the fact that the gw stores have a better atmosphere has nothing to do with hobby.besides product are part of hobby.

Better atmosphere?! All I ever hear about GW stores is how fething awful they are, both to play and shop in.

Personally I wouldn't know, GW abandoned my state a year or two ago, but from the sound of things we're better off anyway. I'd rather spend my time in an indie retailer and not have to be constantly pressured into buying certain models...or rung up for gak at the register that I didn't intend on purchasing anyway. Or given bad advice/outright lied to in order to make a sale. Etc.

Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail.

Because it's a waste of time, GW doesn't read that gak. I'll bet you anything snail mail goes straight to the trash and if they even still answer e-mails anymore it's probably the company standard "We didn't really read your letter" response.

I believe we can contact the Design Team freely.

Only if you have their personal phone numbers, I would imagine, since I haven't seen anything on the website or elsewhere that gives me the option of contacting someone like Jervis directly.

I believe they respond to everyone

Not what I've heard. And there's someone claiming the contrary in this very thread, no less.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

1. I'm already not buying the models.

2. No, you bugger off.

What is snail mail? I'd rather like to debate why Chaos Legions were taken out, and try to get my point across to them.

Good luck with that. If they don't just ignore you outright then I imagine you'd get a similar response to what Gav posted on his blog. Lots of dodged questions and strawmen.

What did John Spencer ever do to you?

No one connected to GW is innocent!

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

I see what you did there

Lanrak wrote:
My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

I don't like your views of teenagers, as one myself, and knowing somewhere in the 1000's of them, the "New shiny things" types are busy with infact, new shiny things. The teenagers that play TTMG aren't like that.

But that's ok, I'll get off your lawn.

Lanrak wrote:
And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

I dare you to do any hobby without the related products. The hobby aspect is one with the product aspect, especially in any TTMG. Tried building a ship in a bottle with out a bottle or a ship in which to construct inside?

Lanrak wrote:
GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

Depends on how you chose to do things. You can choose how you do things as much as anything else. There is no right way of doing things, there is no "ONE WAY ONLY" to anything except time, life, and one way streets.

Lanrak wrote:
And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

See my previous point. If you really, REALLY, can't find someone who isn't "WIN WIN WIN" then find someone else or don't play.

Lanrak wrote:

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

This is both good and bad, depends on who you are.

I like the extra rules, because it give more individuality.

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

Woah, I missed that. I disagree entirely, the terrain kits are a boon, there's so much you can do with them, and they're one of the only reasonably-priced things you can get from GW.

Ahhhhh! So many acronyms... I don't even know what TTMG means. Table-top Miniature Games?

You say you don't know what the acronyms are, then with a wild stab at Jervis, you manage to nail it.

Yes, that is exactly what TTMG means.

Mick A wrote:Doc- I agree GW are very good when it comes to getting kids involved through schools and in the shops as well as other new people, and further support instore, but let's be honest, its certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts which you seem to be trying to make out (if your not I apologise now), its just another way to generate more income (It wasn't that long ago that they had the scheme for kids to win higher 'promotions' by introducing more and more kids to the hobby...).

They are a very good business company, so please don't try to put across the 'friendly, we're doing it for you' angle. The share holders and profits will always come before us...

Mick

Indeed. Not since Fondles the Clown or Joe Camel have I seen such solicitude for our children.

Terrain kits are a long-standing product in non-GW wargaming -- buildings, trees, cliff sections and so on.

There's nothing wrong with ready made terrain bits.

Modellers can still express their creativity by making original pieces.

I would like GW to produce some Tau and Eldar terrain pieces.

I would like your avatar to stop staring at me like that.

I wish that cork bark was easy to get a hold of. The only place I can find it is on eBay.

I thought the GW forums were removed when people like me politely asked where threads containing criticism went. The forums were so well moderated nothing but praise was left there, at least blizzard leave the threads of people getting angry and ranting about servers being down up. And those threads were always funny to read