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Lanrak wrote:Hi Mastiff.
Nope you still are missing the point.
The hobby is the Table top minature gameing hobby.

GWPLC insist on calling it the 'GW hobby' to promote insular marketing for thier own products.

This is what I object to.

All the positive creativity and interaction is the TTMG hobby.

GW just restrict the focus to GW product and pretend its all there is!
And many new customers belive this.
And you do pay more for convineince at GW stores .(Most convenience stores put on 25 to 50 % mark up, not 200% to 1800%!)

My beef is with the fat and lazy corperate managment at GW towers.
Can not compete in an open market, then create an artificialy closed one!(The GW hobby.)
Customers demanding better games, find less demanding customers!(Focus on new customers only.)

No other company producing product for the TTMG pretend to be the entire hobby.
And if the 3 core GW games dont suit you , you may leave GW thinking the TTMG hobby is not for you, and miss out on ALL the other options!

Is this clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Much clearer, thanks.

I got sidetracked disputing your points, (sorry about that) but what I wanted to say was this; take a break if it bothers you this much.

I'm not saying "STFU and GTFO" but honestly, take six months off from the hobby and see if you miss it. You've had so many posts that make your frustration and dissatisfaction clear. How much fun are you still getting out of the game? Why do you stay?

Life's waaay to short to let any business rob of you of your joy in life. This is supposed to be fun. Whenever this stops being fun I leave the game. Sometimes I'll take up a new game, like Confrontation for a few years. Other times I just quit gaming altogether and find completely different hobbies. I take only what I need from GW, and ignore the rest. Their success in marketing means that they'll still be in business if and when I decide to return. That's incredibly rare in this industry. Think of comparable properties like Battletech and Dungeons & Dragons. They keep dying and needing resurrection over and over again. The "convenience" factor of GW has been effective in keeping the company alive for an unprecedented 25 years. Yeah, they can be obnoxious, but if they're selling they're still breathing. And I don't have to listen.

But obviously I don't really know you, just the frustration I see in your posts. Good luck with the game, I hope you you're still getting some fun out of it, enough to justify putting up with all the crap.

GW do what any company would do. Promote their products, and their products alone.

It's the customer who finds out about alternatives.

I still fail to see the great evil at work here?

Hi MDG.
I have no problem with folks going into a Sony shop and buying Sony product,McDonanlds and buying McDonalds product. OR going into a GW shop and buying GW (Citadel) product.

Simply having your own brand shop for your own brand product is NOT the issue.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.

How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

(I have moved on , and found alternative products that suit me better. )

But reading these boards, SO MANY other gamers feel compelled to stay with GW products even thought they are not that happy with them.(Rules especialy...)
Are they all aware of the alternatives?

How many posts ask 'can I use this substitute-conversion in a game..'

Its YOUR hobby, not GWs!

As the newbs are told its 'GW hobby' therfore they feel they need permission from GW to adapt it to suit them perhaps?

The 'GW hobby' is a creation of the corperate management to inflict an 'insular marketing dynamic' on a 'vunerable demoghraphic'.

All the great stuff, the creativity and the social interaction happens when you take part in the Table Top Minature Gaming Hobby.
If you limit yourself to using a particular brand of product it doesnt change the name of the hobby, just restricts your options!

Is this any clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

You know, i have a love hate relationship with GW, no other company i know of in the mini industry has managed to draw such Fanatical fans or such hate, and i think thats because other games at least listen to the fan base, where as GW clearly doesnt listen to anyone except themselves. look at every release in the past 5 years and its all the tired 'were excited' line. But thats how they do business. it suxs that no one is called in to give an honest assessment of some of the crap they put out.

On the other hand, and i know its already been said, i strongly belive that GW is a large part of why the hobby exists as it does today, without them TTG would be a smaller less happy place. so love em or hate em, both points of view are valid.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.
How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

Lanrak, do you really believe newcomers are unaware of other mini games out there? This board constantly posts minis from other games. And you won't find a town that can support a GW shop, but isn't already supporting an independent hobby shop. It's safe to say that if a person can find Dakka, they can find alternatives to GW. That they choose to stick with one game isn't due to a conspiracy.

Sony and McDonalds would be ecstatic if people believed that there were no alternatives. But sticking with GW, they do what they do. They sell their own product. Dakka does a great job of exposing people to alternatives. Look what we've got in just the last day or two:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265161.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258011.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265026.page

Informing so-called "newbs" is OUR responsibility, not any company's. If you feel other TTMGs are under-represented, then post more options, post more pics, post more product reviews. Do the same in real life. Repeatedly complaining that a company isn't spending enough money promoting their competitor's wares? That's just silly.

Wayfarer wrote:I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

Wow, way to understand TTG. It has a much longer and richer histroy than GW's roughly 20 years or so.

Its actually alot more than that, N00b.

Modquisition on.

OK Ok lets keep it polite here or this thread will be closed blah blah.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does...

Absolutely. It's almost as bad as when one hobbyist decides that his personal opinion of the hobby is correct, and everyone else is either wrong or evil, and rants about it forever and ever ...oh, wait

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Lanrak wrote:How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

How on earth is this relevant to well... anything?

Lanrak wrote:Hi MDG.
I have no problem with folks going into a Sony shop and buying Sony product,McDonanlds and buying McDonalds product. OR going into a GW shop and buying GW (Citadel) product.

Simply having your own brand shop for your own brand product is NOT the issue.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.

How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

(I have moved on , and found alternative products that suit me better. )

But reading these boards, SO MANY other gamers feel compelled to stay with GW products even thought they are not that happy with them.(Rules especialy...)
Are they all aware of the alternatives?

How many posts ask 'can I use this substitute-conversion in a game..'

Its YOUR hobby, not GWs!

As the newbs are told its 'GW hobby' therfore they feel they need permission from GW to adapt it to suit them perhaps?

The 'GW hobby' is a creation of the corperate management to inflict an 'insular marketing dynamic' on a 'vunerable demoghraphic'.

All the great stuff, the creativity and the social interaction happens when you take part in the Table Top Minature Gaming Hobby.
If you limit yourself to using a particular brand of product it doesnt change the name of the hobby, just restricts your options!

Is this any clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Righty dokey skip. Before I go much further, I will point out I've had a few pints tonight, so bare with.

How many NooBs know about non-GW games? Very few, to none. Why? Because GW, apart from all other hobby wargame manufacturers, have High Street Presence. They bother to invest time and money setting up Hobby Stores. Stores where you can go in completely clueless, and leave with everything you could ever possibly need to start up. Board? Check. Rules? Check. Background stuff? Check. Paints? Check. Tools? Checks. Brushes? Check.

They are a complete hobby unto themselves, within the wider TTWG hobby. Newbs are unaware of the wider hobby, because they are newbs. No other company has bothered to reach out and make their presence felt to them. I started off with Heroquest, then a friend picked up a random copy of White Dwarf (Blood Angels cover, first instance of Captain Tycho) and my fate was sealed. All your vaunted rivals...what effort do they put in?

As for creativty etc coming in when you break from GW is bollocks, and you know it. The game system is a giant sandbox. Want to play a 'What If?' scenario? Do it. Want to refight the pivotal battles of the Heresy? Do it. The only thing limiting a gamer is themselves. NOT a company.

You hate GW. We get this, and fair enough. But if all you can do is present one dimensional arguments, I will worry about you.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN

I play GW 40k, and Fantasy. I also play Flames of War. I will say my flames crowd is a better treat, but they don't come out but once a week to my local club. GW is far far more organized. White Dwarf is great, and Citidal minis are the best in the biz. If you live in a big city with one, the GW stores are also a great resource.
Lanrak.

HI again.
MDG.
I dont 'HATE GW '.
But wish to question the validity of the buisness decisions and the wider impact on the consumer that they have.

GW have a product range you can use to start a TTMG hobby with.This doesnt mean it it a seperate hobby , even though GW want to try to promote this distinction.

GW run a chain of shops to sell this stock.(As they thought the internet was a passing fad! .)This costs A LOT of money to do, so they choose to maximise returns off new customers.

This means 'educating' the new customers to think GW is the ONLY source of TTMG product.

I didnt say you could not be creative with the range of GW products.
Just the inferance of the 'GW Hobby' often leads to people 'asking permission' to move away from the GW examples!

GW try to instill GW brand dependancy in its customers , to maximise returns, yet feel no compulsion to support customers who have game play issues.
They infer...'You must ONLY use GW hobby product other wise you are not doing it right..'
Then when it comes to rules...'we have not got a clue how to write a well defined and comprehensive rule set, so just make it up your self..'
This disjiont in cusomer directives causes some problems , IMO.

My point was the TTMG hobby is the creative and socialy interactive hobby we ALL enjoy.
The 'GW hobby' is a misnomer , dreamed up by corperate managment to maintian brand loyalty through inforced insular marketing structure.

GW are in the buisness of selling minatures.
But pretend to care about game play and game development.(To promote new minature releases.)
And supply a lot of rebranded product at atificialy inflated prices.
And then claim to be a seperate hobby.

I personaly think this is not the most efficient way of conducting buisness.(And not ethicaly right.)

To clarify ,I did not mean to infer GW non rules product were inferior quality , or you couldnt enjoy using GW product.

TTFN
Lanrak.

As they thought the internet was a passing fad!

I think they still do.

There is a world of difference between not mentioning the existence of something, and denying it's existence.

But why would anyone expect to go into a GW store thinking the store is going to promote and sell Warmachine or Infinity or whatever.

Nobody goes into a Ford dealer expecting to see Chevy's on display and have the Ford salesman pitch a talk about how good Chevy's are.

So I'm confused as to why it's wrong that GW promotes ONLY their product in their stores and ONLY tries to get customers to buy THEIR product. As far as I know no other corporation in the world promotes other companies/corporations products and nobody I know gets upset over that.

Weird.

I've also looked into other rules sets and I just don't get the same vibe I do with 40k. I see no faction in Warmachine that jumps out at me or is even close to similiar to the armies I play in 40k ('Nids and Daemons) and as much as I like WW2 I won't get into FoW as nobody else around here even has an interest in it and if I want my WW2 fix I'll just play CoD or watch some ww2 movies.

So while their might be better rules sets out there none of them offer me the same army/force choices and feel that my Tyranids give me or that Daemons give me; not to mention most miniature ranges outside of GW are crap (PP comes close as well but hard to "counts as" a 'Nid army with WM figs, not to mention PP is now not much cheaper than GW when it comes to mini pricing).

Hi Fateweaver.
I am ONLY objecting to the misnomer. the 'GW HOBBY'.

GW have a selection of shops selling product that can be used in the TTMG hobby.

But the term 'GW hobby' infers 'this is all there is' , and that the 'hobby' belongs to GW!

This is what I am objecting to.

(PS. Have you looked at 'No limits', or 'Xenocide Firefight' ? If you can use your current 40k minatures with alternative rule sets that are free to down load, most gamers will give them a go!)

MDG. I dont expect GW stores to tell thier customers to by hobby products in other stores at a fraction of the price.(Even though I know of a few good GW staff that do. )

But just stop using the term the 'GW hobby'.As it just re-enforces restrictive ideas.

If no-one else belives that its that important, then simply refering to 'the hobby ' in stead of the 'GW hobby', wont be a big problem for GW PLC, will it?
May be you could be kind enough to suggest this to your bosses MDG?

Happy gameing
Lanrak.

Hi Lanrak,

Are you arguing semantics now? To me the 'GW Hobby' is 'inclusive of GW products' I dont see how that can cause any ire or anger or warrant any.

To be redundant GW do not have to acknowledge the hobby outside of their own interests, they are not trying to own the hobby, miniature gaming, or whatever but as a business they are trying to make their hobby THE hobby.

Is it really the wording or the ideal? if it is the ideal then are you only complaining for complaining sake? because its GW? If this truly bothers you I would have thought that other major companies and industries manufacturing and supplying products for consumption would be targets for you as well? Microsoft, Sony? Apple, Tesco? Vauxhall? they want your money and are not going to tell you to go elsewhere? implied with a piece of text or not.

I'm just trying to understand why this is such a big deal.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Fateweaver.
I am ONLY objecting to the misnomer. the 'GW HOBBY'.

GW have a selection of shops selling product that can be used in the TTMG hobby.

But the term 'GW hobby' infers 'this is all there is' , and that the 'hobby' belongs to GW!

This is what I am objecting to.

(PS. Have you looked at 'No limits', or 'Xenocide Firefight' ? If you can use your current 40k minatures with alternative rule sets that are free to down load, most gamers will give them a go!)

MDG. I dont expect GW stores to tell thier customers to by hobby products in other stores at a fraction of the price.(Even though I know of a few good GW staff that do. )

But just stop using the term the 'GW hobby'.As it just re-enforces restrictive ideas.

If no-one else belives that its that important, then simply refering to 'the hobby ' in stead of the 'GW hobby', wont be a big problem for GW PLC, will it?
May be you could be kind enough to suggest this to your bosses MDG?

Happy gameing
Lanrak.

You're contradicting yourself. You don't like GW "infering" that their version of the hobby is the only one out there. But you don't want them to differentiate their version of the hobby from the overall TTMG experience by calling it "GW hobby" vs a more general "the hobby". Yet you make it very clear you do think there is a difference between the two...

Would you feel better if they changed their phrasing to "the hobby" and claimed to speak for the entire Tabletop Miniature Gaming experience?. They're making it clear that they're only pushing their own version of the hobby.

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Cool, but guess what? Without GW, you wouldn't have Flames of War.

Flames was designed as a system that could be played in 2-3 hours, and could support tournaments. No coincidence at all that there is heavy GW influence on some of the game design, the packaging, marketing, etc. 90% of the head guys are all ex-GW people, from John-Paul, all the way down to 75% of the people at the US warehouse. And don't forget Dave Taylor over at Wargames Illustrated.

There has always been a lot of WWII miniature games available to play, so why is it that FOW have brought in so many new players?)

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

This I would guess is all based on your personal experience?

Over the years, GW have carved out their niche in an already nice market, expanded it, and arguably revitalised the Hobby overall. Every single gamer I know got into the Hobby via GW. Every last one of them. Indeed, it's only been the past what, 6 years that possible rivals in the shape of PP and FoW have got their toe in the door, and even then they can currently only dream of GW's level of sales and gamers.

And correct me if I wrong (I might well be) but FoW is a pre-painted system is it not? Don't know a great deal about it. But if it is, then sadly it's less of a Hobby Game, and more of a Wargame. In order to qualify as a Hobby, it needs to go beyond the gaming board (painting, modelling, conversions). Whilst there is nothing stopping this happening on a gamer to game basis, the system itself is not designed with it in mind.

mikhaila wrote:

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Cool, but guess what? Without GW, you wouldn't have Flames of War.

Flames was designed as a system that could be played in 2-3 hours, and could support tournaments. No coincidence at all that there is heavy GW influence on some of the game design, the packaging, marketing, etc. 90% of the head guys are all ex-GW people, from John-Paul, all the way down to 75% of the people at the US warehouse. And don't forget Dave Taylor over at Wargames Illustrated.

There has always been a lot of WWII miniature games available to play, so why is it that FOW have brought in so many new players?)

There haven't always been a lot of WW2 games available. In the 80s there were only a few rulebooks on the market and they generally dealt with microarmour scales.

It isn't a new idea to make a game playable in 2-3 hours and tournament friendly. WRG and DBA did it long before GW.

The clever thing about FoW is to have designed a system which works well with a company level skirmish, allowing the use of 15mm figures which combine visual appeal and good palyable size on the table. The presentation is good and the rules are accessible to newcomers.

Packaging and presentation qualities were already being found in wargame rules of the 80s such as GDW's Striker.

I'm not saying anything against GW -- they've done a lot for wargaming -- it just annoys me to hear people seem to say that GW invented or reinvented the TTWG hobby. What happened is they rode the crest of a wave of change that was already moving.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This I would guess is all based on your personal experience?

Over the years, GW have carved out their niche in an already nice market, expanded it, and arguably revitalised the Hobby overall. Every single gamer I know got into the Hobby via GW. Every last one of them. Indeed, it's only been the past what, 6 years that possible rivals in the shape of PP and FoW have got their toe in the door, and even then they can currently only dream of GW's level of sales and gamers.

And correct me if I wrong (I might well be) but FoW is a pre-painted system is it not? Don't know a great deal about it. But if it is, then sadly it's less of a Hobby Game, and more of a Wargame. In order to qualify as a Hobby, it needs to go beyond the gaming board (painting, modelling, conversions). Whilst there is nothing stopping this happening on a gamer to game basis, the system itself is not designed with it in mind.

A: GW in the way of years yes has an amazing foundation so of coarse overall they are going to be stronger. If you compare it to a fact of numbers/sales per year per capita and such. I.E I sell this much to indy retailers this year and match it with other companies. Then GW is well in the tank comparitivly speaking to Battlefront, and Privateer Press. profits wise these companies are actually generating money and being smart with their expansions as oppossed to GW which int he past 5 years has been unable to show a solid gain at their annual stock holders meetings. Now GW did start in the UK and from what I have heard it is run much more efficently then the division here in the US. That said it can be based on personal experience to a degree.

B: Please do some form of mild research before you go into a paragraph of explanation on weather or not somethings a hobby as FOW is unpainted tried and true and the buyer is required to paint(well sorta) the models for game play. A hobby is defined by websters dictionary as "An activity that one enjoys doing in one's spare time" . This by no means implies that if i can't convert something or paint it it is a game and not a hobby.

Couldn't give a Rats what the definition of 'Hobby' is in a Dictionary.

A Wargame is a hobby.

A Hobby Game is a game involving lots of activites beyond just the gaming side.

Now as I said, is your original statement based only on your opinion and experience, or on something tangible and measurable?

As for the companies generating money...without them being PLC (and thus having to show their results) how can you be sure?

...... do people actually read full post or just sumerize? I answered all your questions in the post but since you didnt seem to understand what I wrote here it is.

YES IT IS A MATTER OF WHAT COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN SO YES PERSONAL/TANGIBLE OPINON.

and hobbies arent just games they can be collecting stamps sowing, writing, or in this case debating.

Mad DoK-

You might be thinking of the Axis and Allies pre-painted game from Wotc/Hasbro.

Flames of War is a 15mm WWII wargame, and comes unpainted in a very similar way to GW. You purchase it in blisters and boxes, glue the resin/pewter bitz together, primer and paint. And make scenery, objective markers, etc. Has a lot in common with GW style wargames, but also draws heavily from traditional historical wargames.

I tend to use a lot more train scenery materials when I make FOW scenery for our tables. FOW gamers (usually) are in it at least in part because of the history, and tend to try to paint their models, (on average) a bit more than a beginning GW gamer. They also take a bit more interest in the scenery used in games.

I'd say probably 95% of my FOW gamers have at some time played GW games. There's also a steady flow into Warhammer Ancients at this point.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not saying anything against GW -- they've done a lot for wargaming -- it just annoys me to hear people seem to say that GW invented or reinvented the TTWG hobby. What happened is they rode the crest of a wave of change that was already moving.

This statement fascinates me. They rode the crest of change? Horsepucky. 25 years ago they weren't any other companies offering organized miniature fantasy wargaming. Ral Partha was producing nice minis, but no rules. TSR was the major force in driving RPGs, but no minis (except as placeholders and game aids). Later came Battletech and Car Wars, but still not minature wargaming, they were cardboard. There were historical games available, but very obscure poorly supported. Most wargames used chits, not minis, except for home-grown rules for 1:72 plastics.

Warhammer was the first TTMG to start advertising in Dragon magazine, and get a toehold in North America. There really wasn't any TTMG competition until the mid 90s, when GW was releasing 3rd ed. Warhammer and 2nd ed. 40k.

So I'm not sure what crest they rode. I'm pretty confident they were the crest that made VOR and Void and Hordes and Confrontation and Infiniti worth investing in by hobby shops.

honestly the wargamming hobby has been around a very long time. Hell the germans in ww2 often played wargames, and we have evidence of the romans even doing such things. Any true gamer though can not argue that the forefathers of Modern gamming should all relate to Brig. Peter Young(I think ti was peter). All the publications he produced in the 70's really helped pave the way into wargamming hobby as we know it. That said GW has had a magor influence on a lot of fantasy wargamming, but they are by no accounts the end all be all. They are a super power in the hobby world that is for sure, especially with their accuasition of Wargames Foundry, but they wouldnt even be anywhere if it wasnt for some of the greatest mini sculptors of our generation. The perry brothers are really the true diamon in the rouf for any company.

They bought Wargames Foundry? When? Never heard of that happening.

Sorry if this sounds accusatory, but it's news to me and is meant to be a genuine sound of 'huh?'

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They bought Wargames Foundry? When? Never heard of that happening.

Sorry if this sounds accusatory, but it's news to me and is meant to be a genuine sound of 'huh?'

years ago honestly I believe it was in the earlier part of the decade. That was why the perry's formed perry miniatures since the holdings they held in foundry were sold. I know if you work for gw you get a killer discount with foundry. I used it a few times was like 65% I think. I havent worked for GW since 2006 so im not totally sure on what it was.