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JohnHwangDD wrote:Probably because nobody alerts them. Mods, while all-wise and all-powerful, aren't all-seeing. If they're not made aware, they can't act on something.

I believe that Dakka Mods have a beneficent approach and tend not to preemptively lock when they don't have to. That is, they appear to let things develop a bit. Also, as above, it takes time for someone to alert, and then time for a Mod to see the alert, and then time to review, etc.

Warseer is a very different animal. I'm sure the OP would have been banned there by now.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

It asked fair questions.

But you, Metallifan, seem to be goading this guy for daring to question GW. As I have said in other threads, we have the right as consumers of a product or indeed as potential consumers, to question and criticise. The relationship between GW and the rest of the TTMG world is a subject worthy of discussion and so far, nothing in it was rude or unpleasant, it has become so now that you've appeared to defend poor old GW from the nasty OP...

QFT

johnhwang is right in that the OP would have been banned by this point if the rest of his topics are like this one(attacking gw) for attacking gw.

metallifan would also have been banned for goading and trolling because thats what he is (in essence) doing( if you dont understand: he's trolling because he's attacking someones views on something whilst trying to make out that he's defending his ideas.0

twistinthunder wrote:
QFT

johnhwang is right in that the OP would have been banned by this point if the rest of his topics are like this one(attacking gw) for attacking gw.

metallifan would also have been banned for goading and trolling because thats what he is (in essence) doing( if you dont understand: he's trolling because he's attacking someones views on something whilst trying to make out that he's defending his ideas.0

Oh hey wait! What's this little gem?

twistinthunder wrote:i just realise

gw is a TTMG hobby so your topic is pointless and makes no sense.

Thanks for your time though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

metallifan wrote:Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started?

Nope, fourth or fifth. Lanrak has a bone to pick with GW.

I was reading some of his posts and wondering why this guy has almost 400 posts on basically a 40k forum if he hates GW so much. Certainly this troll's time would be better spent elsewhere.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Meh, I've certainly read and possibly posted worse rants at GW than that. Heck even yakface turned his nose up at their commentary in the last financial report and he's cleaner that John the Baptist.

Oh, I don't mind rants against GW at all
I just didn't like the part where he implies that you have to be emotionally flawed to like GW product.

I don't get why people ask for threads to be locked, unless there's some sort of legal problem that could cause trouble for the site owner.

As to what does GW give over and above other parts of the hobby?
Well, I like the miniatures quite a lot, and especially how many of them are plastic. I like the fact that it's so accessible and easy to find someone to play with.
Another thing I really like is the way that GW lets me do several wargaming modes within the same world- skirmish, big battle, epic, battlefleet gothic, space hulk all in the same universe. I can't think of another company that offers that level of diversity. That said, I think I'm fairly far from a GW fanboy, and I do enjoy other games too.

Honestly GWS and most of the 40k gamers are a lot more welcoming bunch than your historical TTWG ers. I'm an old timer, and I've been around both of them, and I can tell you that on the average (there being TFG's in both groups) the 40k/fantasy guys are usually more excited to bring a new gamer into the system than the Historical guys are, and are usually much much more forgiving (again both sides have outliers) when it comes to noobish knowlege mess ups.

Da Boss wrote:I don't get why people ask for threads to be locked, unless there's some sort of legal problem that could cause trouble for the site owner.

As to what does GW give over and above other parts of the hobby?
Well, I like the miniatures quite a lot, and especially how many of them are plastic. I like the fact that it's so accessible and easy to find someone to play with.
Another thing I really like is the way that GW lets me do several wargaming modes within the same world- skirmish, big battle, epic, battlefleet gothic, space hulk all in the same universe. I can't think of another company that offers that level of diversity. That said, I think I'm fairly far from a GW fanboy, and I do enjoy other games too.

people ask for threads to get locked because they get out of control or they need to be for the sake of peace on the forum.

How does text on a webpage EVER get out of control? It's not like it can set your computer on fire. If it's bugging you that much, don't read it.
As for peace on the forum, any animosity will simply be picked up in a different thread. If it's breaking forum rules or getting to the point where there is a potential legal issue, fine, but that is really really rare.

Dakka's mods are generally very relaxed. The only thing they seem to get twitchy about is thread necro, multiple and protracted personal attacks and duplicate threads. OT is a bit wierder, because the scope for discussion is wider.

While GW has it's faults it does the following things really well:

Great models
- From top to bottom they have the best minis.
- They reinvest alot of money into KAD and have some of the top sculpters in the biz.

Recruit new hobbyist
- They have great starters for new hobbyist.
- They make an big effort to get new hobbyist.
- They put themselves in high traffic consumer areas(ie malls)
- Their product is every where

Story/IP
- The background is the best out there.

The problem is other companies rely on their gamers to expand their games. The problem is most of those gamers don't want to. GW is proactive in getting their products out to the masses. Other Companies that have had some sucess in the last couple of years have followed the GW model(ie. Battlefront and PP).

I hope you were try to ask q's and get real feedback and not just having an axe to grind. Hope this helps!

Cheers

its CAD not KAD

and people generally dont start a new thread if it gets closed because the mods will just get the banhammer out.

The discussions will be continued in other threads whether people start new ones or not. And I have never seen someone get banned from dakka for something as trivial as starting a new thread to continue discussing something from a locked thread.

The wider relation between TTMG and GW is like this: It's called "Follow the Leader".

Why do you think most other companies charge prices similar to GW now?

Why do you think alot of other games have absolute garbage for rules?

Why do you think other companies subscribed to "codex creep" to sell the new stuff as "must have"?

Because they watch GW get away with it.

The biggest issue with the GW hobby is the constant us vs them arguments and name-calling that spring up (And are encouraged by the company) because people play differently.

Da Boss wrote:How does text on a webpage EVER get out of control? It's not like it can set your computer on fire. If it's bugging you that much, don't read it.

Dude that is easy for you to say. You weren't here in '34 when some loser posted some text he didn't understand from 1st edition Rogue Trader. Turned out to a Khornish summoning spell. Three hundred people had to be mind-wiped. Don't read it? Ha! Tell that to the lesser demon who is emerging from you monitor like it's some tainted womb.

Like i've stated on other threads -


A lot of us internet 40k gamers are only a small part of the game.


The casual gamer in a GW or LGS store would say the contrary - in that - GW DOES have a store dedicated to the hobby.

The fact that they run events, MAN their own stores, they DO in fact support the hobby much greater than PP or other people do.


Right?

lol.


I know what oyu mean - but there is always a reason for everything.


Just because the internet is flak and saying F' GW and alike.


You, me, and a lot of us STILL BUY GW, regardless.


And if you don't then you are just an internet junkie who likes hanging around GW sites, yet hates GW?.

hehe.

HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

GW keep giving lip service to the 'hobby'.But they seem to just be using it as leverage for profiteering.
Pre PLC days GW used to show you HOW the table top gaming hobby is a fun and creative pastime.
Post PLC days they just push product under the 'GW hobby' banner. IMO.

I appologise again for my poorly worded second post.

If you are aware of ALL the alternatives out there, and are making an informed chioce to willingly pay the price for the 'GW Hobby' .Then fair enough.

However, if you think 'GW Hobby' is the be all and end all, I urge you to look further.
If you cant be bothered , then it rather confirms my cinical outlook.

Happy gaming
Lanrak.

Hmmm. Poor support huh?

Compared to whom exactly? Privateer 'Giz your cash, take your models and knob off' Press? Rackham, who do the same, Historical Companies, who do the same.

GW run their own stores, and all are welcome in them to either start the Hobby, improve their skills, or play games.

There is a Schools League, run by GW Stores, which helps the various younger gamers to meet and play against new people. As far as I am aware, no other Games Company does this.

Has any other company supplied trained Hobbiests to show people how to play, paint, convert?

If someone is not defining their own Hobby, the fault lies with them, NOT Games Workshop. GW always have been exponents of doing your own thing. Feel a Codex is a bit too much in one area? Then tinker. Perhaps you feel the Daemonic Ward Save is a bit harsh in Fantasy, then why not allow Magical Attacks to treat Ward Saves as normal armour, thus able to reduce it? If someone is being spoonfed, it is because they are lazy.

There is very much a 'GW Hobby' because as already illustrated, the company offers everything you need for the Games, including Fiction, Tables, Skills Teaching. And this Hobby, is part of the wider Wargames Hobby. The distinction is yours, and it is bogus.

Fan expanded GW couldn't be all that tbh, at least dex's would get done

I think the way forward for GW to become a loved company instead of a grudgingly bought from as so many appear to see it as would be if they DID listen to the consumers and did better playtesting so all units in an army were considered in a list.

I see this kind of post a lot, but nobody ever seems to provide any links to these mysterious super cheap models that are as good as GW's, or to the superb rulesets that go with them.

I've also never seen anyone booted from a game, store or tournament because his models weren't stuck together with GW brand glue, so that argument doesn't hold water, either.

Vermillion wrote:Fan expanded GW couldn't be all that tbh, at least dex's would get done

I think the way forward for GW to become a loved company instead of a grudgingly bought from as so many appear to see it as would be if they DID listen to the consumers and did better playtesting so all units in an army were considered in a list.

They did listen in the past, and the result was the 3rd Edition Codecies. The ones sans background, as per the majority of the requests. You know, the one the community cried blue murder over due to the lack of background in them?

I skipped that travesty of a ruleset. Only got talked back into 40k at 4th edition which was vaguely tolerable. Still think current nerfing of characters is a good thing compared to 2nd ed but vehicles have suffered a fair bit and save modifiers is still the way I think it should have stayed :(.
Free PDF's for dex's would be the ideal, especially upon the release of a new edition. Even if it's along the lines of the army book in the 2nd ed box set, just so no army is left in too much limbo with rules changes.
As for lack of background in the dex's in 3rd ed probaby an excuse to use less pages and charge the same amount of money

THe books went from £12 each to £8 each, as per customer requests.

Essentially, when you have a large slice of the market, customer demands soon become impossible to meet. For instance, I really enjoy my casual gaming, and like to play for the spectacle. To this end, I find the allocating of attacks in Fantasy to be a bit gamey. If you want to slap my general, issue a challenge you wuss. So if I had my way, we'd have a new Challenge System which prevents attack allocation, and the answering of challenges with an expednable unit champion, leaving your nutshard dude to mash my regiment. Others wouldn't like this, and might prefer to see it made easier to allocate attacks. GW would have to make one of three decisions.

1. My Way
2. Other persons way
3. Leave it as is.

See the problem?

MDG: Privateer Press do regular FAQs and errata, listen to customers and don't dismiss any section of their playerbase. They don't have games shops, because the american model doesn't support single brand games shops, and they're an american company. Any time I've had a problem with PP models (which was rare enough) they've been exactly as good as GW.

Other ways in which their support is good is that factions do not get left for 10+ years without an update- all factions get updated at the same time. Which is far better than GW's method of leaving people hanging for years. Or how about proper playtesting? Or releasing rules for free online?
Overall, I'd rate PP's support as better than GW's, but only slightly, because the support provided by the GW shop chain is pretty good. I'll point out though- Ireland only has 2, and they're both in Dublin, so if I was living rurally, as I was when I got into wargaming, the shops would mean nothing to me.

Privateer does have the Press Gangers around, to help out, and Rackam has Sentinels. So yeah, the other companies do encourage people to learn from experienced gamers.

So, basically, I think your points against the other companies are mostly rubbish. You'd look a lot less indoctrinated if you didn't make broad, sweeping and untrue statements like that so often.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm. Poor support huh?

Compared to whom exactly?

As far as I know, both Rackham and PP have official forums where the designers post regularly to answer questions and such.

And the new version of warmachine rules was, so I understand, released to the public for playtesting and feedback for months prior to it's creation?

Seems a highly inclusive and open way to do things to me.

And a convenient and cheap way to get your playtesting done.
As opposed to, you know, not playtesting.

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

GW keep giving lip service to the 'hobby'.But they seem to just be using it as leverage for profiteering.
Pre PLC days GW used to show you HOW the table top gaming hobby is a fun and creative pastime.
Post PLC days they just push product under the 'GW hobby' banner. IMO.

I appologise again for my poorly worded second post.

If you are aware of ALL the alternatives out there, and are making an informed chioce to willingly pay the price for the 'GW Hobby' .Then fair enough.

However, if you think 'GW Hobby' is the be all and end all, I urge you to look further.
If you cant be bothered , then it rather confirms my cinical outlook.

Happy gaming
Lanrak.

If you want to talk about the "GW Hobby", there are lots of things that go into that. The hobby is different things to different people. I like to paint the models or you might like to just read the BL books or another person may not like to paint but loves to play the game. That is what makes it awesome is that there is so many layers to the "GW Hobby".

I have been playing miniature games for over 20 years and GW is my favorite. I have seen alot of companies come and go or boom then bust. GW has always been the constant. Your post should have been "Others games than GW" and you could of made a list of games you like.

As far as the price, you can buy a bunch of cheap stuff and have no one to play(waste of money in my mind) or you pay more and you have a ton of people to play against.

Cheers

GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:THe books went from £12 each to £8 each, as per customer requests.

Essentially, when you have a large slice of the market, customer demands soon become impossible to meet. For instance, I really enjoy my casual gaming, and like to play for the spectacle. To this end, I find the allocating of attacks in Fantasy to be a bit gamey. If you want to slap my general, issue a challenge you wuss. So if I had my way, we'd have a new Challenge System which prevents attack allocation, and the answering of challenges with an expednable unit champion, leaving your nutshard dude to mash my regiment. Others wouldn't like this, and might prefer to see it made easier to allocate attacks. GW would have to make one of three decisions.

1. My Way
2. Other persons way
3. Leave it as is.

See the problem?

Why there should be more playtesting see what works best overall at each type of play, from WAAC to casual drink a beer and drunkenly issue commands expecting the models to do them .

A simple process of taking on board fan suggestions could be: Team scouring through suggestion either communicated directly or through forums, devs playtest the stuff that makes sense to death eg: someone rewrites a codex for an update, balance it out. They get the playability appeal in they'll sell armies