Rumour update "Summer of Flyers"

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**chaos0xomega**

Leggy wrote:
2. This is very odd. Why make a two race kit when the vehicles aren't parallels? The only precedent I can think of for cross-race kits is the vindicator, and at least that was the same tank. From what I understand, the Void ravens natural parallel is the Phoenix (both bombers) while the Eldar Nightwing is closer to the Dark Eldar Ravenwing (from the art, their silhuette is near identical). Doing it the way the rumour describes is bizarre to me.

In this case, I give stickmonkey the benefit of the doubt. Clearly, he meant a combined Nightwing/Ravenwing kit, the Voidraven was just a slip of the keyboard.

**Savnock**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:So this is like Spearhead but with Flyers?

Looks like it.

Hope stickmonkey is 100% wrong. I want a flyers rule set that has DOGFIGHTS! And tons of new fighters! At minimum, a flyer for EVERY army. And add in Thundebolts/ Remoras/ Nightwings. Stuff that can actually dogfight and not just be a helicopter/ gunship thing.

You're talking about a separate game, really.

Fliers only have relevance to core 40K to the extent that they can do ground attack.

It would take hardly any extra rules to allow a flier to have lots of movement, be nearly immune to ground fire except for dedicated anti-aircraft guns, and dish out scathe.

That gives a reason for fliers, and an excuse to give every faction a flier model and an AA gun model. People would buy them if they were cool and/or tactically useful.

A proper dogfighting game would need a new set of rules and models, and needn't interact with 40K at all. It would probably be more interesting as a standalone game, though having written good dogfight rules you could easily do an intergration to 40K, for people who wanted to have fighters attacking ground attack planes.

I've been wrestling with a set of flyer rules for some time, and these are exactly the issues that are coming up.

A good 40K expansion wouldn't mess with the basic sequence of the game too much, and won't add too much overhead. The superheavy rules are a good example of that in play.

However, the nature of flyers, especially their speed and mobility, demands something more fast and furious than the I-go-you-go 40K setup.

I think I've found a happy medium, with flyer vs. flyer dogfights a bit like close combat (both sides struggle on each player's turn), but the rest of flyers' behavior fitting into the regular 40K flow. And to make new rules easier to remember and visualize I used the BFG orders dice. Actually, the dogfighting idea was George Spiggott's. I'm just adding to and adapting them for less-disruptive play.

That's it, I'm taking the afternoon off to get those into decent form. I'll post them here this evening (Seattle time). Then you folks can give feedback, and maybe we'll have our own set of decent flyer rules well before the summer.

KOS wrote:
BrookM wrote:Hydra cha cha cha! Thunderbolt cha cha cha! I'll have a squadron of each please when they go live!

oh boy... a squadron of Thunderbolts, that would be lovely!

It is. I have one, thanks to DeathByMonkeys' great converting skills. A squadron of Nightwings is also fun and handy to have around for Apoc, although it's a serious points-sink.

**Agamemnon2**

I'm not buying the original rumor. Really, GW must have realized their rules writing is abysmal-to-mediocre, and trying to sell an expansion they need to have kits people actually want to buy.

**Savnock**

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm not buying the original rumor. Really, GW must have realized their rules writing is abysmal-to-mediocre, and trying to sell an expansion they need to have kits people actually want to buy.

Planetstrike, anyone?

Although to be fair the bastion is a great kit, and I'd imagine that sold pretty well. But for a full rules expansion, there weren't that many models to come out for it- just terrain (iirc?). Heck, even Apoc only introduced two new kits and the vehicle command sprue. The rest was all just repackaging.

Dunno, with Valkyries/Vendettas and Stormhawks, it would only take a couple kits to make a flyers expansion viable. Thunderbolts, a DE/Eldar flyer and maybe one of those Cylo... er, Chaos Hellwhatevers would be plenty. Everyone's just going to kitbash better Ork fightas anyways and GW could probably get away with not giving the Tau or Necrons anything since most players owning those races have a second army (for, you know, WINNING the occasional game).

**Leggy**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Leggy wrote:
2. This is very odd. Why make a two race kit when the vehicles aren't parallels? The only precedent I can think of for cross-race kits is the vindicator, and at least that was the same tank. From what I understand, the Void ravens natural parallel is the Phoenix (both bombers) while the Eldar Nightwing is closer to the Dark Eldar Ravenwing (from the art, their silhuette is near identical). Doing it the way the rumour describes is bizarre to me.

In this case, I give stickmonkey the benefit of the doubt. Clearly, he meant a combined Nightwing/Ravenwing kit, the Voidraven was just a slip of the keyboard.

Perhaps. In fact, this would help it tie in with the rumours from the Dark Eldar wave 2 thread. These say the Void Raven is being released in a combined kit with "another aircraft" alongside the Venom, Scourges and Talos/Cronos kit. Most have assumed the other aircraft was the Razorwing, but if it's the Eldar Phoenix, this could work. No reliable rumourmonger has mentioned the Razorwing by name yet, iirc.

**Flashman**

So maybe an Eldar flyer with or without spikes? Whoah, those optional spikes are going to raise the price

**Savnock**

Savnock wrote:

That's it, I'm taking the afternoon off to get those into decent form. I'll post them here this evening (Seattle time). Then you folks can give feedback, and maybe we'll have our own set of decent flyer rules well before the summer.

Alright folks, here are some trial rules for 40K flyers. They're a reworked version of George Spiggott's old Dogfight rules. There's a bit still to be done (like examples of play and a summary sheet), but here's a very raw form.

There's a lot in there that I'm uncertain of too. I'll start a post in the new rules forum tomorrow and edit this post with the link for input and comments. Unlike certain large companies, I am confident that many heads will produce a better ruleset, and I'm excited to see what Dakka has to say about these.

They're attached to this post in .pdf format because I'm too short on time to cut/paste the tables into a post. Will do so presently.

UMPTEENTH EDIT: Edited the rules a lot, uploaded version 1.4. Better orders, some examples, and better tables. Almost done! Player input much appreciated, if anyone has time to look at them or even try them out.

**George Spiggott**

Looks good, much clearer and more detailed than my take on the rules.

Are you going to turn this into a Dakka article?

**Savnock**

George Spiggott wrote:Looks good, much clearer and more detailed than my take on the rules.

Are you going to turn this into a Dakka article?

Oh no, I think your examples were ace- and the whole idea was yours in the first place. My pals did point out that keeping it in the regular sequence of the game makes things smoother though, so that's the major revision.

As for an article, good idea thanks. Tomorrow! Tonight I've gotta get out the door.

**Kroothawk**

A comment/clarification by stickmonkey:

First, as I alluded to in my op, the models specifically tied to this are "codex" models...the others being available already from FW. Gw and FW have seen a much tighter integration over the past year, and it makes soo much sense to use WD and a simple "Flyer" article to market all the available kits as well as new ones. It's a synergistic strategy capitalizing on new and old model sales and support sales across all codex lines.

Second, the night wing/razor wing are not large models, they are slightly smaller than a valk, so well within existing wheelhouses, at least in terms of bulk...they may be longer, but definitely sleeker. The hydra is essentially one more sprue and a chimera. And the harpy is not much bigger than a carnifex or trygon. So saying they are going nuts with these, I repeat, "rumored" releases is a bit of a stretch.

Last, while I coined it summer of flyers, that was mostly in homage to what the spearhead article was like. Let me set the record right now that that should be the standard of the scale here. A wd semi dedicated to just 40k flyers and some special rules/missions. Anyone reading more into it and hoping for orcas in plastic and ginormous plastics thunderhawks better go have a sanity check. Heck, even Bols is now publishing articles about a "Summer of flyers". It's just a catchy reference, but it is starting to lead to a bit of overblown expectations.

**Melkhiordarkblade**

I'll get a Hellblade if it comes out.

**H.B.M.C.**

I'd love to see a plastic Harpie.

**ChrisWWII**

Plastic Hydra? I am happy now.

**chaos0xomega**

Kroothawk wrote:A comment/clarification by stickmonkey:

First, as I alluded to in my op, the models specifically tied to this are "codex" models...the others being available already from FW. Gw and FW have seen a much tighter integration over the past year, and it makes soo much sense to use WD and a simple "Flyer" article to market all the available kits as well as new ones. It's a synergistic strategy capitalizing on new and old model sales and support sales across all codex lines.

Second, the night wing/razor wing are not large models, they are slightly smaller than a valk, so well within existing wheelhouses, at least in terms of bulk...they may be longer, but definitely sleeker. The hydra is essentially one more sprue and a chimera. And the harpy is not much bigger than a carnifex or trygon. So saying they are going nuts with these, I repeat, "rumored" releases is a bit of a stretch.

Last, while I coined it summer of flyers, that was mostly in homage to what the spearhead article was like. Let me set the record right now that that should be the standard of the scale here. A wd semi dedicated to just 40k flyers and some special rules/missions. Anyone reading more into it and hoping for orcas in plastic and ginormous plastics thunderhawks better go have a sanity check. Heck, even Bols is now publishing articles about a "Summer of flyers". It's just a catchy reference, but it is starting to lead to a bit of overblown expectations.

I'm wondering if someone on warseer directed him to some of the commentary in this/other threads about him. In any case, he seems to have realized what his unchecked rumor-mongering has caused, and is taking the necessary steps to try to tone down this wild speculation. Bravo Mr. stickmonkey, bravo. I applaud your candor.

**kevlar'o**

Remora give me nine of those, oh ... how much???

......... anyone have paper plates???

**VoidAngel**

kevlar'o wrote:Remora give me nine of those, oh ... how much???

......... anyone have paper plates???

Heh, I built 9 of those out of Armored Core weapons kits and few Tau bitz. Worked out to about 43 CENTS apiece, and look better than FW's. If I do say so myself. ;-)

**Acardia**

I'd consider a harpy if it looks cool, My FA slots in my nid lists are all full sadly. Darn sexy garyoyles, winged warriors and raveners.

**wuestenfux**

A summer of flyers would be great, the more the better.

**wyomingfox**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd love to see a plastic Harpie.

I just hope they don't make it ridiculously huge or put it in an inconvenient pose that makes it difficult to get a cover save (or more difficult, seeing as it will be on some kind of flying stand regardless). We don't need another Trygon-esq model.

**agnosto**

They're really missing an opportunity by shooting every other army the bird. I'm not a strong enough hobbyist to correct bent remora barrels or other FW inconsistencies; nor am I willing to pay FW prices.

**DarthSpader**

Perhaps that's what "summer of fliers" is. GW giving everyone the big fat bird.

"you want summer of fliers, how about summer of flying prices?"

**kevlar'o**

DarthSpader wrote:Perhaps that's what "summer of fliers" is. GW giving everyone the big fat bird.

"you want summer of fliers, how about summer of flying prices?"

Oh Snap!!!

**agnosto**

DarthSpader wrote:Perhaps that's what "summer of fliers" is. GW giving everyone the big fat bird.

"you want summer of fliers, how about summer of flying prices?"

More like fly like a lead balloon, this and the army showcase thing they're advertising now.

GW Management: Hey guys, I've got it; let's create micro-releases that only do something nice for 1 to 3 armies, people will love it. You know, instead of doing something for every army and selling a great deal more merchandise, we don't want that now do we?
GW Sycophant: Fantastic idea! I've got another great idea! Let's make a big deal about allowing people to "showcase" their armies. Maybe they'll run out and buy all new models like a teenage girl on her first date buys a whole new wardrobe.
GW Management: I'm glad we're so smart. Let's hold hands!

It's becoming painfully obvious that GW will only support Space Marines, IG and whatever flavor of the quarter army they've got.....though it is nice that they're probably going to throw Tyranids a bone.

**gorgon**

GW producing a Harpy kit before a Tervigon kit makes ZERO sense to me. Which might mean that's exactly what they're doing...it just doesn't make sense.

**VoidAngel**

gorgon wrote:GW producing a Harpy kit before a Tervigon kit makes ZERO sense to me. Which might mean that's exactly what they're doing...it just doesn't make sense.

With my cynicism helm turned to maximum, I'd guess it's because a) the ability of thralls..er..'customers' ...to visualize and therefore convert a Harpy is pretty high*; b) the inverse is true of a Tervigon. It's totally new, whereas there are plenty of winged Tyranids - and those pictures in the codex are terrible for the Tervigon and the Tyrannofex. Most conversions look like a carnifex with giant...um...lady bitz.

*case in point: 1) trygon kit + Ultraforge Great War Demon wings (sold separately, even!) + a head spike made of a big nid forelimb + some bio cannon bitz = finished harpy. My tervigon was much more difficult, and looks like a carnifex and giant squid had congress. It's monstery, and looks better than the pic in the codex *and* the aforementioned other attempts I've seen - but it doesn't look "GW".

**nels1031**

gorgon wrote:GW producing a Harpy kit before a Tervigon kit makes ZERO sense to me. Which might mean that's exactly what they're doing...it just doesn't make sense.

There was a Tyranid Wave 2 thread that kroothawk posted here that had early rumors of a Tervigon kit and some other tyranid stuff coming in the summer. Whether this flier expansion pushes it back or not, remains to be seen.

**Kilkrazy**

Surely most Tyranid players have already made Tervigons from other parts?

I suppose an official Tervigon release would pull in some new players, or replace some of the homemade models.

**shrike**

Kilkrazy wrote:Surely most Tyranid players have already made Tervigons from other parts?

I suppose an official Tervigon release would pull in some new players, or replace some of the homemade models.

looking at the artwork, it's obviously a carnife with more talons instead of legs that has little babies. I reckon GW should do what chapterhouse did- a conversion kit. The two kits would be too similar. But then, since CH did one first...

**Nagashek**

VoidAngel wrote:
...looks like a carnifex and giant squid had congress.

"There are Tyranids in Congress?"

While I don't want the remora to be our ONLY flyer, I wouldn't mind it being our support flyer. Though honestly if I'm getting a flyer I'd prefer a tigershark, as it seems more apt for an attack role, which is what you'd want on the 40k battlefield. A fighter is better for AtA fighting, not AtS, which the Tigershark is better equipped for.

That said: if GW made an Orca kit, I would buy three for my Hunter Cadre.

Three.

And, to beat a dead horse, one wonders why GW doesn't just offer a photo shopped pic on the back of the January WD with three different flyers and explosions and stuff, and at the bottom it says "July."

Then the next month they start talking about O+G or something. They could have WD littered with easter eggs for people to find that offer hints on what's to come. Instead? The jump out of the bushes the month before a release and say "HEY! Here's something new!" If they'd told me a few months ahead of time, I could have saved money from my non-GW hobbies and spent $300 in one day on the FotM. But no. Instead they keep the tightest possible lid on EVERYTHING until it's been released. Can you imagine if the video game community did this? How much money would game companies make if there was no CES or E3? :sigh:

**Sidstyler**

Well, I don't know about you guys, but hearing about games coming out ahead of time makes me not want to buy them when they're released. I was so excited for Deus Ex 3 when I had no idea it was coming out, and then when the trailer was shown at E3 my excitement instantly died and now I couldn't care less. Definitely haven't had it on my Steam wishlist for months and definitely won't be buying it when it officially comes out. Not at all.

I mean that's the only reason the stormraven is so unpopular after all, because it was leaked too soon. If no one had seen any pictures of it until it was in White Dwarf everyone would have looooved it!