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Wishful thinking?

I hope that we get options for cultists, real daemons and actual rules for the Traitors (and the maybe not so traitorous Traitors too!).

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace is, in my opinion, terrible.

The man brought back hot-shot lasguns, created the Vendetta Valkyrie variant(WHY?! WHY DID YOU DO THIS? Just use the freaking Vulture!), and removed lasguns from sergeants.

I hates him. I hates him much.

On the other hand, he also released a book with lots of characterful options and a variety of effective builds. Oversights on Veteran and Mech Spam notwithstanding, the Guard book is actually pretty well designed, especially when you account for the sheer volume of units/options found therein.

Sorry, not trying to pull this off topic, but I just wanted to point out that having Cruddance write a Codex isn't a bad thing. Given the amount of content that he had to juggle with the Imperial Guard book, he might actually be the right choice to write a book that's as diverse as a proper Legions Codex would be.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace is, in my opinion, terrible.

The man brought back hot-shot lasguns, created the Vendetta Valkyrie variant(WHY?! WHY DID YOU DO THIS? Just use the freaking Vulture!), and removed lasguns from sergeants.

I hates him. I hates him much.

On the other hand, he also released a book with lots of characterful options and a variety of effective builds. Oversights on Veteran and Mech Spam notwithstanding, the Guard book is actually pretty well designed, especially when you account for the sheer volume of units/options found therein.

Meh. It's got a lot of units sure, but when the "sheer volume of units/options found therein" is countered by "If you want to be effective, throw out half the options available to you" that point becomes kind of moot.

That's not what I want to see if/when Legions is released. As much as people dislike Ward's fluff, he and Kelly at least understand the idea of 'all options should be effective, and while one thing can be superior to another in one role--balance can be maintained by doing it in such a way that it's not so completely overshadowing the other option that it's silly.'

I'm just hoping I can use all my Daemons and all my Black Legion in the same army with this book (no generics). Also looking forward to 1000 points of each Legion to add to what I have, all I have been waiting for is a new book... I have remained firm with Black Legion (no cult troops) hoping to have something to define my army expansion better than the current book allows.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:as long as my iron warriors get all the nice imperial guard artillery and thudd guns i'll be happy

Like Lost and the Damned... the game developers at GW will never respect or appreciate armies that become so dependent on a unit from another army for their thematic center. That said, if Iron Warriors have an artillery piece it really should be something more unique.

The Chaos codex suffers from being just a spiky version of the loyalists. They are a concept bigger then the loyalist codex, but represented by a codex less distinct and distinguished than the variant loyalist codices. For the longest time daemons were the main distinguishing units... yes we have the "big 4" god specific units... but they're just a different flavor of uber-marine by a different name and only go to distinguish them as a marine army and not as a distinct army. Chaos is more than that and its certainly more than the defficient units where it seemingly costs extra points for rules that hurt more often than they help.

I'm looking forward to any codex willing to do more with Chaos. That said I want to see the new Chaos codex bring out the distinctive flavors of Chaos emphasizing all the stuff that isn't similar to what's in another codex.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:as long as my iron warriors get all the nice imperial guard artillery and thudd guns i'll be happy

If we want a balanced book I can't see Iron Warriors gaining access to IG artillery. Think about it, what would the IG dex be like if you could take CSMs instead of IG Vets? Way Overpowered. Survivable, powerful, well rounded Troops choice and incredibly powerful artillery would be too much I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:as long as my iron warriors get all the nice imperial guard artillery and thudd guns i'll be happy

Like Lost and the Damned... the game developers at GW will never respect or appreciate armies that become so dependent on a unit from another army for their thematic center. That said, if Iron Warriors have an artillery piece it really should be something more unique.

The Chaos codex suffers from being just a spiky version of the loyalists. They are a concept bigger then the loyalist codex, but represented by a codex less distinct and distinguished than the variant loyalist codices. For the longest time daemons were the main distinguishing units... yes we have the "big 4" god specific units... but they're just a different flavor of uber-marine by a different name and only go to distinguish them as a marine army and not as a distinct army. Chaos is more than that and its certainly more than the defficient units where it seemingly costs extra points for rules that hurt more often than they help.

I'm looking forward to any codex willing to do more with Chaos. That said I want to see the new Chaos codex bring out the distinctive flavors of Chaos emphasizing all the stuff that isn't similar to what's in another codex.

The super heavies the Lion gave to Perturabo at the end of the second HH DA book would be awesome for Iron Warriors, but again, that would make them way too OP. Unless the other 6th ed rumor I heard is true and we get Super Heavies as a 0-1 on the Force Org and the plastic Warhound Titan...


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SkaerKrow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace is, in my opinion, terrible.

The man brought back hot-shot lasguns, created the Vendetta Valkyrie variant(WHY?! WHY DID YOU DO THIS? Just use the freaking Vulture!), and removed lasguns from sergeants.

I hates him. I hates him much.

On the other hand, he also released a book with lots of characterful options and a variety of effective builds. Oversights on Veteran and Mech Spam notwithstanding, the Guard book is actually pretty well designed, especially when you account for the sheer volume of units/options found therein.

Sorry, not trying to pull this off topic, but I just wanted to point out that having Cruddance write a Codex isn't a bad thing. Given the amount of content that he had to juggle with the Imperial Guard book, he might actually be the right choice to write a book that's as diverse as a proper Legions Codex would be.

I have to disagree here. While he did a good job handling the diverse units for IG he completely took out the actual diversity of the Imperial Guard. There is no point in playing Vostroyan, Vallhallans, Mordians, Catachans, Tallarns etc. They are all just Cadians. I don't want a Chaos Legions book with everyone being Black Legion but you can take a character who makes your list sort of like one of the Legions, in a minimal way. That's what the current book is.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace is, in my opinion, terrible.

The man brought back hot-shot lasguns, created the Vendetta Valkyrie variant(WHY?! WHY DID YOU DO THIS? Just use the freaking Vulture!), and removed lasguns from sergeants.

I hates him. I hates him much.

On the other hand, he also released a book with lots of characterful options and a variety of effective builds. Oversights on Veteran and Mech Spam notwithstanding, the Guard book is actually pretty well designed, especially when you account for the sheer volume of units/options found therein.

Sorry, not trying to pull this off topic, but I just wanted to point out that having Cruddance write a Codex isn't a bad thing. Given the amount of content that he had to juggle with the Imperial Guard book, he might actually be the right choice to write a book that's as diverse as a proper Legions Codex would be.

The problem is there's a ton of stinkers. Almost the entire elites section, most Leman Russ variants, the Death strike, sentinels, penal troopers, Yarrick, etc.

I'm really glad Chaos players seem to be getting the Legion dex they've always wanted, that current Dex is a pile.

I still can't help but get a tiny bit depressed every time I hear of more Marines getting released , even if they are the evil angry Marines. Especially when my Sisters seem to be getting a half @ss deal and the Tau are, well... maybe an early 6th Dex will be better than a late 5th Dex.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I have to disagree here. While he did a good job handling the diverse units for IG he completely took out the actual diversity of the Imperial Guard.

I think it's just lack of oversight. A game like that should be made by a team of people, all of them with a deep understanding of how the core rules and specific army books work, not by individuals given projects in a completely random manner. At the very least the position of Overlord should be reinstated so that there's someone who could look over the designer's shoulder and ask questions like "oi, how is that supposed to work against Dark Eldar?" or "what the hell are you smoking?"

Chaos players seem to be getting the Legion dex they've always wanted

It's amazing how much credence one regurgitated rumor copied by the same person who always does that kind of thing with absolutely no substantiating information is already receiving this far out. Remember, until a week ago everyone thought Necrons were being released in August and that's less than 2 weeks away. How is that one working out? Seriously.

Awsome. I was down south at a Con in LA. An aquaintance there who knows people passed this same info along. He said that they have been working towards this for a while. I had hoped that it was more than a rumore. we shall all see in the end.

And as a side note. Cruddace is a crapy writter. what he did to the nids codex is inexusable. what a waste of skin that pathetic piece of grox dung he is. PLEASE dont let him touch the chaos dex or any other dex except eldar .

BrassScorpion wrote: Remember, until a week ago everyone thought Necrons were being released in August and that's less than 2 weeks away.

Well, my rumour roundup says November for more than a month.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I have to disagree here. While he did a good job handling the diverse units for IG he completely took out the actual diversity of the Imperial Guard. There is no point in playing Vostroyan, Vallhallans, Mordians, Catachans, Tallarns etc. They are all just Cadians. I don't want a Chaos Legions book with everyone being Black Legion but you can take a character who makes your list sort of like one of the Legions, in a minimal way. That's what the current book is.

I see what you're saying here, but to be fair, has Games Workshop ever done a good job of differentiating the various Imperial Guard regiments? The MO of the Guard mostly seems to be "no matter what world you come from, you're in the Imperial Guard now, and this is how we do things..." Your specializations are largely dictated by what cross-section of units that you take from all of the options available to you.

As for the IG book being loaded with bad units, that I disagree with. There are plenty of options in the book that are viable and competitive, that people haven't tried because it's easier to load up with MechVets or Vendettas and blast your way to victory. Considering how much people gripe about both of those things, I would wager to say that the IG codex has a bigger problem with a couple of top end options than it does with a wealth of low tier ones.

I don't want to threadjack this into a Guard discussion, so I'm going to leave this point be. Feel free to disagree with me, though.

SkaerKrow wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:I have to disagree here. While he did a good job handling the diverse units for IG he completely took out the actual diversity of the Imperial Guard. There is no point in playing Vostroyan, Vallhallans, Mordians, Catachans, Tallarns etc. They are all just Cadians. I don't want a Chaos Legions book with everyone being Black Legion but you can take a character who makes your list sort of like one of the Legions, in a minimal way. That's what the current book is.

I see what you're saying here, but to be fair, has Games Workshop ever done a good job of differentiating the various Imperial Guard regiments? The MO of the Guard mostly seems to be "no matter what world you come from, you're in the Imperial Guard now, and this is how we do things..." Your specializations are largely dictated by what cross-section of units that you take from all of the options available to you.

As for the IG book being loaded with bad units, that I disagree with. There are plenty of options in the book that are viable and competitive, that people haven't tried because it's easier to load up with MechVets or Vendettas and blast your way to victory. Considering how much people gripe about both of those things, I would wager to say that the IG codex has a bigger problem with a couple of top end options than it does with a wealth of low tier ones.

I don't want to threadjack this into a Guard discussion, so I'm going to leave this point be. Feel free to disagree with me, though.

I disagree with every point you made. I am reasonably sure Kelly or Ward could have found a way to differentiate at least a few of the major IG persuasions. This partially ties in with the second point you make, which I also dispute. At least 1/2 the choices in any part of the FOC are significantly lower in effectiveness then the other 1/2. Besides, arguing "a couple of top end options" fails to address that IG is reasonably competitive only spamming those options, and if you take a significant portion of non top tier options, your army will not be competitive. How is that the fault of the good units and not the fault of the bad units? Should it just be a bad codex?
Instead of garbage like Vet doctrines and Penal Legionaire random rules and useless conscripts, how much better would it have been to have those recognize Catachan/Valhallan/Tallarn/Elysians, etc. specialization in certain areas. FFS, one of the upgrade characters in the book even makes his unit worse... horrible internal balance.

Anyway, sorry for sidetrack but I wanted to respond to Cruddance having given diversity to the IG codex; that is blatantly false imo.


Legion Codex sounds exciting, but I will believe it when we see it. I hope for my Chaos playing friends that it is true though, as the current chaos codex is really limited and bland (not uncompetitive, but bland).

I can but pray to the Dark Gods of Chaos.

I also don't mind who does the book, Phil Kelly would be my ideal choice, then Ward.

I can just about live with some bad fluff, but I can't live with units that are so belittled and useless compared to their newer cousins, or other options in the list, it isn't even funny.

darkPrince010 wrote:Tau? What about Tau? Any new codex for the Tau?... Tau?.... Tau?TAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUU....

Forever a drone...

haha that was funny (:

I never really got into chaos guard i guess n my mind chaos belongs with the space marines it only makes sense, unless chaos expands itself (again), next will be chaos tau, chaos SOB hell whos to say chaos wont corrupt grey knights, im personally waiting for chaos orks :\

Ah well i suppose chaos cant stay space marine forever

My Black Legion force would love to see the table again........but will I still be able to field those Khorne Berzerkers that I painted in Black and Gold? It's really a crap shoot at this point.

I agree with others that say it is an exciting thing to hear about a Legions Codex but I am very skeptical. Guess we'll have to wait until March.

ChaosxVoid wrote: I never really got into chaos guard i guess n my mind chaos belongs with the space marines it only makes sense, unless chaos expands itself (again), next will be chaos tau, chaos SOB hell whos to say chaos wont corrupt grey knights, im personally waiting for chaos orks :\

Ah well i suppose chaos cant stay space marine forever

Because surely, normal humans would have more resistance to the corrupting influence of chaos than a genetically altered, mentally conditioned super soldier?

I can see what you're saying about the other entires, though. I've seen people make some sweet Chaos Sisters models, but I don't think any of them need to be represented in a codex. Tau could fall to Chaos, but see above. Orks... well, Khorne would be the only deity that would make sense, and fighting is what the Orks already do, so that would be kind of silly.

I have noticed a lack of Legion models on GW's website, so I could certainly see some validity to this rumor. Lord knows that Chaos could certainly stand to get some personality again!

Noisy_Marine wrote:

MadCowCrazy wrote:Hmm, so what happened to the Tau we have been hearing about? What of a proper release for the Sisters?

Silly Tau, new books are for marines.

Thred Winner right here

$pider wrote:I agree with others that say it is an exciting thing to hear about a Legions Codex but I am very skeptical. Guess we'll have to wait until March.

I just hope that they're actually getting this new Codex. I'm a bit dubious on the validity of this rumor at the moment, but it's one of those few wishlisty type things that would actually be good for the game, in my opinion.

Here's a Q+A with Jervis Johnson from early 2008:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5076

It mentions that they wanted to do Chaos Legions, and that they were (at the time) a long way out. "If we're going to do it we're going to do it right" so that lends at least a little credence to this rumor, even though it was three and a half years ago. I wouldn't rule it out, but it seems like it's always been more or less a pie in the sky idea. Considering he was absolutely silent on the Necron front and really enthusiastic on IG, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar, he knew at least a few things that were in the tubes.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I can but pray to the Dark Gods of Chaos.

I also don't mind who does the book, Phil Kelly would be my ideal choice, then Ward.

I can just about live with some bad fluff, but I can't live with units that are so belittled and useless compared to their newer cousins, or other options in the list, it isn't even funny.

i agree

I think one thing we don't know is exactly how each creative brief dictates the designer's work. Was it really Cruddace's decision to do away with regiment differentiation, or was that a marching order he was given? Without knowing his design parameters, it's hard to fully judge his work, or indeed the work of any particular designer in isolation.

And bringing this more on topic, I used to be critical of Gav for the current CSM codex until I was told by someone much more knowledgeable than me that he wasn't to blame for the overall approach in that book. He did what he was told. Clearly execution is an important part of this too, and a gifted creative individual can sometimes make lemonade out of a lemon of a creative brief. And getting the albatross hung around your neck is probably the price you pay for getting your name on the book. Still, it probably isn't 100% fair or accurate, especially at times in which we've seen large shifts in design philosophy.

The thing that gives me hope about the future is that the studio seems to be either more willing or more able to explore old and new ideas now. An example is Jokaero being a playable unit for the first time since RT. I could be wrong, but it sure seems like Jokaero in a codex would have been a non-starter at the studio even just five years ago.

gorgon wrote:The thing that gives me hope about the future is that the studio seems to be either more willing or more able to explore old and new ideas now. An example is Jokaero being a playable unit for the first time since RT. I could be wrong, but it sure seems like Jokaero in a codex would have been a non-starter at the studio even just five years ago.

This has been going on subtly since the Ork codex with the return of the Shokk Attack Gun. The Conversion Beamer and Thunderfire Cannon (really just a Thudd Gun) in the Marine codex, Griffon in the IG codex, and the aforementioned Jokearo are a cool trend.

Brother SRM wrote:

gorgon wrote:The thing that gives me hope about the future is that the studio seems to be either more willing or more able to explore old and new ideas now. An example is Jokaero being a playable unit for the first time since RT. I could be wrong, but it sure seems like Jokaero in a codex would have been a non-starter at the studio even just five years ago.

This has been going on subtly since the Ork codex with the return of the Shokk Attack Gun. The Conversion Beamer and Thunderfire Cannon (really just a Thudd Gun) in the Marine codex, Griffon in the IG codex, and the aforementioned Jokearo are a cool trend.

To be fair, the Griffon never left the background of the Imperial Guard(or if you had IA1...fieldability) like the Conversion Beamer or Thudd Gun did.

Jokaero are kind of in the same boat as the SAG and Griffon in that they may not have been generally fieldable, but they weren't completely ignored. Jokaero were mentioned a few times, notably in Daemonhunters about being renowned for their manufacture of digital weapons.

gorgon wrote:I think one thing we don't know is exactly how each creative brief dictates the designer's work. Was it really Cruddace's decision to do away with regiment differentiation, or was that a marching order he was given? Without knowing his design parameters, it's hard to fully judge his work, or indeed the work of any particular designer in isolation.

And bringing this more on topic, I used to be critical of Gav for the current CSM codex until I was told by someone much more knowledgeable than me that he wasn't to blame for the overall approach in that book. He did what he was told. Clearly execution is an important part of this too, and a gifted creative individual can sometimes make lemonade out of a lemon of a creative brief. And getting the albatross hung around your neck is probably the price you pay for getting your name on the book. Still, it probably isn't 100% fair or accurate, especially at times in which we've seen large shifts in design philosophy.

The thing that gives me hope about the future is that the studio seems to be either more willing or more able to explore old and new ideas now. An example is Jokaero being a playable unit for the first time since RT. I could be wrong, but it sure seems like Jokaero in a codex would have been a non-starter at the studio even just five years ago.

While I absolutely agree with the sentiment that outside pressures can destroy an otherwise brilliant designers work (my Girlfriend is a Graphic Designer so I have her experiences to draw from), I also have to put it into the context of both the other designers work, as well as the fact that Cruddance screwed up the Nid codex even more then the IG codex, and I just can't really support his work at all.
Agreed about the willingness to bring back oddball units/weapons. Shows they are really starting to wake up from the 3rd/4th doldrums.

I am actually pretty aprhensive about the Chaos Legions as they may be to undefined at the moment. Meaning that no matter what GW does or who writes it they are not going to get it correct at all.

For example how would anyone make Alpha Legion clearly distinct from the Night Lords? Icongraphy, cultists, and fast attack choices? Really GW has a big shoe to fill that was perpetrated by themselves.

Is Gw going to come out with a new units for every legion?

Lots of questions and it will be interesting to see what actually occurs in the next few years.

Magister187 wrote:
I also have to put it into the context of both the other designers work, as well as the fact that Cruddance screwed up the Nid codex even more then the IG codex, and I just can't really support his work at all.
Agreed about the willingness to bring back oddball units/weapons. Shows they are really starting to wake up from the 3rd/4th doldrums.

I don't understand why people think Cruddace (Not Cruddance, I have no idea why people get this wrong) screwed up the Imperial Guard. The codex is fantastic, characterful, and well written. It has some obvious builds and Vendettas are undercosted, but I have no other issues with it. A buddy of mine who has been playing Guard since early 4th ed adores it. The orders system is innovative and cool, and the amount of options in the book are staggering. Yes, you can build a mechvet melta spam army, but people will do heavy/special weapon spam regardless of what codex they use. I'll agree he scrwed up the Tyranid codex in a lot of ways, many of which would be fixed by proofreading. There's this whole reserves mechanic that should have been fleshed out but was abandoned, leaving lots of loose ends. The codex isn't irredeemable like the Dark Angels codex or anything though.

BrassScorpion wrote:Remember, until a week ago everyone thought Necrons were being released in August and that's less than 2 weeks away. How is that one working out?

Well we wouldn't know with the whole black out and so on. GW could be on the cusp of the biggest shake-up in their entire history, but we won't know about it until a week before because they're afraid of *makes mumbling noises*. And they and we don't want that!

Although I am a fluff man myself, I have to agree with people saying that the rules section of a codex is the most important. Fluff can be expanded on or otherwise fixed by the FW IA books, BL novels or even the players themselves. On the other hand, the rules can't, as most tournaments only allow standard codexes and not anything else, so you are stuck with what you get for another four years or so.