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Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why people think Cruddace (Not Cruddance, I have no idea why people get this wrong) screwed up the Imperial Guard. The codex is fantastic, characterful, and well written.

It's dull, and killed my interest in Guard for about a year. I bought so much of the new Guard stuff when it hit, including the Codex... and the Codex itself was enough to make me lose all interest in the Guard. And this is me, the guy who would dispense Guard information to everyone, wrote long tactica articles and received PM's all the time from members asking for IG advice. I went from being the most enthusiastic Guard player here to utterly disillusions with them in less than 200 pages.

All the current Guard Codex is good at is sending you to sleep. Arby (which is easier to type than both Cruddace and Cruddance) created a book that changed virtually every rule in the entire book, and replaced it with a stale one-note army list filled with all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't work (random ability Penal troopers), pointless units that just fill up space (half the Russ variants) or stuff that simple should not be in standard 40K (Deathstrikes). And then he went and added the Vendetta, which had to have been added at the last minute given the kit includes no parts for it.

I don't blame Arby completely, just like I don't blame Gav for what happened to the Daemons in the current 'Chaos' Codex. He was no doubt getting his orders from a higher source ("Everyone owns three Sanctioned Psykers, so to increase sales you're going to make them a unit of 10!", "We're getting rid of the hybrid Hellhound kit - make rules for different versions so there's a reason for people who already own Hellhounds to buy MOAR!!!!", "Make it so you can have big blocks of Guard infantry in one unit, and then we'll reduce the contents of the infantry box and in a year we'll be charging the same amount for 10 as we did for 20! Ahahaha! We're geniuses!"), but that doesn't stop the Codex from being dull and just... grey.

The Doctrine system of the previous Codex was a joke - it didn't work as intended and was open to abuse (not as much as the Trait system, but it's still pretty similar) - but at least your army could have character beyond MechVets.

ChaosxVoid wrote: im personally waiting for chaos orks :\

You're a bit late to the party. Stormboys worshiped Khorne in Rogue Trader.

Brother SRM wrote:

Magister187 wrote:
I also have to put it into the context of both the other designers work, as well as the fact that Cruddance screwed up the Nid codex even more then the IG codex, and I just can't really support his work at all.
Agreed about the willingness to bring back oddball units/weapons. Shows they are really starting to wake up from the 3rd/4th doldrums.

I don't understand why people think Cruddace (Not Cruddance, I have no idea why people get this wrong) screwed up the Imperial Guard. The codex is fantastic, characterful, and well written. It has some obvious builds and Vendettas are undercosted, but I have no other issues with it. A buddy of mine who has been playing Guard since early 4th ed adores it. The orders system is innovative and cool, and the amount of options in the book are staggering. Yes, you can build a mechvet melta spam army, but people will do heavy/special weapon spam regardless of what codex they use. I'll agree he scrwed up the Tyranid codex in a lot of ways, many of which would be fixed by proofreading. There's this whole reserves mechanic that should have been fleshed out but was abandoned, leaving lots of loose ends. The codex isn't irredeemable like the Dark Angels codex or anything though.

Sorry, for the misspelling, just a muscle memory thing. I will agree it is well written, but I don't think its characterful at all and I have big issues with its internal balance. As I mentioned, 1/2 the units in the codex (in EVERY FOC slot) are completely overshadowed by another entry, even at the role they are supposed to fill. I would say the HS slot may be the sole one where more then half the choices are worth taking (and that is being nice to the Griffon and Medusa). As for characterful, besides the orders system (which still leaves some serious holes, most notably reliability with most of the units you really want to use them with), the special characters seem uninspired and poorly balanced, there is almost no thought towards specializing an army in a meaningful way (no rules for any unique planet, or units, besides a smattering of underpowered characters who at best give you one differentiated unit )and almost every unit ends up so bland and spammy (due again, to the inconsistent power balance across the codex) that the only thing that feels "Imperial Guard" to me is the large amount of tanks or guys that you can field (very rarely both nowadays).
It is not a terrible codex, but it is not the kind of codex I would like to see become standard. 1-2 best in slot choices in each FOC section and rubbish the rest of the way.

Pael wrote:For example how would anyone make Alpha Legion clearly distinct from the Night Lords?

Alpha Legion get Infiltration, Night Lords get Scout

Put Flashman on the design team now

Im just hoping for cool new thousand son models (of corse after the codex has been sorted out) I loved the old dex with the different "Books of chaos" in it..... back when demon princes were something to fear and a HQ choice.....

Mantle wrote:Im just hoping for cool new thousand son models (of corse after the codex has been sorted out) I loved the old dex with the different "Books of chaos" in it..... back when demon princes were something to fear and a HQ choice.....

Yeah... the current Daemon Prince rules don't allow for custom setups at all, just different psychic powers. Definitely doesn't encourage conversions of the minis either.

Daemon Princes can't even get Daemon Weapons. WTF is up with that?

Thanks H.M.B.C. that's exactly what I was talking about.

And the current ‘Chaos’ Codex also took away the ability for characters to take Daemonic Gifts. Daemonic Gifts have been part of Chaos since the Realms of Chaos book... and this one took that away. Spikey Loyalists indeed...



Oh, and one of these days I'm gonna catch that rascally H.M.B.C. and tell him to stop taking credit for my posts!

H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh, and one of these days I'm gonna catch that rascally H.M.B.C. and tell him to stop taking credit for my posts!

Sorry about that H.B.M.C. I guess my dyslexia was kicking in a little there....

Back on topic... If they make the next CSM Codex more like the v3.5 one, I'll be quite happy. The current codex is useable.... but gutted.

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:Sorry about that H.B.M.C. I guess my dyslexia was kicking in a little there....

It’s no problem. Everyone does it, which is why I make a joke out it, pretending that H.M.B.C. is this wily doppelganger whom I can never catch.

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:Back on topic... If they make the next CSM Codex more like the v3.5 one, I'll be quite happy. The current codex is useable.... but gutted.

The 3.5 Codex, also known as the real Chaos Codex, was a sort of a gaming renaissance wake up call for me, as it’s what got me back into 40K after a lengthy hiatus. To see it taken and trashed and torn down to such a degree with the current ‘Chaos’ Codex was horrific, and my multiple Chaos armies (World Eaters, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors) were just as devastated. :’(

I was even so incensed by it, that I put this together, which you might find amusing.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Meh.

If there really is a Chaos Legions book I reserve judgement until I see it. GW has a lot to make up for.

THIS. I also wont ger excited over a new edition until I see some rules, and some significant rules changes at that.

What sounds the alarm bells for me is if it's rumoured time frame is correct, that it's another chaos dex in whatever format that'll straddle editions, and we all know how well edition straddling codex/army books do!

:(

Orks?

Pael wrote:I am actually pretty apprehensive about the Chaos Legions as they may be to undefined at the moment. Meaning that no matter what GW does or who writes it they are not going to get it correct at all.

For example how would anyone make Alpha Legion clearly distinct from the Night Lords? Icongraphy, cultists, and fast attack choices? Really GW has a big shoe to fill that was perpetrated by themselves.

I agree with your sentiment it is a bit of a double edged sword... but on the other side by divorcing the renegade marines from the chaos legions they have the opportunity to be more thematic and characterful.

What ever the course GW chooses it needs to be one that visibly distinguishes Chaos... bringing more visual organic elements back into the army... emphasizing the daemonic weapons and vessels the legions have made are perfect examples of that. As to distinguishing between the legions represented in the codex... given the way codices are trending the books would likely be filled with new units, with legion preference allowing greater access or scoring ability. Visually I doubt GW will do anything to distinguish Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers.

I'm interested in the implications on the Renegade codex... will they be losing special characters or will this codex have all new ones? or will the characters exist in parallel in both codices? I hope they take the fluff-ish approach and only carry over the characters that make sense to this codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And the current ‘Chaos’ Codex also took away the ability for characters to take Daemonic Gifts. Daemonic Gifts have been part of Chaos since the Realms of Chaos book... and this one took that away. Spikey Loyalists indeed...

...I've even seen people mistake a Chaos Army for a loyalist one, just because it had no daemon prince, obliterators, possessed, or Defiler. If someone doesn't field these or any of the generic daemons people really can't tell its a chaos army till they prick their fingers on something. For me that's the greater shame. I might forgive weak rules if the models were distinctively awesome, but they aren't. The last few editions, Chaos is the army they let the new guys sculpt... we got daemon prince and chaos spawn... GW just has no heart for chaos and has done every aspect of them half halfheartedly. They've had every opportunity to update the Chaos Dreadnought in the mean time loyalist have had 3 or 4 distinct kits... We don't even really have our own tank kit... blood angels and sisters of battle have more to toss on to their vehicles to distinguish them than these guys who desecrate everything... Don't get me wrong its fine to share the rhino, but for the sake of distinction it makes those add-on bits that much more important.

I don't know what to think about this. I'm just started to get back INTO the game and I've JUST started a Chaos army.
I don't want to build an army only to have to chuck it out because some dudes said I can't use my army any more D:

Does anyone any advice what I should do :x? Should I just take this at a pinch and carry on doing my own thing regardless? Or should I start being careful about what I buy?

Not to mention, Mythos, the way people use the Space Wolf, Blood Angel and even the Grey Knight Codex to represent Chaos Legions. I hate the Grey Knight Codex, but it makes a better Alpha Legion army than the current ‘Chaos’ Codex ever could.


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MittinsKittens wrote:Does anyone any advice what I should do :x? Should I just take this at a pinch and carry on doing my own thing regardless? Or should I start being careful about what I buy?

At the end of the day Chaos is still Chaos* (from a modelling perspective at least). So your models will be safe, you’ll probably just have to re-jig them slightly if/when the new book comes out. I can’t imagine them taking Cult Troops away from ‘Renegade Marine’ players, even if they required a Leader with a specific Mark (or, worse, a Special fething Character), so the things you have won’t suddenly become invalidated.


*Unless you played Lost & The Damned, that is...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not to mention, Mythos, the way people use the Space Wolf, Blood Angel and even the Grey Knight Codex to represent Chaos Legions. I hate the Grey Knight Codex, but it makes a better Alpha Legion army than the current ‘Chaos’ Codex ever could.

Really sad when the closest thing to representing Chaos are what are suppose to be the most pure of the Imperium. I almost think it would have been less dishonest if they had done Chaos as one of the old add-on mini-codex of 3rd edition, but for these current codices. "Oh you want to play Khorne, you need this plus Blood Angels." I got so tired of seeing people playing that I converted up a corrupt band of legion era Blood Angels to use as Khorne Bezerkers...

H.B.M.C. wrote:
*Unless you played Lost & The Damned, that is...

I did.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why people think Cruddace (Not Cruddance, I have no idea why people get this wrong) screwed up the Imperial Guard.

This is a pass along insult:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cruddance

Kroothawk wrote:
This is a pass along insult:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cruddance

Huh. I had no idea. I still don't think most people who type it have that in mind though.

Those who started it, had.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I was even so incensed by it, that I put this together, which you might find amusing.

Pretty much somes up my total disappointment with the current Codex perfectly... and it's exactly why I'm slowly building, converting and painting my Iron Warriors.

I'm hoping that if I take my time with them, that by the time I am finished, CSMs will have a new AND improved Codex worth playing... which is why I have Dreadnoughts and am considering other things to acquire for my chosen army...

I will probably give a Basilisk the IW treatment for apocalypse or the shelf (as a representation of what the Chaos forces would realistically be doing).... and hope for better rules to come.

Of course, if the next editions rules suck, I might just get a old v3.5 dex since I play at home against my nephew and girlfriend...

But if there are new units released that I WANT to use, I'll have to use whatever crap dex gets shat out by GW... or right my own....

aka_mythos wrote:... GW just has no heart for chaos and has done every aspect of them half halfheartedly.

Amen to that. I should also mention that, from time to time, I'll read HBMC's review of the current "Chaos" "codex", just because it's so damned funny and right on the spot.

It's a shame that no-one on the design team really has a liking for Chaotic stuff. Phil Kelly is a big proponent of the Eldar, Mat Ward of Marines. Chaos doesn't have that, nor do a lot of the armies really. And we all know what happens when no-one is a proponent of the army. (Tyranids, Squats, need I say more...)

Which in a way is pretty funny, considering that Bryan Ansell (the owner of GW during its "Golden Age" imo) was a huge fan of all of the Chaos elements. Heck, he has a picture of him and his army in the WHFB 3rd edition army books. Plus, let's not forget TWO tomes devoted to Chaos and all of its zaniness.

It's pathetic when you see, almost literally every week, a new "5th edition Chaos fandex" on the proposed rules section. That oughta be a wake-up call. Even the worst fandex is still better than the bile that was spewed forth by GW and its minions.

I really want to be excited for a Chaos Legions codex. A good chaos codex is probably the only thing that will get me back into 40k. I'm really concerned, especially if it is released right before an edition change, it's going to be lackluster.

The main thing for me that I think they need to do to set it apart from CSMs is bring a heavy daemonic elements, both the daemons currently available from the Daemons codex, as well as new daemon engines and those from Forgeworld. Make daemonic possession for standard CSM vehicles something tangible, with weapons not available to other Chaos forces. This, however, presents the problem eating into both the CSMs and Chaos Daemons sales, so I don't see it happening.

I'm not normally cynical as far as GW is concerned, but after trying my hardest to make a positive run with the last CSM codex, and being pretty disappointed with the lack of effort to make Chaos Daemons a truly unique army, I don't have much faith that GW will get Chaos Legions right. I really hope I am way off the mark, though.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Always a drone, never a battle suit.

With apologies to Nchamp1991.

I had a discussion about the current dex with a few friends of mine and what everybody agreed with me,is not that the units in the dex are bad(well there is some exceptions...,Possesed,Spawns and a few more),but what the CSM really lack is the wargear...

We did plummeted from more then 100 options to...what?...20?

It was a drastical cut in what maked the book different from a regular SM book.

Yeah we have a D weapon who can give you 2D6 attacks...when your not stabbing yourself like a moron...

And whats infuriating is not that the D weapons are badly designed,but that they are the only choice you have!!!

If at least there was 2-3 alternatives options to go with,but no...

Also in the more traditional wargear,we completly lost the only mean of re-throw a dice we had in the Dex;the Ornamental Spikes!

Now every freaking HQ choice as an option that enables them to re-throw failed to hit dices,but we are the only ones who does not...

Same goes for the Deamon Prince,like said above,in the past he was the BOSS,the most meanest and bad ass dude of the army,he could be taken down,but it was not before a uter gore and bloody mess!

Now if like me you play World Eaters...he's useless!

He gets shot down in one turn...,and even if he manage to stay alive the impact of a Khorne Deamon Prince isn't really that great...

Yes he has 6 attacks on the charge with the mark...,but he isn't more effective for this...

No special ability or gear...

At least even the Deamon codex version as a few options,even if it cost a leg and a arm...

Possesed are rather useless if you pick the wrong mutation,if they still had their SM wargear,like bolt pistols or could have acces to spacial weapons,that would be a different story,but...

While its true Zerkers are better,stats wise,the lack of options is just dumb..., a melta bomb, a power weapon or PF, and a Plasma...seriously?,4 options?...

While those marines get grenade launchers,Relic Blades and what not?...

The way Icons work is just wrong...

They are overpriced for something that if it falls on the ground,the unit forget how to use it...

Yeah the 30pts is cheap when you take a large squad...,but if you take say 3 bikes...its a realy steep price for a unit who isn't even stubborn or don't get furious charge...,10 points per mini the extra A...bah!

Marks should have stayed as is,Marks, and icons should have stayed Icons,5pts DS beacons,nothing more.

And don't get me started over cultist Termies...

I really hope that the next dex will correct those issues...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:Who gives a flying feth?

A lot of people.

But you knew that already.

A lot of people think Mat Ward's fluff isn't dumb.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But you knew that already.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's dull, and killed my interest in Guard for about a year. I bought so much of the new Guard stuff when it hit, including the Codex... and the Codex itself was enough to make me lose all interest in the Guard. And this is me, the guy who would dispense Guard information to everyone, wrote long tactica articles and received PM's all the time from members asking for IG advice. I went from being the most enthusiastic Guard player here to utterly disillusions with them in less than 200 pages.

All the current Guard Codex is good at is sending you to sleep. Arby (which is easier to type than both Cruddace and Cruddance) created a book that changed virtually every rule in the entire book, and replaced it with a stale one-note army list filled with all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't work (random ability Penal troopers), pointless units that just fill up space (half the Russ variants) or stuff that simple should not be in standard 40K (Deathstrikes). And then he went and added the Vendetta, which had to have been added at the last minute given the kit includes no parts for it.

I don't blame Arby completely, just like I don't blame Gav for what happened to the Daemons in the current 'Chaos' Codex. He was no doubt getting his orders from a higher source ("Everyone owns three Sanctioned Psykers, so to increase sales you're going to make them a unit of 10!", "We're getting rid of the hybrid Hellhound kit - make rules for different versions so there's a reason for people who already own Hellhounds to buy MOAR!!!!", "Make it so you can have big blocks of Guard infantry in one unit, and then we'll reduce the contents of the infantry box and in a year we'll be charging the same amount for 10 as we did for 20! Ahahaha! We're geniuses!"), but that doesn't stop the Codex from being dull and just... grey.

The Doctrine system of the previous Codex was a joke - it didn't work as intended and was open to abuse (not as much as the Trait system, but it's still pretty similar) - but at least your army could have character beyond MechVets.

I am utterly mystified by the fact that you can dislike the new IG codex for a reason other than doctrines being gone. It seems like some time during 4th edition you arbitrarily flipped a switch between liking and extreme hating GW's new codexes.

God, finally.

Been waiting a while, and I really think that chaos deserves it.

Now if only they'll ensure that the summoned daemons become actual daemons in the books. (I.E. Emperor's Children get Daemonettes, World Eaters get Bloodletters, etc.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand why people think Cruddace (Not Cruddance, I have no idea why people get this wrong) screwed up the Imperial Guard. The codex is fantastic, characterful, and well written.

It's dull, and killed my interest in Guard for about a year. I bought so much of the new Guard stuff when it hit, including the Codex... and the Codex itself was enough to make me lose all interest in the Guard. And this is me, the guy who would dispense Guard information to everyone, wrote long tactica articles and received PM's all the time from members asking for IG advice. I went from being the most enthusiastic Guard player here to utterly disillusions with them in less than 200 pages.

All the current Guard Codex is good at is sending you to sleep. Arby (which is easier to type than both Cruddace and Cruddance) created a book that changed virtually every rule in the entire book, and replaced it with a stale one-note army list filled with all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't work (random ability Penal troopers), pointless units that just fill up space (half the Russ variants) or stuff that simple should not be in standard 40K (Deathstrikes). And then he went and added the Vendetta, which had to have been added at the last minute given the kit includes no parts for it.

I don't blame Arby completely, just like I don't blame Gav for what happened to the Daemons in the current 'Chaos' Codex. He was no doubt getting his orders from a higher source ("Everyone owns three Sanctioned Psykers, so to increase sales you're going to make them a unit of 10!", "We're getting rid of the hybrid Hellhound kit - make rules for different versions so there's a reason for people who already own Hellhounds to buy MOAR!!!!", "Make it so you can have big blocks of Guard infantry in one unit, and then we'll reduce the contents of the infantry box and in a year we'll be charging the same amount for 10 as we did for 20! Ahahaha! We're geniuses!"), but that doesn't stop the Codex from being dull and just... grey.

The Doctrine system of the previous Codex was a joke - it didn't work as intended and was open to abuse (not as much as the Trait system, but it's still pretty similar) - but at least your army could have character beyond MechVets.

I agree with all points, however, I think the doctrine system could have worked if they had playtested it more. Then again, all rules could do with more playtesting.

nowadays, its like all the army books are sent straight from alpha to print.....


off topic note = 1000th post! woot!

FITZZ wrote:

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at current 'Chaos' Codex*

Well... it certainly can't get any worse can it?

Wait... who would be writing it? Not... him...

Who gives a flying feth? As long as the book is playable, I'm cool with the iron warriors building a planet sized robot that warps around the galaxy or the alpha legion subjugating another 6 chapters of loyalists.

Lot's of people give a flying feth, "playability" isn't the only thing to look for in a codex...course maybe your the type of guy that would be cool with Batman's backstory being altered so he was bitten by a radioactive bat and failed to save his Grandmother...so long as he still had all the cool " bat-gadgets".

Don't forget your Bat Sunscreen, Bat Tampons, Bat Ladder, Bat Air Freshener, Bat Dental Floss and Bat Floor Mats! All at Batman's All Bat emporium!

Turns out Batman ran a haberdasher and didn't fight criminals.

Glad to see Chaos will get a well deserved upgrade to their Codex.