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CpatTom wrote:Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Nor can some men who have taken one too many hits to the nuts.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

I now await a childish "lost his manhood" joke.

iproxtaco wrote:Hmm, indeed.

Yes, yes, quite good. Pass the tea.

Cool story brosephus.

Cool story, brewsephus.

Organisms can be rendered infertile.

The problem with Homo Astartes. Stupid mule people.

+Yeah, I did, didn't I+

While I've got your attention, would you like to buy my book on parenting?

That's orienteering, silly billy.

I know the Geographers tricks. Trying to use maps of my brain to trick me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Nor can some men who have taken one too many hits to the nuts.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

I now await a childish "lost his manhood" joke.

Haha, to tired for that. Damaged nuts, are just damaged, and with science could be repaired (or maybe replaced, but thats Bile wierd (make for a good horror movie though)

No "lost his manhood" joke?

Son I am disappoint. Thoroughly disappoint.

Void__Dragon wrote:No "lost his manhood" joke?

Son I am disappoint. Thoroughly disappoint.

Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

Welcome, brostantinople, to the meme.

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Without a doubt. I voted for Chaos. Brosenstien.

The Meme is a magical place.

CpatTom wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Without a doubt. I voted for Chaos. Brosenstien.

The Meme is a magical place.

Indeed it is, fratello.

Ok now, this is one of the strangest debates I have read so far...

Has this silliness about Grey Knights having Emperor's geneseed* existed before Ward got his paws on the fluff? I just remember source of GKs genessed being 'unknown' in the older fluff, sometimes theorised being from those members of the traitor legions who remained loyal while rest of their brethren turned to Chaos (Thus proving to be particularly resistant to corruption.)

BTW, This and the thread about Emperor's height has made me aware of a rather amusing phenomenon. In the fluff Emperor always insisted being just a man, and did not wish to be worshipped as a God. But his followers did not want to hear any of that, and after he was incapacitated, deified him anyway. I see the exact same thing happening with the fans (and even with some writers) they do not wish to see the Emperor as a man, but as a God. And once enough writers buy this, Emperor retroactively becomes God, thus making him wrong about his own godhood...


*(Why would Emperor even have geneseed? He is not a Primarch. And if he could have just created Space Marines out of his own flesh, why he did not do so before this? There had been no need for Primarchs.)


As for Tau, I'm sure they can be corrupted, it just does not happen to them so easily.

I always thought that the Grey Knight geneseed came from the tithes from chapters, but I don't think Ward brought the Emperor thing in.

If we're talking about the hold on the respective followers, then I'd say chaos, because the ethereals are more you want to do what they say(due to the aftershave/pheromones) but chaos is actually control of the mind.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

Homo Sapien Sapien...

We are not cave men.

DeffDred wrote:Homo Sapien Sapien...
We are not cave men.

I dunno about all that.

List of Tau that have used the Help of a Chaos God:

La'Kias( Fire Warrior Novel)

List of Chaos Space Marines/ Chaos Daemons that have converted to the greater good:

N/A


As much as I love my Tau, Chaos wins.

Crimson wrote:Has this silliness about Grey Knights having Emperor's geneseed* existed before Ward got his paws on the fluff? I just remember source of GKs genessed being 'unknown' in the older fluff, sometimes theorised being from those members of the traitor legions who remained loyal while rest of their brethren turned to Chaos (Thus proving to be particularly resistant to corruption.)

BTW, This and the thread about Emperor's height has made me aware of a rather amusing phenomenon. In the fluff Emperor always insisted being just a man, and did not wish to be worshipped as a God. But his followers did not want to hear any of that, and after he was incapacitated, deified him anyway. I see the exact same thing happening with the fans (and even with some writers) they do not wish to see the Emperor as a man, but as a God. And once enough writers buy this, Emperor retroactively becomes God, thus making him wrong about his own godhood...


*(Why would Emperor even have geneseed? He is not a Primarch. And if he could have just created Space Marines out of his own flesh, why he did not do so before this? There had been no need for Primarchs.)

As for Tau, I'm sure they can be corrupted, it just does not happen to them so easily.

Well I'm not arguing that he's a God, simply that he isn't a man in any form we know.

No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

iproxtaco wrote:
No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

Well, marines have progenitor glands, that produce geneseed. I assume the Primarchs had those as well, as they are super-marines.

Crimson wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

Well, marines have progenitor glands, that produce geneseed. I assume the Primarchs had those as well, as they are super-marines.

Primarchs aren't just over-sized Astartes, and do not have Progenoids. Besides, the gland is an implant, the geneseed does not come pre-packaged, it must be gathered.

Theblitzkrieg wrote:Chaos turned half the Space Marine Legions against the Emperor and they hold a lot of demon worlds. Chaos wins. Tau meanwhile is evil like Joseph Stalin evil and not so aluring.

Actually, the tau worlds are to ultramar what ultramar is to the rest of the imperium. They don't have slaves performing physical labour, they have drones. They don't have enormours habs full of unimaginable corruption, they have low density, self sustaining cities surrounded by farm lands. when the population reaches a certain point, they make another city. When the planet has about a million, they take a new world.

The Empire is what the Imperium wishes it was, except for the only having 100 worlds part.

Chaos is a little like a virus where the GG is a idea. I'd also say they the two do not automatically rule the other out. Chaos for the grater good maybe?

nomotog wrote:Chaos is a little like a virus where the GG is a idea. I'd also say they the two do not automatically rule the other out. Chaos for the grater good maybe?

For the Greater Gods!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Theblitzkrieg wrote:Chaos turned half the Space Marine Legions against the Emperor and they hold a lot of demon worlds. Chaos wins. Tau meanwhile is evil like Joseph Stalin evil and not so aluring.

Actually, the tau worlds are to ultramar what ultramar is to the rest of the imperium. They don't have slaves performing physical labour, they have drones. They don't have enormours habs full of unimaginable corruption, they have low density, self sustaining cities surrounded by farm lands. when the population reaches a certain point, they make another city. When the planet has about a million, they take a new world.

The Empire is what the Imperium wishes it was, except for the only having 100 worlds part.

I have a feeling you're mixing your perception of Ultramar with any old story of a back-water Hive World. Ultrmar is not like you described it.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure he was describing Tau worlds, not Ultramar.

He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

iproxtaco wrote:He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

I'm confused, are you saying that tau cites are paradise or are you saying something else?

Chaos. The Greater Good may be a strong belief its nothing compared to a emotion spawned, galaxy spanning religion with proof of their gods existence.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

I'm confused, are you saying that tau cites are paradise or are you saying something else?

Kind of. Every Tau undoubtedly have a much higher standard of living compared to the vast majority of the Imperium. I'm not convinced of the statement that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like it is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultramar is idyllic, in this galaxy where the prospects of the average human is servitor, guardsmen, or manual labour, Ultramar is a paradise. It's what the Imperium was envisioned as by the Emperor, Guilliman took that to heart and created the perfect Imperium. Like I said, we know so little of Tau society, and that I can see them haveing a very easy existence, with so many automated systems, I don't think the difference is huge, if there is one. A big part of it is the attitudes of the people. In Ultramar each person values his role in the upkeep of the Emperor's domain, has hope for the future, that's ingrained into society, that everyone should emulate a perfect example of efficiency and compliance. So, people are happy with their situation. I imagine this respect the Tau are the same, but I think the difference lies in how the higher echelons of governance value each person. Are all Tau valued the same? We don't know, but at least people in Ultramar are all valued members of society.

The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Actually, that was really well said. *gentlemanly clap*

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Are there any sources that show Tau being forced into the fold? I know there are a few leaders like Brightsword and Farsight who forsake the Greater Good, but are there any times when the regular Tau Joe doesnt (at the very least think) want to do there work for the Greater Good?