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Kaldor wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:I'm not going to bother reading any of the other posts in this thread because I already know that I know more about Star Wars then anyone else here, and therefore no one's considered my point.

The average travel time of the fastest Imperium of Man ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of years.

The average travel time of the fastest Republic ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of days.

On that matter alone, the Republic would crush the Imperium of Man.

Point considered, and you're wrong. SW ships cannot engage at FTL speeds, and their sublight speeds are a fraction of the speeds of 40K ships. In fact at sublight speeds 40K ships are around 190 times faster than their SW counterparts.

Being able to get places really fast is no good if you get there and get blown to pieces.

And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.

These discussions are always so silly. The Galaxy Gun can fire a planet destroying bullet that travels hundreds of times faster than lightspeed from one side of the galaxy to the other. There's literally nothing stopping it from pressing a button and destroying Terra from the other side of the galaxy with a single shot, destroying the Emperor and thus the astrnomicon, as well as the High Lords of Terra and the hub of the majority or the Imperium's most sensitive governing bodies, which would pretty much cripple the entire Imperium and drown them in even more bureaucratic bs than they already are. There's nothing stopping the Suncrusher from popping up out of the blue right in the middle of the Sol system and making its sun go supernova, again with just a press of a button, wiping out not just Terra but also Mars. This can be done to those planets, this can be done to Cadia, this can be done to Macragge, etc ad infinitum, and the Imperium has literally zero defense against this because their mobility is complete gak. It takes less than five minutes to "make the jump to lightspeed". The Imperium will never be able to catch any of the Imperial ships. It'd be a slaughter.

BlaxicanX wrote:And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.

Nonsense. Even a tiny 40K defense contingent would have more than enough time to destroy an SW force, at sublight speeds. A single Thunderhawk would have enough time to take off from the planets surface, fly into space, intercept and destroy the Suncrusher, and STILL have time to return to base, reload and refuel, watch a movie, have some dinner, go home for the day, then return to the base in the morning, fly back out into space and destroy the remainder of the SW forces who are still crawling along at a top speed of 360kph.

A thunderhawk can travel at around 75,000kph. The 40K Navy can engage effectively at 150,000 kilometers.

Being able to get places really fast is great, but once the SW ships get there they are hamstrung by crawling sublight speeds and laughable weapons ranges. At sublight, an entire squadron of fighters could be eliminated by a single armed shuttle, while any kind of fire-ship would make a mockery of Star Destroyers. Simply load it with explosives and plow it into the bridge at speeds so fast the ISD has no chance to react. Let alone actually engaging with a 40K ship of the line.

It'd be like using the Concorde to transport a race car. You could get it to the racetrack faster than anyone else, for sure. But if you're entering a ride-on Lawn-mower in the F1 Grand Prix, then whats the point?

These discussions are always so silly

I know, but they're so much fun right?

Kaldor wrote:[
A thunderhawk can travel at around 75,000kph.

Can you provide a source for this?

Who would win in a fight? Superman or Mighty Mouse?

Mighty Mouse, based off of feats.

chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.

now for why;

space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.

and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.

we know this argument, it comes up all the time.

star trek looses

star wars looses

halo looses

whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.

I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.

Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).

Brother Coa wrote:

chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.

now for why;

space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.

and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.

we know this argument, it comes up all the time.

star trek looses

star wars looses

halo looses

whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.

I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.

Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).

Wait, what?

How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?

Pouncey wrote:
Wait, what?

How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?

Because they are trained from childhood?
They became Guardsman as soon as they reach adulthood.
Average lifespan of Guardsman depends, conscript is 15 hours, professional Guardsmen is much bigger.

Bringing up The Culture is just unfair in setting vs setting. The Culture wins against just about every other setting.

Never heard of them, who/what universe are they set in?

Kaldor wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.

Nonsense. Even a tiny 40K defense contingent would have more than enough time to destroy an SW force, at sublight speeds. A single Thunderhawk would have enough time to take off from the planets surface, fly into space, intercept and destroy the Suncrusher,

Thunderhawk destroying the Suncrusher?

The damn thing survived a glancing hit for the Death Star main laser, no way in hell that Thunderhawk will do anything and once the sun wiping torpedo is launcher, aint much to do.

2 words : Angry Marines.

They'll just ram into the death star at full speed with a battle barge.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:2 words : Angry Marines.

They'll just ram into the death star at full speed with a battle barge.

Waitwaitwait, now do you really think they would really use a battlebarge to do what they so effectively could with their hands?

Lances and nova cannons can engage targets at greater ranges, while 40k torpedoes are more versatile. And hello, if you detonate a Star Wars star ship, all you get is a nuclear explosion, but if you detonate a 40k ship, you get a @#$%^&* portal to hell. The Sun Crusher was destroyed by a black hole. An out of control warp portal is the same. And it doesn't matter if the Galaxy Gun can hit Terra from the other side of the galaxy, the Emperor erects a dimensional field/warp shield around Terra and sends the shot into the warp or "back to sender". The Death Star is only the size of a moon, even a single Inquisition/Astartes vessel has enough cyclonic torpedoes to blow it apart by approaching from the blind side. 40k FTL may be slow, but in sub-light speed, we're faster, and in ground combat we're definitely superior. And you can fry/control the Sun Crusher's pilot with a powerful enough psyker.

Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:

We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.

No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.

*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.

Bobthehero wrote:
The damn thing survived a glancing hit for the Death Star main laser, no way in hell that Thunderhawk will do anything and once the sun wiping torpedo is launcher, aint much to do.

Void shields or just blocking it with a ship?

Or the old guy from Star Trek that wiped out the whole race of Hoosnok with a single thought.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:

We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.

No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.

*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.

And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.

Pouncey wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.

now for why;

space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.

and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.

we know this argument, it comes up all the time.

star trek looses

star wars looses

halo looses

whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.

I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.

Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).

Wait, what?

How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?

Not true at all mate. The average lifespan of a guardaman is not 6 minutes, no idea why people say that, nor is it 15 hours, that was the lifespan of a raw recruit on a ork infested world. The guard does lose alot of soldiers daily, but thats due to them having trillions of soldiers fighting on millions of worlds.

If the lifespan really was 6 minutes, there would be no Imperial Guard, but they ve been defending and explanding the IoM for 10000 years. The guard is the Imperiums first line of defense in a hostile galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its common knowledge that Big E can create warpstorms, and psykers can alter your perception of reallity. In one of the Eisenhorn books a psyker made him take his side arm and shoot him in the head with it. The only reason Eisenhorn survived was that another friendly psyker jamed his gun. Therefore Big E could make warpstorms appear and swallow these super weapons (which are really quite stupid anyway) or a psyker could make the pilots/operators kill themselves, or just make their heads explode. And Empire ships have no protection from psykic powers. Source The truce at Bakatu where the lizard guys could steal your soul using a force sensitive, through the hull of a ship.

Wow, for once we agree on something, Mr. ObliviousBlueCaboose. The Imperial Guard's heavy casualties are the sum of galaxy-wide campaigns, not a single battlefield, and the gods of 40k are more than capable of shattering reality if they intervene. And quite correct, Star Wars vessels have no protection from psychic abilities, unlike 40k vessels which are shielded psychically since they're designed to enter the warp, which is a psychic realm and has been described as hell sometimes.

Tadashi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:

We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.

No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.

*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.

And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.

The C'tan were defeated by their own slaves. The Q travel through time on numerous occations, turn people into amoebae just because and teleports a Borg Cube from across the galaxy. They're LITERALLY omnipotent, bar being able to harm eachother. You can't win against beings that transcend time and space. If the C'tan were on that level of power, why would they EVER fall to their slaves in the first place. Likewise, if the Emperor was that powerful, why do the Chaos Gods exist at all?

Again, OMNIPOTENT. Per definition impossible to beat.

Now I like star wars and star trek as well as 40k. And Id have to say, the IoM would dominate the space battles, since both SW and ST seem to think battles happen at 100s of kilometers while 40k happen at 100000s of km. Ground warfare, if we allow extended universe for both sw and st, star trek loses to PDFs. Star Wars would be a better fight. But the Empire seems to lack armor. Their ground forces seem to be Infantry and light tanks. Plus walkers. I dont see how they could beat the Imperial Guard. As for Jedi, they seem to get owned by the Clones and Imperial Guardsmen are better armored, and trained. Seeing as all the clones do i. The movies is march in formation and fire. Guardsmen take cover and use other tactics. Plus long range artillery, and heavy armor.

The average combat life span of a guardsman is probably less than 6 min, not total life span. How is a guy with a t shirt and a flash light better armed and armored than a clone trooper. Imperial guard are probably about as good as the guys on the blockade runner in the opening of episode IV. The storm troopers owner them....on a boarding mission no less! They are more in line with the rebels that were defending Hoth.

Guard suck, always have always will. The win with numbers. They rarely rely on experience, especially the way the game is played now. "Hey you survived a battle, here is a melta gun join this suicide squad!"

Fluff and rules are completely different, in game even space marines can shoot only about 50 yards. Playing battle fleet Gothic, same thing, you can use fluff to give range estimates and power outputs, but in game range is pathetic.

If we're talking about the clone wars, then I reckon the jedi would be amazing and create a very close-fought match. If Episodes IV-VI, then I reckon the Empire would win, their epic ships and the Death Star plus Dark Troopers and geeky blahdeblah being amazing.

Unless the Imperium fights like they do in the ridiculous fluff, in which case one space marine would probably destroy a legion of clones with ease, making 40k win.

You have to remember that in the fluff Storm troopers are BAD asses, yeah in the movies they get beat up by care bears. It all depends on your sources of information.

Andrew1975 wrote:The average combat life span of a guardsman is probably less than 6 min, not total life span. How is a guy with a t shirt and a flash light better armed and armored than a clone trooper. Imperial guard are probably about as good as the guys on the blockade runner in the opening of episode IV. The storm troopers owner them....on a boarding mission no less! They are more in line with the rebels that were defending Hoth.

Guard suck, always have always will. The win with numbers. They rarely rely on experience, especially the way the game is played now. "Hey you survived a battle, here is a melta gun join this suicide squad!"

Fluff and rules are completely different, in game even space marines can shoot only about 50 yards. Playing battle fleet Gothic, same thing, you can use fluff to give range estimates and power outputs, but in game range is pathetic.

Ive been using the fluff. And from what ive read on both, guardsmen would own the clones. The basic guns of both are about equal, yet in star wars the armor does nothing, the blaster punches right through. Guardsmens flak armor stops lasguns. And friend, stop using the tabletop. Lasguns and flak armor is only flashlights and t shirts in game. In the fluff they are alot better. And no the IG doesnt win just by numbers. They use tactics and if that fails they then result to a war of attration. And to nip this ib the bud, commissars are there to enforce disipline, give tactical advise and as a last resort kill a retreater. Stoo buying into the flanderized IG. The IG is a highly trained professional army that has ample tanks, artillery, and support elements. You will have some officers like chenkov, but for every chenkov you have officers like creed, gaunt, al rhaim ect.

So we should use the fluff based on the game that came out first, instead of the actual game rules and universe that inspired the fluff! Huh?

It's a matter of perspective. Which is why the tread is always pretty stupid. There are so many different sources that the question can never really be debated.

In the books stormtroopers are almost on par with space marines. Rebels gak their pants when the stormtroopers show up. In the movie they are comic relief and even though they shoot so precisely "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" in combat they can't hit the side of a barn.

In the books their armor is pretty good able to withstand multiple blasts and almost all physical munitions, in the movie a teddy bear can poke it with a stick!

You can do the same for almost any 40k reference.

But universally IG SUCK! Maybe not the entire arm, but the soldiers SUCK, HARD. The whole concept was based on the Russian army during WW2. How did they win, they just threw bodies at Germans. Same as IG. Fluff is exactly what it sounds like. It's fluffy it makes you feel good as an IG player. If they wrote fluff based on the game, an IG book would be 2 pages maybe. I showed up, I died, the end. 1 page if you are a 1st or 2nd ed guardmen. "What's this grenade? Gas...Fuuuuuuu!"

Andrew1975

Quantity virtually ALWAYS beats Quality. Thermopalyae(?) WW2 eastern front. Hello Mr.Jedi. Meet Grimaldus, this marine survived a cathederal falling on him purely because he didnt feel like dying yet. and the SM chapters. and the 6/7,000 strong BT. and SW. and the IG. and here is the Inquisition just for good measure.

And Sun Crusher. Meet a Nova cannon. We have lots of these. and the Imperial navy. and the BT/SW/SM fleets. and exterminatus


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Try firing your gun from what amounts to a black hole

In that case lets use the star wars rules for a table top war game... Oh wait. There isnt one! Wh40k wins by defalt. No contrst. Thank you Andrew1975.

And no in the game guardsmen dont drop like flies. Jeez man, again that was early fluff. Back when marines where also cops. And t3. Now the Imperial Guard is one of the best armies, and if we go by the current game as you suggest, the Guard is an elite mechinized army, capable of wiping out all that stand before them. So again if we use your view that we use game play, the clones are wiped out by a barrage of missiles, as gunships drop elite troops off, massacuring the survivers, then a wall of chimeras wipe out the rest. Which isnt that different from the fluff...

Andrew1975 wrote:So we should use the fluff based on the game that came out first, instead of the actual game rules and universe that inspired the fluff! Huh?

It's a matter of perspective. Which is why the tread is always pretty stupid. There are so many different sources that the question can never really be debated.

In the books stormtroopers are almost on par with space marines. Rebels gak their pants when the stormtroopers show up. In the movie they are comic relief and even though they shoot so precisely "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" in combat they can't hit the side of a barn.

In the books their armor is pretty good able to withstand multiple blasts and almost all physical munitions, in the movie a teddy bear can poke it with a stick!

You can do the same for almost any 40k reference.

But universally IG SUCK! Maybe not the entire arm, but the soldiers SUCK, HARD. The whole concept was based on the Russian army during WW2. How did they win, they just threw bodies at Germans. Same as IG. Fluff is exactly what it sounds like. It's fluffy it makes you feel good as an IG player. If they wrote fluff based on the game, an IG book would be 2 pages maybe. I showed up, I died, the end. 1 page if you are a 1st or 2nd ed guardmen. "What's this grenade? Gas...Fuuuuuuu!"

Have you read 40k fluff? The Books? Dan Abnett? Ciaphas cain? Hell even in the Game Space Marine just a couple of them hold an entire gate against orks. I'm sorry mate but Stormtroopers = Space Marines is just insane you can't compare a Super Human Soldier to a guy that is cannon fodder. We have discussed this to death.

BlaxicanX wrote:Can you provide a source for this?
And this?

BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm, or 24,000kms per hour. Weapons ranges are between 30 and 60cm, or 36,000 and 72,000kms, with Nova Cannon ranging up to 150cm or 180,000kms.

That aside, a thunderhawk wouldn't be able to destroy a Sun Crusher. It's only the size of a small fighter but its armor makes it more durable than a planet. It literally has withstood a death star shot, and was still able to function afterwards. There's nothing in the Imperium that can handle that... not in less than ten seconds, which is how long it would take for the Sun Crusher to press the "destroy sun" button and make it go supernova. If you consider that the Necrons using inertia-less drives and managing to get to Mars itself before being blown apart. I don't understand what do you think is stopping the suncrusher from coming out of hyperspace a few thousand miles from the sun and just letting it rip from there?

Jeez, all a Thawk would have to do is open its front cargo bay, jam the Suncrusher inside it, and the fly back to base. Or just send some Marines EVA to open up the thing with chainfists. Best case scenario the thing gets to detonate a single star, before the ship itself is captured and rendered useless.

And your Galaxy gun? Prognosticars predict it's location and firing arc, and the Inquisition deals with it before it even has a chance to fire. Game, set and match.