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Tau. no question about it.

Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

plops1999 wrote:
Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

More than Tau, that's for sure (Death Ray and Tachyon Arrow versus Railgun)!

Golden Sabre wrote:

It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an accelerated particle breaks down as it leaves the barrel. The particle is accelerated by means of an induction field.

This is the Tau pulse rifle.
The 'particle' referred to here is a tungsten bullet for lack of a better term. It is accelerated to unbelievable speeds, generating a 'plasma pulse'. In other words, the Tau pulse rifle fires a bullet, that begins to break down into plasma, to the target. Eventually, it forms into a small ball of plasma, when it exits the barrel, it begins converting back into a gas losing energy as it flies through the air. In the end you get hit with a little bit of plasma. It will burn you, and probably more than likely kill you, but no where near the destructive level of the Imperial plasma gun.

The Tau cannot house plasma within their weaponry safely. They must generate it with the velocity of a tungsten round.

The tau actully have a gun called a plasma rifle, Don't try and make out that we don't know what were talking about by shoving the pulse rifle at us.

Diffrence. Pulse vs. Plasma.

Both Tau guns.

Cryonicleech wrote:
On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium uses lascannons instead of railguns. Why is anyone's guess, but one would assume that accuracy (light vs. physical round), ammo supply and complexity would be a part of it. Why bother overengineering railguns for the Imperial Guard when there's lascannons that are more accurate and less taxing on your supply lines, with almost the same power? The reason the Tau get away with their stuff is because they don't have a galaxy-spanning empire of DOOM.

The plasma part has been covered. Pulse rifles fall under the same principle as lascannons vs. railguns.

Drones generating shields for their commander is irrelevant. The Imperium has Iron Haloes and refractor fields, they fill the same function. Servo-skulls are basically drones but with other functions.

AtoMaki wrote:

plops1999 wrote:
Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

More than Tau, that's for sure (Death Ray and Tachyon Arrow versus Railgun)!

Snap!

I would put the Tau and the Imperium at about the same level. The Tau are certainly progressing faster than the Imperium, at least in some areas, and when it comes to the physical sciences they may well overtake them soon. However, the Imperium has an entire field of technology that the Tau simply cannot access, namely psychic and Warp-based technology.

Tau weapons vs. Imperial weapons; Tau weapons are individually superior, but Imperial weapons are simpler, more easily transportable, more rugged, and do better without enormous amounts of support. Is a pulse rifle 'better' than a lasgun? Honestly, I don't know. A pulse rifle certainly put out more power per shot, but it also seems likely to be a more fragile and temperamental piece of technology, which is something that's a disadvantage on the battlefield. A lasgun is basically a solid-state weapon with only one point of failure (the focusing lens, as seen in the Gaunt's Ghost novels) and if it does fail, it can be fixed by spitting on it (Gaunt's Ghosts again). If a pulse rifle breaks, I would think battlefield repairs would be a somewhat more complex procedure than that. We also don't know what the ammunition capacity of a pulse rifle is; based on the fact that it's putting out so much more energy, I would think it'd be much lower than that of a lasgun.

So on the one hand we have more stopping power, and on the other hand we have more reliability and longer functionality, or at least that's how I see it. I think the same comparison can be made between most pieces of Tau vs. Imperial technology. For a given size/weight/use, Tau technology is better at doing the job when given sufficient support, while Imperial technology does the job a little less well but more reliably, and under a wider variety of conditions. There are, of course, exceptions, the aforementioned differences in plasma use philosophy being one of them.

However, if anything, I would give a slight edge to the Imperium, simply because they can explore and advance in psychic technology while the Tau can't. I know people have protested that we can't include 'magic', but I would argue that the imperium puts the Warp to many non-magical uses; if something is understandable, reproducible, and generally follows the same set of known rules at all times, then it isn't magic, it's technology. Void shields are warp-based technology; so are Gellar fields and Warp drives. Imperial teleportation uses the Warp, I believe, and Tau cannot replicate it simply because the Tau can neither perceive nor truly understand the Warp. The Imperium can use psychic technology both as protective equipment (the Invulnerable save that comes with Terminator armor is hinted to be psychic in nature, based off a fragment of the Emperor's armr) and to boost their offensive power (Grey Knight psybolt ammunition), as well as having a somewhat unreliable but still invaluable method of high-speed interstellar communication in the form of Astropathic choirs.


All that said; the Imperium is certainly not the highest-tech race in the setting. Both the Necrons and the Eldar have them beat, although I'm not sure which I would give the highest honors to.

As to Orks; Orks are at all levels of technology from Stone Age to equal with the Necrons, simultaneously. One Mek can barely manage to bash together a few Shootas and Trukks, while another invents massive teleportation arrays capable of moving Gargants instantly from high orbit to a planetary surface in his off time, builds strangely-advanced force fields to protect his machines, and fires Snotlings through the Warp with a piece of technology that no other race is even capable of reproducing, and which would utterly revolutionize both transportation and communication if they could, or if the Orks were interested in either of those things. As such, they don't really fit on any kind of technology scale. If you plot technology level as a line, with the Imperium and Tau in the middle and Eldar and the Necrons on the left, the Orks are five spaces north of the line, about to open fire on it.

The Tau could develop psychic technology though, the Tau themselves might not be able to use it but their allies can. They do develop technology for the races that fight alongside them.

Speaking of Dark Eldar and Eldar, according to Path of the Renegade by Andy Chambers, the Dark Eldar (who simply refer to themselves as ‘Eldar’ in here) look down upon the Craftworld and Exodites as backwards, yokel scum. Obviously the factions would have prejudice, but it interested me to read about the DE’s thoughts about their kin.

Mentlegen324 wrote:The Tau could develop psychic technology though, the Tau themselves might not be able to use it but their allies can. They do develop technology for the races that fight alongside them.

But the Nicassar are totally uninterested in that, aren't they? I had the impression that the Nicassar actively avoid contact with the Warp and examination of how it works. Though I can't quote any sources for that. . .

The issue, really, is that the Tau lack the sense that allows them to perceive the Warp. They might, through a lot of trial and error and with Nicassar cooperation, develop something that used it; but they cannot make real-time observations of how it works within the Warp, and so they cannot really perform controlled experiments or adjust what they're doing to match conditions in real-time. That's a crippling deficiency, when it comes to performing a certain field of science; it would be like a blind man trying to mix dyes to achieve a certain color. Theoretically possible, but in reality nigh-impossibly difficult. The Imperium has a MASSIVE advantage in this field.

I voted for Orks because 1) their technology can't be replicated 2) their technology is not limited (if a Mekboy can dream it, it can be built) and 3) their technology can do anything and everything, see point #2.

Tyranids are very advanced; they are, after all, essentially engineered and designed like pieces of equipment. There is know-how at work.

However, I had to go for Eldar. Just because it seems like they've reached a point wherein nobody needs to actually do anything in their society anymore. (Obv to actually live like that would invite another fall, but it's about as advanced as is imaginable).

Grey Templar wrote:Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

They are extremely powerful, and because life is cheap the slight chance of injury is quite acceptable. We have weapons today that can injure the wielder if they arn't careful yet they are still used. Just to give an example, don't fire any sort of recoiless weapon/weapon with backwash in an enclosed space(like a building) that doesn't have somewhere for the backwash unless you plan on being profoundly deaf.

Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used.


The Imperium is far superior technologically then the Tau Empire is, they just don't have a way to distribute that tech down all levels. The Tau have a pathetically tiny empire and relativly few soldiers. hence they are able to equip to a higher standard(but you will notice that Gue'vesa don't get Tau equipment and are stuck with Imperial weapons)

Imperial space ships are Warp Capable, have thicker armor, and mount a greater amount of weapons, most of which are Railguns. really big ones. The Imperium doesn't find it practical to put Railguns on tanks because a Railgun is a much less versitile weapon then an explosive shell. A railgun is either a solid slug that punches through armor or a Flechette AOE weapon. An explosive shell can do both, is simpler to manufacture, only has a marginal loss in effectivness, doesn't require a massive power supply to function, and can do both AT and crowd control with the same round(saving space)


Look at Power Armor compared to a XV8 suit. Both give the same amount of protection(3+ save), but the Power Armor is much more compact then the Battlesuit and it still has advanced targeting, communication, and medical systems for its wearer. The Battlesuit can carry heavy weapons like a man portable weapon, but that is simply by virtue of its size. And Space marines can still carry comperable weapons. Imperial Plasma guns are smaller AND more powerful then Tau and Eldar counterparts.

Dakka =/= Technologically superior

If I have a calculator and you have a crossbow, and the goal is to shoot someone, the crossbow will be more effective. That does not mean that the crossbow is technologically superior to the calculator.

Tau tech > Imperium tech, even if some Imperium tech has more powerful bullets.

The Imperium has some tech the Tau doesn't have access to, like warp-drives and the gizmos hidden on Mars. But seriously, the entire strenght of the Tau is that their technology is better than the Imperium's. If the Imperium was superior, why would the Tau even exist in this game? It would be pointless. Fluff-wise they would lose every engagement, since the Imperium has more numbers and is muuuuuuuuuch bigger. Take away the Tau's place as having superior tech (in comparison to the Imperium; Eldar and Necrons have even more advanced tech) and you take away the Tau.

Your analogy is off. Yes more powerful doesn't equal technologically superior when your comparing apples and oranges. But it can when comparing apples and apples, e.g. two different types of guns.

Of course there is more too it than just power. You should also consider durability, ease of use, compactness, and safety.

So just comparing plasma weaponry the Tau win on safety, (though one could argue this is a design choice rather than a technological feat), but Imperial plasma beats them out on power, compactness, ease of use, and durability.

And the Tau have nothing comparable to melta pistols, digital weapons, or baleful eyes, all of which display more power, compactness, and durability than Tau infantry weaponry.

I agree dakka =/= technologically superior, but what are you using to measure, because it seems you are just declaring their superiority via fiat.

Grey Templar also discussed power armor technology, where the Imperium seems heads and shoulders above the Tau in tech.

The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Henners91 wrote:The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Sure, but its easier to equip a few billion FW with pulse weaponry than equip a quadrohypersuperdupermegabazillion guardsmen with something equally nasty. The Imperium must be cost-effective because its size and scale are big. The Tau can go hardware-happy, because they have only a handful of possible battlefields so the logistics/resource management is way more focused.

TBH I think orks seeing as their tech works by them believing that it works XD

though then again, admech might have and just aren't telling anyone

However the topic is "Who's got more Advanced Tech" not "Who's got a better distribution of Advanced Technology"

The Imperium has everything the Tau has and more besides, they just don't give it out to everyone because it isn't practical.



if everything was perfect, the Imperium would give every Guardsmen a bolter and every Space Marine a Plasma gun as their standard equipment. Guardsmen would wear carapace armor and Space Marines would wear nothing but Artificer Armor and TDA. Terminators would have built in Stormbolters in their Stormshields and have Typhoon Missile racks.

An army like that would blow the Tau, and most other armies, out of the water. There wouldn't even be water left to get blown out of.



The Imperium could mount railguns on Lemun Russ tanks, but it would require them to replace the cheaply manufactured LRBT's engine that runs on just about anything with a compact Fusion reactor found in Dreadnoughts and Landraiders. Not practical.

AtoMaki wrote:

Henners91 wrote:The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Sure, but its easier to equip a few billion FW with pulse weaponry than equip a quadrohypersuperdupermegabazillion guardsmen with something equally nasty. The Imperium must be cost-effective because its size and scale are big. The Tau can go hardware-happy, because they have only a handful of possible battlefields so the logistics/resource management is way more focused.

I don't think you two are disagreeing with each other.

And as has been said dozens of times, that is what it comes down too. The Imperium HAVE superior tech, but don't/can't distribute it among their troops as well, so on average the Tau solder is equipped with higher tech items than the Guardsman.

yes, but that wasn't the question.

No one would dispute that a Pulse Rifle, Fire Warrior armor, EMP grenades, and Marker lights are more advanced then a Lasgun, combat knife, flak armor, frag and krak grenades, and monoculars.


However, promote that Guardsmen to Plasmagunner and suddenly he has a weapon more advanced and more powerful then a Tau battlesuit can carry. its also a weapon the Tau are too chicken to reverse engineer because 1st degree burns are not for the greater good.

You guys are completely wrong. Even though necrons and tau are really good at tech stuff their technology is no where near the perplexing tech of orks. Seriosly there is not a single reposted insident where necrons or any other race would figured out how to even fire a simple slugga but I heard how orks turned necron vehicles to an insalely powerful bomb that took down an entire planet in a single blast. Imperium's exterminatus looks like a firecracker compared to that.

illuknisaa wrote:You guys are completely wrong. Even though necrons and tau are really good at tech stuff their technology is no where near the perplexing tech of orks. Seriosly there is not a single reposted insident where necrons or any other race would figured out how to even fire a simple slugga but I heard how orks turned necron vehicles to an insalely powerful bomb that took down an entire planet in a single blast. Imperium's exterminatus looks like a firecracker compared to that.

Not sure if trolling...

Firstly, we are disregarding psychic powers as tech.

Secondly, there are numerous instances in the fluff where sluggas have been used by other races. They are a simple and well understood technology. In the RPG's they are just treated as unreliable when not in ork hands. The WAAAGH!!! effect just helps smooth out operation. The ability of ork weapons to fire without a visible means of doing so has been both supported and contradicted by the fluff, so you are free to choose your interpretation, but even if we accept it as true that would be a psychic power, not technology.

In the incident in question the orks did not 'turn a vehicle into a bomb', they were given Necron tech and screwed up, causing the weapon to explode due to misuse...which means that, yes, the Necron's had the capability to create weapons that destructive, since they did, in fact, create the weapon in question.

Which isn't to say that Orks don't have high level technology, their teleporters and shokk guns are great examples of their technological capabilites.

But they don't have anything on the level of the Necrons galactic teleporters, dimension hopping abilities, mind scarabs, nano tech, etc.

Orks.

Seriously, they bend phyics so might it might as well be their prison bitch.

The Waaagh field is a psychic manifistation that orks neither comprehend or question. It just happens, it isn't technology persay. More like a psychic miracle.

Grey Templar wrote:The Waaagh field is a psychic manifistation that orks neither comprehend or question. It just happens, it isn't technology persay. More like a psychic miracle.

Our computers don't work very well in the presence of strong magnetic fields, so really our computers aren't technology amirite?

What does a physical thing have to do with a psychic one?

Technology is "The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry". It is irrelevant if said scientific knowledge includes psychic power.

Daemon infested vehicles, for example, are a form of technology, making use of a scientific understanding of daemons to trap the daemon in to the vehicle to enhance its performance on the battlefield.

But they don't understand it on a scientific level. They just barter the tortured souls of their enemies for favors from the dark gods and stuff.

DE Codex says DE Tech is superior to CE's.

riplikash wrote:
Secondly, there are numerous instances in the fluff where sluggas have been used by other races. They are a simple and well understood technology. In the RPG's they are just treated as unreliable when not in ork hands. The WAAAGH!!! effect just helps smooth out operation. The ability of ork weapons to fire without a visible means of doing so has been both supported and contradicted by the fluff, so you are free to choose your interpretation, but even if we accept it as true that would be a psychic power, not technology.

Could you quote these pieces of fluff?

And fluff=/=rules if fluff->rules a single ork (any ork will do) would autowin da emprah in any competition.

I guess Orks think that they have the most advanced technology. But it appears that Nids (in evolution, some form of technology) and Tau (in technology) have them.

Melissia wrote:Technology is "The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry". It is irrelevant if said scientific knowledge includes psychic power.

Daemon infested vehicles, for example, are a form of technology, making use of a scientific understanding of daemons to trap the daemon in to the vehicle to enhance its performance on the battlefield.

While that is a valid definition of technology for us in 40k there is a distinct separation between warp effects (sorcery, magic, whatever), and it is generally accepted, in universe, that technology refer's to things relying on the latter, which is why you can have a mix of 'technology' and 'sorcery', instead of sorcery just being an extension of technology.

What's more you end up with a problem in your definition. If "Technology is the application of scientific knowledge..." then we need to look at what science is, i.e. "The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe". So we already have a problem, warp "technology" doesn't rely on "scientific" knowledge, e.g. the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe.

But even if we extend the definition of 'the physical and natural universe' to include the warp, we have a hard time justifying it as falling under 'science'. Have you ever done logical or mathematical proofs? In science, logic, and mathematics you prove something is true by using one of our existing 'truths' (which we call 'assumptions') to show that if we extend them, then logically, the thing we are trying to prove is true. For example, let's assume 1+1 is 2 (calculus actually has to be used to prove that 1+1 is 2, but that is why we say "let us assume"). We can then conclude that 2+2 is for because (1+1)+(1+1)=4.

All scientific knowledge is made up of these proofs, until we get to a few basic assumptions we can't prove, but just have to assume, because if they aren't true then science cannot actually fully uncover how the universe works, and that is a pointless assumption, so we assume these basic things are true. Different groups have come up with different numbers of basic assumptions, but there are a few that are agreed upon.

* Any phenomena can be understood as an effect of the laws of nature.
* The laws of nature are the same everywhere
* Evidence from the natural world can be used to learn about those causes.
* The laws of nature are understandable by a human

If one of those assumptions are not true, science doesn't work as a method for discovering truth. In the warp, NONE of those assumptions applies. So 'science' cannot be applied to the warp. If effects aren't reproducible, laws aren't consistent, and phenomena cannot be understood through observation, science cannot be applied.

Which again leads us to the conclusion, based on your definition, that warp effects are not 'technology' as we understand the term.