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Because the IOM fanboys refuse to accept that a xeno race that hasn't been officially stated as being better than the current state of human tech, might be

There's fluff justification that they are, but then there's fluff justification that they are more advanced than the eldar too, which is just silly

Tau are ahead of the IOM in some areas, and behind in others. I would put them as on par, but pulling ahead, while then IOM is regressing.

The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too pussy to create a gun that fires a small sun.

Necrons, even with the removal of the inertialess drives they still have the best technology. Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tyranids being second followed by Tau/IoM and Orks/Chaos.

Tyranids have advanced bio-engineering capabilities, while they lack in other areas they cover the issues with bio-tech. This would put them up around the current Eldar level.

Tau and IoM are roughly equal. Each have some areas they are better at than the other keeping them on somewhat equal grounds. The Tau lack resources to take advantage of this though.

The Orks and Chaos are actually very close to the Tau/IoM. The IoM still uses a bunch of the stuff the Chaos are stuck with, but Chaos also covers some of the shortfalls with Daemon technology. The Orks seem to make stuff on the spot to somewhat deal with the current situation using what there is to hand, while it is resourceful it is not advanced.

This is all just in my opinion of course.

Cryonicleech wrote:Necrons for sure.

On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium, on the other hand, turns something as simple as starting a Rhino or preparing a gun into a small ritual, complete with litanies, and not fully understanding WHY the ritual needs to take place. I mean, sure, it's an awesome concept as far as background goes, but at least the Tau have a full understanding of the technology that they use.

Tau don't have direct counterpart to insert random IoM tech that is super rare, unrelible, or only exist in a single story. That's general the reason most people bring up.

The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too pussy to create a gun that fires a small sun.

Got a referance for that?

I think you're confusing the Tau rail weapons with the Tau PLASMA weapons.

IoM has clumbsy plasma weapns that explode because they follow an outdated/incomplete STC. The Tau have a controlled/mastered technology of plasma weapons.

The main difference between the two is that the IoM is willing to let their soldiers die using plasma weapons. Tau have a high value on life.

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

The big argument for the Imperium being ahead is that, technically speaking, the AdMech has tech hidden away beyond what the Tau have accomplished. Matter/energy converters, teleporters, planet busters, void shields, nano-tech, transhuman tech, vortex grenades, anti-aging treatments, and true-AI are all beyond the Tau's current capabilities, and it is hinted that the AdMech is still hiding away their most powerful tech.

The Tau's tech is definitely more advanced than Imperial average, but the heights of human tech are still above what the tau can pull off. But the vast majority of the time this doesn't matter as the AdMech hordes everything away and doesn't like to share.

It's also likely it is in some bunker somewhere on Mars and entirely forgotten about.

Ascalam wrote:

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

It is more accurate to say the Imperium doesn't value human life and so allows their weaponry to be overloaded to increase damage output at the cost of safety. They can be fired safely, but in game terms, in the head of battle, you are considered to have a 1/6 chance that the operator is going to get a little over-excited. And over-heated doesn't necessarily mean dead, just out of combat. They could be a crispy meat bag, or just have an overheated gun which puts them out of combat.

And the Imperium is still producing plasma weaponry. Not lots, but they still produce it.

It's also not exactly all their own work

Retroengineered alien tech and Ctan inspiration, for example

n0t_u wrote:It's also likely it is in some bunker somewhere on Mars and entirely forgotten about.

Yes, a lot of it is, but not all of it.

In the end the point still stands, the Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau, but access is restricted. And that is why people typically place the Imperium above the Tau on the tech ladder.

IoM does value human life, just happens to be worth less than a Lasgun.

Ascalam wrote:It's also not exactly all their own work

Retroengineered alien tech and Ctan inspiration, for example

Neither is the Tau's. Their warp tech is reverse engineered from a crashed ship. Doesn't really matter where it comes from.

riplikash wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

It is more accurate to say the Imperium doesn't value human life and so allows their weaponry to be overloaded to increase damage output at the cost of safety. They can be fired safely, but in game terms, in the head of battle, you are considered to have a 1/6 chance that the operator is going to get a little over-excited. And over-heated doesn't necessarily mean dead, just out of combat. They could be a crispy meat bag, or just have an overheated gun which puts them out of combat.

And the Imperium is still producing plasma weaponry. Not lots, but they still produce it.

Hmm.. Source for that?

I seem to recall that being assigned the position of Plasma Gunner is generally considered to be tantemount to a firing squad, but the fluff could have moved on. I've not played IG in a few years. The IOM may have no regard for human life, but the gunner most certainly does, in most regiments.

I also seem to recall reading that the secret of making plasma weapons had been lost, but they could well have retconned that one too.

Tau allow there weapons to be overloaded and explode. The original rail rifle had the gets hot rule. It even came with a short little story of the an aun releasing the gun to production after seeing it kill it's user. It's not that the IoM dosen't care and the tau do. The tau just have the ability to fix the thing well the IoM dosen't.

Cryonicleech wrote:Necrons for sure.

On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium, on the other hand, turns something as simple as starting a Rhino or preparing a gun into a small ritual, complete with litanies, and not fully understanding WHY the ritual needs to take place. I mean, sure, it's an awesome concept as far as background goes, but at least the Tau have a full understanding of the technology that they use.

I guess that could be like someone in the middle ages who's an amazing archer and can hit a target from great distances. He knows everything about the art of archery and can readily create arrows. Some arrows can even bust through plate mail. Now imagine you have another person in the middle ages with an artillery piece. He may not understand what the heck he's doing, but all he knows is that if he completes the sacred ritual he can make things far away go boom

I'm not saying that the Tau and Imperium tech are like arrows and artillery, I'm just saying that they don't have to fully understand the tech to be more advanced. If that made any sense. It made sense when I practiced with myself

Ascalam wrote:
Hmm.. Source for that?

I seem to recall that being assigned the position of Plasma Gunner is generally considered to be tantemount to a firing squad, but the fluff could have moved on. I've not played IG in a few years. The IOM may have no regard for human life, but the gunner most certainly does, in most regiments.
I also seem to recall reading that the secret of making plasma weapons had been lost, but they could well have retconned that one too.

I'm going to have to turn that "source" question back around at you, I have never heard of the plasma gunner position being considered tantemount to a firing squad, but I have seen lots of instances where they are considered sacred, honored weapons used by special characters, inquisitors, nobles, chapter masters, and high level guardsman, both in novels and codexes. I also know they are typically described as being able to be fired regularly or 'overloaded', and that it is the overloaded situation which places you in danger.

As for the manufacturing, I know there are at least a few forge worlds renowned for being some of the few places left that can manufacture them. But I have also seen fluff describing them as a lost technology. In the end, the fluff will contradict, and you can choose what to believe. I suspect both are fairly true, the technology is as good as lost of only a few forgeworlds can produce them, and many plasma weapons out there may be suicidal to use, and the Imperium just doesn't care. But that doesn't mean quality versions don't exist.

Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

They are extremely powerful, and because life is cheap the slight chance of injury is quite acceptable. We have weapons today that can injure the wielder if they arn't careful yet they are still used. Just to give an example, don't fire any sort of recoiless weapon/weapon with backwash in an enclosed space(like a building) that doesn't have somewhere for the backwash unless you plan on being profoundly deaf.

Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used.


The Imperium is far superior technologically then the Tau Empire is, they just don't have a way to distribute that tech down all levels. The Tau have a pathetically tiny empire and relativly few soldiers. hence they are able to equip to a higher standard(but you will notice that Gue'vesa don't get Tau equipment and are stuck with Imperial weapons)

Imperial space ships are Warp Capable, have thicker armor, and mount a greater amount of weapons, most of which are Railguns. really big ones. The Imperium doesn't find it practical to put Railguns on tanks because a Railgun is a much less versitile weapon then an explosive shell. A railgun is either a solid slug that punches through armor or a Flechette AOE weapon. An explosive shell can do both, is simpler to manufacture, only has a marginal loss in effectivness, doesn't require a massive power supply to function, and can do both AT and crowd control with the same round(saving space)


Look at Power Armor compared to a XV8 suit. Both give the same amount of protection(3+ save), but the Power Armor is much more compact then the Battlesuit and it still has advanced targeting, communication, and medical systems for its wearer. The Battlesuit can carry heavy weapons like a man portable weapon, but that is simply by virtue of its size. And Space marines can still carry comperable weapons. Imperial Plasma guns are smaller AND more powerful then Tau and Eldar counterparts.

Grey Templar wrote:Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

I guess it could also be the case that the weapon is simply unusable as the cooling has failed.
The image of a marine strolling off to the tech marine with a charred plasma weapon isn't very grimdark though.

OK- did a little research,

MK I plasma weapons were prone to going boom. Earlier versions of the game had them actually explode as a blast template i think, when they overheated.? It's been a while. The 'honour' of being a plasmagunner being not so beneficial was from an earlier IG codex i think. I'll see if i can find my old dex.

Older fluff had it being a lost tech, with plasma weapons being incredibly rare, but apparently not any more.

The current plasmagun in use in the IOM is the MK 3 (forgefury?), apparently, which has better control systems, and shuts the gun down to cool and recharge between shots. The MK I had no such safeguards, and would often kill it's user and everyone standing nearby..

Amazing what you can find with a bit of googling

Thanks for that Ascalam, very informative. It is always interesting to find out where these vastly different interpretations of fluff come from.

'Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used. '

The Eldar prefer pistol sized Melta and Lance weapons for that side of things. It's likely that they could use mini-plasma weapons, but consider them crude

Blast Pistols ace Plasma pistols for battle-tank killing, and are slightly smaller

I agree with most (if not all) of what grey Templar has said, but I really don't want my thread to become another Tau vs. IOM Slug fest. Restrain yourselves and pick nice fights.

I don't believe that psychic powers should be brought to the table in this discussion. There are some fine lines with some factions such as craftworld eldar but we are trying to focus on tech, not magic.

I wouldn't vote for either the Iom myself or Tau. While Tau tech is advanced and improving, the story has not advanced far enough for them to be competing directly with the top tech faction eldar and crons yet. They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't?

I also wouldn't instantly omit Nids from the discussion ether. People say things like they're bugs, they don't have technology, but that’s wrong. They only exist because of there nutty good bio engineering abilities. I doubt that anyone has skill in that area better than any of the other factions.

'They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't? '

Orks can't, not since RT days of beercan Heavy Plasma Guns. I miss those keg-cannon

If we allow biotechnology to count as technology (I do) the Nids are way up there, if a bit focused on certain designs.

Lol. forgot orks, they specialise in the self destructing plasma gun, hence, no have been found.

If you count the KMB as being a plasma weapon (officially, it's not ) then it's more advanced than the IOM's one, since it's stronger (that was the main argument for the IOM's one being better than the Tau one, right? )

Personally i see it as firing a beam of pure orkiness

I like ork humer. There really should be a way to... improve the KMB, to make it consistantly killy and i don't meen the user.

Mount it on a Kan, or a Grot tank.

T-shirt saves plus Get's Hot otherwise gets ugly.

I would say the Shokk attack gun is pretty high up on the Tech scale..

A ork portable mini-webway generating device that the Orks in their infinite wisdom shoot crazed snotlings at their enemies..through the warp!

Yeah thats scary tech levels, orks plumb the depths of tech but their highs are pretty up there too. Tely-portas, lifta droppas. and such and yes I know the ork gestalt field helps it all work..but it still works.

I would also venture to say that the Tyranids are the top of the bio-engineered tech scale, they solve everything with bio-mass, and dont need a single scrap of other races techs..just their juicy tender bio mass..yum!

DeffDred wrote:

Got a referance for that?

I think you're confusing the Tau rail weapons with the Tau PLASMA weapons.

IoM has clumbsy plasma weapns that explode because they follow an outdated/incomplete STC. The Tau have a controlled/mastered technology of plasma weapons.

The main difference between the two is that the IoM is willing to let their soldiers die using plasma weapons. Tau have a high value on life.

I am not confusing Tau rail weapons with the Tau Plasma Weapons, I am talking about the Tau PLASMA weapons themselves.
Reference?
Read the codex.

Since I am lazy, I'll just rip some admittedly unreliable crap from Lexicanum. But it is something none the less.

The weapon fires a highly energised ball of hydrogen based plasma.

This is an Imperial plasma gun. It houses plasma, super heated hydrogen plasma. Very destructive, to the point that it is hotter then it needs to be to be considered plasma.

It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an accelerated particle breaks down as it leaves the barrel. The particle is accelerated by means of an induction field.

This is the Tau pulse rifle.
The 'particle' referred to here is a tungsten bullet for lack of a better term. It is accelerated to unbelievable speeds, generating a 'plasma pulse'. In other words, the Tau pulse rifle fires a bullet, that begins to break down into plasma, to the target. Eventually, it forms into a small ball of plasma, when it exits the barrel, it begins converting back into a gas losing energy as it flies through the air. In the end you get hit with a little bit of plasma. It will burn you, and probably more than likely kill you, but no where near the destructive level of the Imperial plasma gun.

The Tau cannot house plasma within their weaponry safely. They must generate it with the velocity of a tungsten round.