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riplikash wrote:

Which again leads us to the conclusion, based on your definition, that warp effects are not 'technology' as we understand the term.

riplikash wrote:

Which isn't to say that Orks don't have high level technology, their teleporters and shokk guns are great examples of their technological capabilites.

Ok, we can scratch those as tech capabilities if you want, though I don't think that is necessary.

Weather we are going to call it 'technology' really is going to depend on if it is reproducible, testable, and understandable based on the laws of the physical universe, which is why things like teleporters, doleman gates, and warp drive still fall under the purview of 'technology' while demon infested suits of armor, psy-weapons, and guns firing with no visible means don't, or at best can be called a mixture of technology and sorcery. Which is also why Warp drives are called tech, but warp navigation is not.

why on earth are nids eveen on this list! they do not even use technoligy so how can it be advance in any way. and to thing some people actually voted nids!

kshaw2000 wrote:why on earth are nids eveen on this list! they do not even use technoligy so how can it be advance in any way. and to thing some people actually voted nids!

To think that someone doesn't understand that bio-engineering is very advanced technology...

Admittedly it is stretching the definition of 'technology'. We don't consider dog or horse breeding a 'technology'. We don't consider frogs changing their sex to be 'technology.

It really isn't the application of knowledge about the physical universe, or advanced too use, which is typically what technology refers to.

Then you have the term 'bio-engineering', which is the application of engineering techniques to biology, e.g. the planning, measuring, and tool use that defines engineering. What they are doing clearly isn't biological engineering, it is biological adaptation. While the results might look the same, the methods are different.

And that is what it comes down to, really. It isn't to say what the tyrinids do is inferior to the technological approach, but it isn't the same either.

riplikash wrote:in 40k there is a distinct separation between warp effects (sorcery, magic, whatever), and it is generally accepted, in universe, that technology refer's to things relying on the latter, which is why you can have a mix of 'technology' and 'sorcery', instead of sorcery just being an extension of technology.

Why?

Technology is an application of science. You can scientifically study the warp. In fact, the Imperium does exactly this through the Ordos Hereticus and Malleus in specific, and the Scholastica Psykana in general.

As the entire rest of my post goes on to explain, scientific study cannot actually be applied to the vast majority of warp effects. Firstly because science is defined as the study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe, which already puts the warp on shaky ground.

Secondly because the basic assumptions of science upon which all other conclusions are based don't apply to the warp. If effects aren't universally reproducible, laws aren't consistent, and phenomena cannot be understood through observation, science cannot be applied. You can TRY, but you will fail, as the Imperium does whenever they attempt to. For 'warp tech' to succeed it always has to involve non-scientific approaches like rituals, which further bring it outside the purview of science for not having natural or logical reasons for their necessity.

Science needs to be universally applicable and predictable and not dependent on the observer.

riplikash wrote:As the entire rest of my post goes on to explain, scientific study cannot actually be applied to the vast majority of warp effects. Firstly because science is defined as the study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe

The warp is natural, and its effects can be felt on the physical.

riplikash wrote:If effects aren't universally reproducible

They are, psykers have a set of powers and effects that are consistently reproducible.

riplikash wrote:, laws aren't consistent

They are. Sorcerers use them consistently.

riplikash wrote: and phenomena cannot be understood through observation

We couldn't understand quantum physics for a while, and we still don't to a degree. But it's still a science.

Melissia wrote:They are, psykers have a set of powers and effects that are consistently reproducible.

It is one of the main points of psyker powers that they are NOT consistent. For game purposes this is simplified, but the fluff consistently states that warp effects are unpredictable and every use is slightly different. It is semi-predictable, and effects can be produced, but they can't necessarily be produced consistently, and you can never know for sure what the result of any action or warp effect will be. And that doesn't just come down to a lack of understanding of the laws it work, or at least that isn't the theory of the scientists of the Imperium and the Necrons. The laws and 'physics' of the warp change, and not in predictable ways.

It is flat out stated that the warp gods can change the basic laws of the warp on a whim. That is not science. Necron fluff makes a point that all the calculations and observations in the world can not necessarily predict the warp. Due to the warp even cause and effect can fall into disarray. Basic laws of physics like conservation of energy don't apply.

And that is why they consider sorcery and warp effects to be distinct from the science of the Materium.

They are. Sorcerers use them consistently.

They are not, they can, and do change, though usually subtly. It's semi-predictable, but not consistent.

We couldn't understand quantum physics for a while, and we still don't to a degree. But it's still a science.

But we have/had faith, or at least are making an educated guess, that since quantum physics are part of the material universe there are consistent laws governing their behavior and that we can discover the rules through observation. That is not not true of the warp.

Science is a too which can be used to understand our universe based on what we believe to be its nature, it isn't necessarily applicable to all possible universes. And it isn't just a pre-existing thing, like the laws of physics, it is a tool we created to discover truth. Before science the greeks had pure logical induction, and actually looked down on experimentation. We had various forms of mystisicm and religion, but they didn't produce a lot of knowledge about the physical universe, whatever their spiritual , survival, and ethical benefits may be.

So we came up with science, based on the assumption that laws don't change, physical laws govern behavior, and that we can discover those laws through observation. We decided things didn't just happen because some spirit or other said so, but because of the interaction of physical laws.

That just isn't how the warp works. It's laws bend to the whims of it's gods and denzis, and based on the emotional ementations from our universe. Mystisicm rules instead of science because asking, praying, ritualizing, and hoping really are better methods of survival and discovery than the scientific method.

Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

Polvilhovoador wrote:DE Codex says DE Tech is superior to CE's.

The Space Marine Codex says that Tigurius is as powerful a psyker as the Emperor. The Ork Codex says that they will soon unite and crush the galaxy. The Grey Knight Codex... ehhww...

You get my point. If the Dark Eldar has more advanced technology than the Craftworld Eldar, then the CE are royally screwed since the Dark Eldar are more numerous. Seriously, people seem very dedicated to giving all advantages to their race. Dark Eldar have more warriors and can revive themselves. The Craftworld Eldar has better tech and psychic powers. I'm not saying it's waaaay superior. They have a small edge, that is all. Things has to balance out, otherwise I really see no point in playing as Craftworld Eldar.

Melissia wrote:Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

That is an excellent way to put it, yes. It is a little different because, as you implied, if we could calculate every variable we might be able to predict economics or sociology. 4=2+2=(1+1)+(1+1), A=B=C. In the warp sometimes 1+1=/=2, and so the whole chain of logic falls apart..

There is another good indicator of their differences. It's not so much a proof, more of an indicative trend in their behaviors, a 'by their fruits shall you know them' situation. Science and engineering are progressive, combining proven results with more proven results to produce new effects. And so when science is being used you see growth over time as new rules are discovered and combined with other rules. Slings->Bows->guns-> artillery. An increase in power and understanding over time. (the Imperium is notable for NOT using the scientific method, a big reason why you don't see such a trend in them)

The warp does not work that way. Ones ability to produce effects isn't the result of knowledge applied, it is intrinsic, a result of will and being, and the whims of the warp gods. Humanities most powerful psyker came at the beginning of their history, not the end. Powerful psykers cannot be reliably produced. There is no 'grows over time' as you would expect from a scientific discipline. Again, not a proof, but indicative of the nature of the warp.

And so the division between "science and engineering" and "sorcery and ritual". They really are different, even if they may be comparable in their effects.

Now the thought occurs, perhaps that is a contributing reason for humanities current technological difficulties, and why they no longer rely on the scientific method. Their entire thought structure and approach to the universe revolved around science, much as ours does. Their very mind evolved in a physical environment. And suddenly they start emerging as a powerful psychic race. Tried and true rules (circuits transmit energy and don't suddenly become possessed by demons, 1+1=2 not 1+1=ITS CRAWLING IN MY SKIN!) have become erratic. As I mentioned earlier, the foundation of the scientific method is those 3-5 basic assumptions, and they work fine when you are firmly a being of the physical universe like the Necrons and the Tau.

But humanity suddenly wasn't, they were, at least partially, creatures of the warp. The foundation of their civilization and technology suddenly became unstable and untrustworthy, no wonder they look on it with suspicion. The Eldar and Orks, in contrast, have always been creatures of both worlds, and merge them seamlessly. Humanity still hasn't figured out how to cope. In a way they have been thrown back to the stone age, or even the amphibian age, having to learn how to deal with the universe in a way totally alien. But where amphibians had millions of years to figure out the world of land, humanity was just dumped into the world of the warp.

Just an interesting though.

How dose all that relate with warp based technology?

nomotog wrote:How dose all that relate with warp based technology?

Warp based 'technology' is typically described as being a mixture of sorcery and technology, and are used to combine the effects of the warp and physical universe. Things like geller fields, psy-bullets and the like use technology as a foundation for their effects, but augment it with sorcery at the point where predictable, physical laws fail.

Which is why the Necrons and Tau are unable to produce it. Without the magical rituals, blood sacrifices, and application of sheer willpower necessary to bend the warp to do what they want it to do, they cannot reproduce the effects. The effects are at least partially dependent on who is producing them, not just the physical laws being applied.

Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

illuknisaa wrote:Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

In the last codex, it was stated that Gauss Tech was "Theoretically impossible" by someone in the Imperium.

riplikash wrote:

Melissia wrote:Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

That is an excellent way to put it, yes. It is a little different because, as you implied, if we could calculate every variable we might be able to predict economics or sociology. 4=2+2=(1+1)+(1+1), A=B=C. In the warp sometimes 1+1=/=2, and so the whole chain of logic falls apart..

No it doesn't, it just means we have yet to understand why, in the warp, sometimes 1+1 != 2.

You haven't studied Quantum Theory much, have you?

If we can have an entire science around Quantum Theory, we can have one around the warp.

And let's not even get in to String Theory.

Melissia wrote:
You haven't studied Quantum Theory much, have you?

Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree. And one of the most interesting things about quantum theory is we don't know if the scientific method will ever be able to crack it, though we hope it will. When observation alters the results of the test it puts the scientific method, which relies first and foremost on observation, on very shaky ground.

If we can have an entire science around Quantum Theory, we can have one around the warp.

There is a huge flaw in that logic. Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet, we just have some interesting results and even more interesting hypothesis about how we got them. Secondly, Quantum physics is still part our our universe, so it is at least a good bet that it acts in a similar manner to the rest of our universe and can therefore be understood through observation.

The warp is a different reality and there is no reason it needs to conform to the assumptions of our reality. Other universes don't have to be consistent in their laws the way ours seems to be. The warp is defined by chaos, by an absence of absolute rules. Considering that, and how often we are told the warp is incalculable and changing, and that all the greatest scientific minds of the 40k universe consider it incalculable, there is much more evidence supporting the warp being an incalculable universe than a calculable one. But people get too wrapped up in the assumptions our universe has supporting and don't understand they aren't necessarily be pan-universal assumptions.

And let's not even get in to String Theory.

As for string theory, it is...well not garbage, but unsubstantiated fluff, much closer to ancient Greek style mental theorizing than true science, an inductive leap rather than a deductive theory. And it should really be called string hypothesis and no experiments or counter hypothesis have been tested against it. It is fun to think about but it isn't science. It doesn't get discussed in serious scientific journals for a reason.

riplikash wrote:Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree.

Ah, how believable a claim...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

riplikash wrote:Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet

Just like our understanding of the warp.

Melissia wrote:

riplikash wrote:Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree.

Ah, how believable a claim...

Now your are just being petty. I'm a software engineer, my profile has said so for years, and of course I have a CS degree. To graduate you have to do a senior thesis and a senior project, each has to be on a subject not covered buy the curriculum. I chose quantum encryption and hive intelligence respectively. That's the kind of thing you do in college. Not everyone on the internet is a teenager. Anyways, I'm the one who has evidenced knowledge of the subject and it's implications, while you just threw out buzz words like 'quantum' and 'string theory' without actually explaining what they have to do with anything..

riplikash wrote:Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet

Just like our understanding of the warp.

Not understanding two different things does not make them equivalent in complexity or difficulty. I went over it in my previous posts, which I'm beginning to suspect you don't read in their entirety. Quantum mechanics is a part of our own universe we don't understand, and't aren't sure if science can unlock. I don't see how that fact implies in any way that the scientific method is applicable to the warp.

riplikash wrote:
Not understanding two different things does not make them equivalent in complexity or difficulty. I went over it in my previous posts, which I'm beginning to suspect you don't read in their entirety. Quantum mechanics is a part of our own universe we don't understand, and't aren't sure if science can unlock. I don't see how that fact implies in any way that the scientific method is applicable to the warp.

But I think there are strong implications that some laws of physics, at least, DO apply to the Warp; or if the ones we're familiar with don't, there are others which do, and the Imperium knows of and and can interact with at least some of them. There are numerous pieces of Warp-related technology that are quite well understood and just as reliable as any technology ever is; psychic hoods and Gellar fields are two that spring immediately to mind. Everything is, of course, somewhat confused by the fact that the Imperium at large isn't very scientific about ANY technology, but I think they deal just as rationally with Warp-related technology as they do with, say, armored vehicles.

illuknisaa wrote:Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

No one can figure out how ork tech works because it doesn't work, It is just piles of random stuff formed to resemble whatever its supposed to be which is then animated in the appropriate fashion by ork belief channeled through the waagh field. So if an ork doesn't have it, then its no better than a gun shaped stick as I do believe in the ork codex it says ork weapons only works in ork hands.

And if you really want to know how gauss weaponry works here http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gauss_weapon#.TxpV_YGVP0E

I have a strange thought. If in the warp, there's no gravity, why do most daemons have legs?

ot: I realllllly cant see any reason to support ork tech. Cool it works ok, but its basicly held together by the minds of thousands assuming it works. Thats not good tech. Necrons have weapons that I would trust, If i wasn't scared to death of them

Ledabot wrote:I have a strange thought. If in the warp, there's no gravity, why do most daemons have legs?

Because they need them to swarm into reality, where there is gravity.

It's because the laws of physics are different in the warp, but they are not wholly without their own internal logic.

Ledabot wrote:ork tech [is] basicly held together by the minds of thousands assuming it works.

No it's not. Ork tech works in the hands of non-orks with no orks present.

All the ork presence does is make it work more reliably.

Someone is of course going to bring up that magos genetor quote, but I reiterate-- for one, he's a magos genetor. He is one who studies genetics, not engineering. For two, he's AdMech. The official position of the AdMech is essentially that non-humanmade technology doesn't actually work. A more unreliable narrator could hardly be asked for.

In contrast, in the tabletop game (kroot mercenaries being the canon example), in black library (Several instances, including the Cain book 4), and in the FFG roleplaying series (most notably rogue trader), Ork tech works in the hands of non-orks. Just not as efficiently as it does in the hands of Orks.

to support Melissia's above point..

In Gorka Morka, diggas ( feral humans) used ork weapons and basic tech with no problems.

the Armageddon Ork fighters codex entry ( way back in 3rd ed ) the IG ork fighters used Ork shootas, sluggas and big shootas ( since they were forced to use the enemies weapons due to being cut off from resupply.)
and the only change was the IG went from a BS 3 to a BS 2 when using orky weapons.

A little add-on to 'Nid technology:

Tyranids have no mechanical technology, and instead harness and advanced form of biotechnology to create organic equivalents of the tools, fuels, ammunition and weaponry used by other races. Indeed, it may be argued that the most sophisticated of technologies and manufacturing techniques utilised by the other races of the galaxy pale in comparsion to the organisms created by the Tyranids.

Quoted from the Tyranid codex (pg 7), because i think the bugs are grossly underpresented in this topic ... Because you know, these guys developed a nigh-total immunity against the super-duper high-tech Tau pulse and ion weaponry.

Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

Melissia wrote:Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

It was nigh-immunity. The Tau had to abandon their pulse/ion weaponry, so i guess it wasn't just some random armor.

AtoMaki wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

It was nigh-immunity. The Tau had to abandon their pulse/ion weaponry, so i guess it wasn't just some random armor.

You know what bugs me about that. They abandoned there pulse weapons for kroot rifles that are also pulse weapons.