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Just some food for thought for those that never thought about the whole mind control angle and like it, when the tau first meet the vespid the had the communication helms constructed to bypass the language barrier. They gave these helms to all the ruling class of vespid who immediately agreed to join the greater good.

To be honest I like the tau, and think they have that rotten grimdark center, but also like the Farsight declares war idea. Just have him do so, but not actually succeeding yet. Gives them a reason to fight on the tabletop and also creates some internal strife. It could prove very interesting.

Tadashi wrote:They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

DarbNilbirts wrote:Just some food for thought for those that never thought about the whole mind control angle and like it, when the tau first meet the vespid the had the communication helms constructed to bypass the language barrier. They gave these helms to all the ruling class of vespid who immediately agreed to join the greater good.

Of course the less grimdark interpretation is that the idea of the Greater Good is quite appealing to an insect hive society which already operates on a similar principle.
Once the language barrier was broken it wasn't suprising that the Vespid joined the Greater Hiv..erm, Greater Good

Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Cannon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Canon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Games Workshop was required to approve all fluff based aspects of the game.
And the Communism/Utilitarianism thing doesn't really apply. The point is what fanatics are willing to do for that cause.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Canon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Games Workshop was required to approve all fluff based aspects of the game.
And the Communism/Utilitarianism thing doesn't really apply. The point is what fanatics are willing to do for that cause.

Well even if you do believe DOW cannon you have to take it with a grain of salt, because it is all being seen from an Imperial point of view, and its not like they are bias or anything And your right they are fanatics, but not commie fanatics. And it kind of does apply because you didn't call them commies in your first post. Just saying.

Both the Tau and the imperium, and everyone for the matter, are fanatical for their ideals/religion/way of life, so you can really hold that against them when its par for the course. Tau have a "good" image due to their default response not being to just kill everything else but them, which is kinda unique in 40k, especially as something that spans the whole race and not just factions.

Once more:

Gav Thorpe wrote:With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

There is no such thing as a "fact" in this franchise. Only various different interpretations acting as suggestions.
An example: It's nice that GW might take a look at THQ's games, but arguably that didn't prevent the appearance of a different 2nd Company Master in the Space Marine game, or certain "weird" weapons and their usage. GW also looks at Black Library novels and still you get Goto's Lasermarines and similar stuff. What GW does is provide suggestions and answer questions, basically supporting the people working with their license. What GW does not do is check evere minute detail on how it meshes with their own version of the 'verse:

Gav Thorpe wrote:In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

... and that's precisely why there is so much conflicting information between the various books and games of this franchise. Including the Tau's portrayal in DoW.

Gav Thorpe wrote:The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books.

Note I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm merely pointing out it is just one way to portray them. It's not the ultimate one.

Brother Coa wrote:Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

... until a Farsight pupil came and did a massacre, for which he was sacked immediately. Read the context: We are talking about the massacre happy Farsight followers and the rest of the Tau (that Tadashi wants to wake up and be massacre happy as well).

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.

Simple facts: No. See the designer notes I quoted in this thread and the source in my sig for the commie thing.
BTW if the Tau were fantatics, they would have a massive warp presence which they haven't.

Even if you consider all campaign ending of the non-GW game to be canon at the same time (meaning that this planet is owned by humans, Tau, Necrons, Orks, Chaos AND Eldar), the Imperial narrator in the Tau ending is speculating, why men and women living in separate camps have less children than men and women living together. Beside sterilization, there is a much simpler natural explanation (ask Mom and Dad about it ).

AtariAssasin wrote:What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

The most well known example right now is in Codex: Grey Knights.

The Jokaero are a Xeno race that is an Imperial protectorate.

Kroothawk and Coa are just being trolls when they claim that I am making gak up and lying about the background. But trolling is pretty much normal for them in Tau threads, so I'm not at all surprised.

Brother Coa wrote:Seriously people, where is your sense of humor?

I would have a sense of humor if you weren't calling me a liar the moment I looked away from the thread.

Go dive in to the drops at an ork camp.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Seriously people, where is your sense of humor?

I would have a sense of humor if you weren't calling me a liar the moment I looked away from the thread.

Go dive in to the drops at an ork camp.

I am sorry, I don't understand. When did I call you a liar?


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KingDeath wrote:
Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

That's codex Tau, I read in "Cities of Death" that main reason he was recalled from the front is because his troops started to kill civilians. That shocked the Etherials so they recalled him to T'au. This shows that even the Etherials sometimes have difficulty to control their own commanders. But I admit I exaggerated a little, they didn't kill all of the civilians in the end.


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Kroothawk wrote:
... until a Farsight pupil came and did a massacre, for which he was sacked immediately. Read the context: We are talking about the massacre happy Farsight followers and the rest of the Tau (that Tadashi wants to wake up and be massacre happy as well).

And I know that, I am just staying on OP and give a prof that Tau can be grimdark to in some aspects.

It was kroothawk that said it, but you're basically grouped iwth him anyway at this point.

My thread has grown to 4 pages...I'm so proud!

Fralethepalewhale wrote:My thread has grown to 4 pages...I'm so proud!

Good that we at least make someone happy

Melissia wrote:It was kroothawk that said it, but you're basically grouped with him anyway at this point.

Uh, I am not. He is still calling this whole thread "Tau butcher party" and I am still trying to prove that Tau are grimdark and evil even if he is trying his best to ignore me and to break down my theory. In addition to that I am still defending the Imperium.
The only thing i am agreeing with him is DoW cannon, endings from Marines and Guard is DC and SS are real ones and all others should be discounted. And as for your point of sterilization and camps I agree with you because that thing is also mentioned in a Inquisitorial report in "Deathwatch", even if Tau fans claim that there is little evidence to this and it's likely an Imperial propaganda.

And next time please don't quote me for something I didn't said, it makes me unpleasant.

Does it actually say in Deathwatch that Tau use sterilization?

Not exactly, the report just mentioned that in a some amount of time Human population declined on a planet with no logical explanation at all. Sterilization is the only logical answer to it, that or Humans on that planet decided to move deeper into Tau Empire in large number.

Could also be a result of prosperity, if one wished to give it a positive spin. History and contemporary census data have shown that humanity seems to reproduce faster the more miserable its situation is. Just look to Africa compared to, say, Germany where population is currently in decline.

Probably a natural reaction designed to counterbalance more a greater mortality rate amongst the populace with more children - many of them won't survive as they'd only make the situation worse, but the continued existence of the species is assured as population numbers continue to grow.

Conversely, in 1st world nations, lots of people get too lazy or too busy to bother with children or even relationships. As the need to have a large family (to have the kids help with the workload) subsides, procreation turns from necessity into luxury.

Or maybe the Tau simply have some sort of policy that limits the amount of children a family can have, like - y'know - China (funny sidenote: enter "China" and "greater good" into google and see how many results pop up).

Or maybe there really is forced sterilization, not because the Tau wish to eradicate the human species (which they did not do with the others already part of their Empire either) but simply as a means to optimize population numbers, all for the Greater Good.

... it could be any number of things, and I think people need to realize that each of these options is just as viable as the next. Especially as the sources are not consistent and tend to contradict each other all the time.

It's true what you say about 1st world nations. They tend to have negative population growth and rely on immigartion to increase their population. However, do we know how long a period of time this obsever noticed the population decline? If it was not over several generations then that explanation is probably not why.

Maybe the tau really did wipe out the humans. For the GG of coarse. It might be that the tau consider humans a violent illogical race with few few positive qualities and with how the IoM acts they could be right. Think of the day the earth stood still, only without the good ending.

It dose seem to be that the tau like humans the least of everyone.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:However, do we know how long a period of time this obsever noticed the population decline? If it was not over several generations then that explanation is probably not why.

Aye, that's a good question.

Of course, forced sterilization or even just a simple law takes some time to leave noticeable results, too. In this light, it might also be worth knowing whether those observers have infiltrated the databanks of the colony and "stolen" census data for comparison, or if they simply noticed there's fewer people on the streets. Which, for what it's worth, might also be some sort of curfew or part of a relocation program from the cities to other regions of the planet - or the other way around.

I actually remember suggesting empty streets and a "suspiciously clean environment" to a DH or DW GM who inquired about how to portray a Tau-controlled world, to give it a "creepy" spin, heh.

Personally, I'm still undecided on the whole sterilization thing, possibly because I tend to gravitate towards the aforementioned "happy medium" between communist paradise and malicious tyranny. I think I prefer the version where it gets applied on a limited scale as a measure to "balance" population numbers.

nomotog wrote:Maybe the tau really did wipe out the humans.

As always, this seems to depend on which source you look at.

This was on GW's Gue'vesa article:

"These humans, often the descendants of troops captured or abandoned during the abortive Damocles Crusade, now live and fight alongside the Tau. For them, fate has dictated that the Imperial Creed and the rule of the Adeptus Terra be replaced by loyalty to the collectivist Tau empire and to the ruling Ethereal caste. [...] The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade."

Naturally, there would be no offspring if sterilization would have been employed.

Those are actually two cases years apart. It's likely the tau like humans less and less with each war.

Essentially, the Tau are nice just like Orks are funny, what they do is abhorrent by today's standards, but in the setting they're good relative to everyone else, just like Ork violence is funny in the setting. The Tau may brainwash people, sterilise them and once war has been declared to mercilessly butcher folks. But compare this to the virus bombing of hive cities, the callous expenditure of human life through forlorn hope charges and the destruction of whole planets as part of a scorched earth policy, methods employed by the Imperium, inflicted upon ITSELF. Or the harvesting of life with weapons that strip you down layer by layer or flay you in seconds, the general KILL! MAIM! BURN! thing going for Chaos, the sick b******s of the DE (I won't even delve into what they get up to), the general savagery of the Orks, the blood lust and human sacrifice of the Eldar and the imminent doom that is the Tyranids. Compared to these, the Tau are like rubber ducks.

nomotog wrote:Those are actually two cases years apart. It's likely the tau like humans less and less with each war.

That would be one option, yeah. On the other hand, the article also mentioned how respected the Gue'vesa became to be amongst the Tau over these very same years, so it would seem that any such sentiment would not be cast upon humanity as a whole. At least as far as the writers at GW are concerned, anyhow.

Brave New World was a book that predicted that society would be ruined by things we enjoy, unlike 1984 which predicted the opposite. There was no suffering, no unhappiness but also no love. If someone died, no one would miss them. There wasn't anything. The Tau sound more like a Hindu society with expansionist ambitions. They're grimdark in the sense that their leaders are beyond reproach. But, as you very well know, there are worse things than Tau lurking amongst the stars, so that knocks them down a few notches on the grimdark scale.

Lynata wrote:That would be one option, yeah. On the other hand, the article also mentioned how respected the Gue'vesa became to be amongst the Tau over these very same years, so it would seem that any such sentiment would not be cast upon humanity as a whole. At least as far as the writers at GW are concerned, anyhow.

Still not respected enough to be put in leadership positions, which wouldn't really leave humans satisfied, heh.


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Brother Coa wrote:And next time please don't quote me for something I didn't said, it makes me unpleasant.

I didn't quote you at all, so you can be quiet now

Brother Coa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:
Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

That's codex Tau, I read in "Cities of Death" that main reason he was recalled from the front is because his troops started to kill civilians. That shocked the Etherials so they recalled him to T'au. This shows that even the Etherials sometimes have difficulty to control their own commanders. But I admit I exaggerated a little, they didn't kill all of the civilians in the end.

As i have already mentioned in my post, Cities of Death (p.56-57) does NOT mention any civilian casualties. In fact it doesn't even mention that Brightsword was recalled to T'au.