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That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm rather new to the game as a whole and I was trying to figure out alternative ways to get "reliable" firepower without having to rely too much on markerlights (even as awesomely helpful as they are).

I was trying hard to justify crisis suits with them (so I could know what I'm running my next crisis team I build as) but when stealth suits provide double the shots as well as a built in cover save it starts to get stupid.

I've been playing against MEQ armies mostly and I find the inital burst from the stealth suits helps chew up a MEQ squad enough for a fireknife team to come by and put them out of their misery.

I love Stealth Suits ( I've dubbed mine Silverfish, painted as close to chrome as I can get and I'm waiting for some water effect to arrive in the post for me to dip them in. )

My problem is this:
By the numbers, a squad of 6 Stealth Suits with a markerlight and team leader is 200pts, with 18 pulse shots and an effective threat range of 24", or 15 shots at 24" +1 Markerlight.
The other thing is, while it's a bit more durable, you also lose 3 shots for every wound taken.

The 200pts of Fire Warriors is 20 pulse shots at 36" or 40 at 21", and you only lose 1-2 shots per wound.

Unless the Stealth Suits are now worth their 30pts each and really ARE that survivable now

Shove your commander in there with some shield drones - Basically they are immortal bubblewrap for your warlord so he doesnt die and give up a victory point or two, as well as being quite good in withering down squads for fireknifes as mentioned earlier. Also with closest wound allocation, if you happen to the MEQ Sergeant takign wounds, you could have a fleeing marine unit (take them down a level with LD with the marker), as they will be LD7 without their leader This can make valuable space between them, and you, particularly good against death company, but not guaranteed, guaranteed however if you're running like 5 ML shots on them tho ;p

mm, just need to have it join the squad turn 1, I can see that.

Orkaswampa wrote:Shove your commander in there with some shield drones - Basically they are immortal bubblewrap for your warlord so he doesnt die and give up a victory point or two, as well as being quite good in withering down squads for fireknifes as mentioned earlier. Also with closest wound allocation, if you happen to the MEQ Sergeant takign wounds, you could have a fleeing marine unit (take them down a level with LD with the marker), as they will be LD7 without their leader This can make valuable space between them, and you, particularly good against death company, but not guaranteed, guaranteed however if you're running like 5 ML shots on them tho ;p

What about running a small unit of Gun Drones, Kroot or Firewarriors. Give the Suites mobile cover save for a round, not sure if it would be worth the cost. 12 Kroot would be almost the cost of another 3 stealth suits, or 9 firewarriors, or 7 Gun Drones. I would also give the suites some Gun Drones for spare wounds. I think it would work well, drop a stealth team in with a seperate squad of Gundrones behind enemy lines, if they are keeping their "valuable" troops in the rear you can suprise them, leave the drones as a speed bump and hop away to harass some more.

Best way to spend 200pts on Stealthsuits would be 4 with DC and 8 Gun Drones. Would Increase the total number of wounds in the squad to 12(vs. 6) and the total # of shots to 20(vs 18) with 8 of them twin-linked for overwatch and add pinning.

I chose this setup to run with a fireknife team and another XV8 team with other stuff, but here:


Shas’el /w Plasma Rifle + Burst Cannon + HW MT + HW BSF + VRS – 96
6x Stealth Suits /w Team Leader + ML + 12x Gun Drones – 315

You burst cannon and pulse carbine the squad to death, then when the special hidden at the back is there, you plasma his face. The shas'el is giving the squad H&R (currently unsure if this works or not with VRS), and gives the squad nightfighting. Don't forget the squads markerlight, matherhammed this kills like 7.5 marines a turn or something.

Taking the drones is better than taking a drone squad, as a drone squad is another victory point if they are tarpitting whereas these arent

Don't bother bubble wrapping with fire warriors, thats just making your suits a much nicer target for a template / ghazghkull in a trukk Position firewarriors away from the suits in a position that they can flank enemy units going to the suits. Make a trap. Anticipate their target, feed it to them, then put them down with your warriors, the burst cannon buffet, and a fireknife team Run away like a kitten in following assault phase, like a true tau.

Yes its interesting with the new increased movement across the board I think many old-school gunlines might not be viable. Mobility seems to be at the heart of 6th which is why our 2d6 jetpack move could be so useful, and stealthsuits could finally be a viable choice.

Having looked at the rules a bit more, I really do think Tau have some good tools to deal with hordes now. The AFP is seriously buffed by the wound allocation rules for ordinance. Our move and fire with fire warriors just gave us capability to start hitting at 36in effective range. Most importantly multi assaults, that bane of all Tau, will happen less often because of the disorganised assault rules plus overwatch. And of course we still have the best anti-tank gun in the game in the form of the railgun.

I do have a slight worry regarding psychic powers. Some of them look really good, and we have no access below 2k (a pv I rarely play at or above). Might this be the biggest 6th ed handicap for Tau?

Not really, psykers are just railgun food

If a librarian is the biggest enemy threat, it will be the first model to die, thats how tau works, eliminate the biggest threats to your army in priority order, so turn 1 that libby is getting crisis'd in the face. Wouldnt it be cool if AFP caused fateweaver to flee off board?

@ ovion the big thing with steath suits was the stealth field gen rules change. A 2+ cover save for the unit is pure gold-dust. Stealth suits problems were always about survivability. The new rules essentially put them near the top tier of units in the codex (not withstanding a direct hit from a battlecannon - but then a battlecannon IDs crisis suits anyway).

One thing that hasn't changed this edition is that crisis suits get annihilated by ML spam. I have a regular SM opponent who always takes 7-10MLs and in 5th ed. my suits were always dead by T3. This has not changed, in fact cover going to 5+ makes it more likely in 6th.

i think the 6 stealth suit and double commander setup would survive many many missile launchers with 2+ save, and kill the missile launchers

My friend who plays tau came up with this interesting combo. Take Imhotek plus a squad of immortals for your allies. Then you have black sun filters which ignore the effects of night fighting and you only have to give one to one member of the squad to benefit from the USR. Let me tell you not being able to shoot back and getting shot up is not a fun experience.

tedbpb wrote:My friend who plays tau came up with this interesting combo. Take Imhotek plus a squad of immortals for your allies. Then you have black sun filters which ignore the effects of night fighting and you only have to give one to one member of the squad to benefit from the USR. Let me tell you not being able to shoot back and getting shot up is not a fun experience.

It's been considered by multiple people and we actually have a discussion about that in this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461460.page

The long story short, the lightning affects your tau units as well. Doesn't work as nicely when that fact is learned.

Yeah, turn one you roll for units and about 1/3 of your suits die :(
He costs too much also. Better have ghazghkull for that price, at least he can solo most of your army (2++ turns 2/3)

@orkswampa Yep just wish I'd had access to such a useful unit in 5th ed. At least now I can enjoy lording it over ML spam!

I think the stealth suit issue isn't survivability, it's about power/cost ratio. And now that Firewarriors can move and shoot, you have a much more affordable means of providing S5 weaponry. Stealth suits offer nothing that the rest of the army can't provide cheaper.

Oh! Sweet! My stealth suits have a 2+ cover in terrain. I'll just keep them here and DO NOTHING.

@savage How about infiltrating them 18 away, then blasting away 30 S5 shots from turn 1, protected by a 2+ cover save, with the ability to scoot 2d6 away when things get hot? Then when you attempt tp charge them you get hit with 30 shots, 12 of which are TL. They are also now far more likely to escape from a close combat as they escape at drone I4.

The steath fluff has always been about harassing and distracting the enemy, and the new rules mean they can finally be used like this in the game.

@Savageconvoy

Shas’el /w Plasma Rifle + Burst Cannon + HW MT + HW BSF + VRS – 96
6x Stealth Suits /w Team Leader + ML + 12x Gun Drones – 315
Stealth Suit Shas’el Mandem = Average 7.5 Dead Marines

Actually, they'll sit in their 2+ Cover, killing alot of marines

Overwatch with squad = Average 1.6 Dead

So that's your average assault squad, with 1 Marine to take you on in close combat.

Math cannot lie! Most of the time! Stealth Suits gooood. At 1750+ it is recommended to stick another shas'el in there, with shield drones iridium armour etc etc etc, give them something uber tough as well as ramp it up to 10 dead marines on average

As to the Jet Pack movement, GW has suprised me with putting something in the BRB that I have asked for.

On pages 425 & 426, In the summary section, GW has included unit movement charts. They are not the ones of old but they are there.
Now these charts may have some conflicts but right now, I can't see any with the Jet Packs.

By the charts, Jet Pack Infantry move 0-6", can run or shoot and then may still assault 2d6 whether on foot or using their Jet Packs


Now the down side of the stealth suits.

They are T3 and will be in the majority.(Maybe 3 Stealth suits with Team lead having a drone, then joined to Termi-suit commander[2+save} w/ 2 sheild drones and a H&R Commander. Not as much fire power but more cost effective and an average Toughness of 4)

We do not yet know if the 6th ed restructuring will drastically reduce the number of vehicles.

The Commander/Stealth suit set-up while good at killing av 10, is not very effective at killing AV 11+. You are still sacrificing an elite slot.


Alternatively, you can combine a H&R Commander with a Tank Commander w/Shield drones and join them to 4 Gundrones for a much smaller points investment.
This leaves the unit at T4 and leaves the player free to kit their commanders with different weapons rather than trying to make them match the Stealth teams.

Down side of teaming with the gundrones.

You don't get the cover save you would with the stealth suits and you sacrifice a FA slot.

*Idea* When Taking Piranha, disembark the drones first turn and join the commanders to them?
Might be worth looking into.

Will post more in a bit.

Later,
ff

Or you could get crisis suits with better equipment, slap a bunch of gun drones on them, and kill more marines for cheaper. I just don't see them as anything devastating. And if they really want to be a harassing unit, they need a weapon that can't be ignored and S5 AP5 doesn't cut it.

I guess I'm just being negative, stealth suits can do some good and I know a lot want to use them. Now that they are a survivable S5 shooter, I guess they could be a good harassment unit.

Iridium armor might be a pretty good stopgap against battlecannons. They don't get the barrage hit allocation rule, so a 2+ save Commander can tank a blast by joining a unit of Crisis Suits. Not advisable to run out in the open against Leman Russes of course, but sometimes you have no choice.

Double ninja'd (sorta)
@ Savage: How so? S5 AP5 is enough to cut down light infantry (and with markerlights this includes squads in cover), you can put out enough volume of shots from a small model count, light vehicles can be glanced to death, the cover save makes them even harder to kill, and their mobility means you are more likely to be out of the way of the main push towards your lines, and means your opponents have to worry about rear armor shots a lot more.
Don't forget the fusion blaster is also only 2pts, and you don't ignore one of those.

Savageconvoy wrote:Or you could get crisis suits with better equipment, slap a bunch of gun drones on them, and kill more marines for cheaper. I just don't see them as anything devastating. And if they really want to be a harassing unit, they need a weapon that can't be ignored and S5 AP5 doesn't cut it.

I guess I'm just being negative, stealth suits can do some good and I know a lot want to use them. Now that they are a survivable S5 shooter, I guess they could be a good harassment unit.

The drones idea is more to add tacticle flexibility.

Instead of trying to turn one of your crisis teams into a bodyguard that has a tendency to hang back and protect the commander,
or has to be geared to where the team matches/compliments the commanders equipment,
you design your crisis teams to perform their jobs in a cost effective manner.

Then design your commanders to fit several different teams and join them to the units that best fit the opponents that you are facing.

Ok, I'm wondering why some people are putting a marker light on the stealth team leader. AFAIK it's not networked, so the squad can't use it and if you're using them as an up front unit like this I would have thought you'd want to be using his normal weapons to boost the firepower of the unit?

Thrawn2600 wrote:Just saying, drones got way better overall.

With closest to furthest shooting, drone controllers are awesome!

Drone up your steal suits, they become 50 points each, but are basically 3 wounds eternal warriors. (just keep the drones in the front and boom good luck shooting at the actual stealsuits and the carry around 4+ cover!!!)

+3 cover save actually, +2 from shrouded and +1 from stealth field. In the Tau FAQ it says that stealth suits benefit both shrouded and stealth rules and the BRB says that both rules are cumulative, going up to +2 for cover save!

Avro wrote:

Thrawn2600 wrote:Just saying, drones got way better overall.

With closest to furthest shooting, drone controllers are awesome!

Drone up your steal suits, they become 50 points each, but are basically 3 wounds eternal warriors. (just keep the drones in the front and boom good luck shooting at the actual stealsuits and the carry around 4+ cover!!!)

+3 cover save actually, +2 from shrouded and +1 from stealth field. In the Tau FAQ it says that stealth suits benefit both shrouded and stealth rules and the BRB says that both rules are cumulative, going up to +2 for cover save!

And if they are in the open they have a 4+ cover minimum all the time, which is what he was saying. I quite enjoy this as its like getting the shield generator for free against most non melee attacks.
I think there may still be some use still in the fusion blaster on stealth suits, instead of just hammering light infantry and harassing light vehicles, they can be a real threat to any vehicle. If you go the gun drone route the fusion guy is still putting out 2 S5 shots a turn. This might also be worth out flanking them, to have the "look a distraction" effect pop of mid game that they haven't seen and been running around since turn 1. Also if I read this right you can take an IC with the squad while out flanking, just not infiltrating.

Didn't Thrawn800 say he placed stealth suits behind drones to grant him the automatic and natural +5 cover save from oncoming ranged attacks? Or did I miss read that?....

I don't think target lock is gone for vehicles. Wording in the tau faq says "This piece of wargear no longer has any effect."
Target lock for vehicles is an upgrade, not a wargear (page 30 in codex).

Jadenim wrote:Ok, I'm wondering why some people are putting a marker light on the stealth team leader. AFAIK it's not networked, so the squad can't use it and if you're using them as an up front unit like this I would have thought you'd want to be using his normal weapons to boost the firepower of the unit?

Marker Drones "are" Networked. Though they really do nothing in Snap shot or overwatch.

Imo, Marker drones are still overcosted and not for semi-comp to competitive play.

Wondering, with the cover save reduction on most things, if the old zero markerlights lists will work? Spend those points that went to pathfinders on piranhas or something else.

Unlikely Captain, fire warriors can now bring down some hurt, and those broadsides and crisis suits will still want the +1 BS bonuses.
Vehicles still get their target lock
As the rules favour a footsloggers list, markerlights will be as important as before.
A unit of 6 pathfinders w/ devilfish and upgrades only costs ~160pts, less than a fully kittted out hammerhead or a 3 man of crisis or broadsides.
The other fast slots cant really compete with the buffs from the markerlights

Markerlights just don't cut it. Pathfinders die far too easily and drone markerlights cost far too much.

Instead of buying markerlights, get Eldrad with the divination abilites and a guardian jetbike squad for last turn objective denial, all for 300 points.

Then watch Eldrad "guide"* 2 units per turn and if you fortunate enough to get either remove enemy cover saves power or force then to re-roll their saving throws power, your in business. The best part is that because of the duration on those abilities, they are still active on your opponents turn and can be used for overwatch..

Lets not forget that Farseers are the best psychic denial in the game. For small games >1500, you can replace Eldrad with a cheap Farseer .
* note that I am referring to the divination re-roll to hit power and not the guide ability from the eldar codex, I just call it guide for simplicity