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 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

This is a ridiculous premise.

It's foolish to buy something when you don't want all of the contents even if buying that package is cheaper than just buying the things that you want?

You'd better tell that to all of the people that have been buying the getting started bundles despite not wanting all of the contents.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

My Prius came with airbags. Am I a fool for not using them yet?

That's how silly you sound.

I couldn't give a monkey's about the 'game'. got two boxes never even looked at the rules/tiles/etc. same with Assassinorum and I'll do the same with Deathwatch. Don't have time to spend on all the various offshoot games! Minis are cheaper in this format so thanks GW.

I don't get why this is really even an issue?

It got to four pages. I'm still kind of lost. Like is this just a cry for help in getting more people to play the game inside the box? Because wouldn't it be easier to just ask someone to play it with you once or twice and get a little group going instead of the hue and cry over the fact that they showed no interest initially?

Just seems like it's not worth this much angst.

Why do you care what other people do with their kits? It literally has nothing to do with you and isn't doing anyone a diservice. Gw got their money and the customer paid for what they perceived to be of value. What else matters?

I would have bought BAC for my 30k army if I didn't have so many unpainted things already.

I have nothing to say about what a person does with the contents of something that they have bought.... and neither should you.

Is this a troll thread?

I get it that OP likes the game and wants to see more players playing it, but that doesn't give them the right to pass judgement on what other people do with their product once bought. It sounds more to me that what's really eating OP is that either they can't afford to buy multiple sets like the people they are seeing or no one is really into the game despite the sets flying off the shelves around them. What they hoped for was more board game players, what they got was more 30k players. Else wise, this post just sounds like an eight year old crying about how the world doesn't conform to their own views about it.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

You may feel it's a dis-service to the board game.

But I feel it's about £300 of 30k miniatures for a third of the price.

Really, the board sections, dice and rulebook are just added extras as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure the game is fun in its own way, if that's what you want.

But you also have to realise that BaC and Space Hulk sold like hotcakes because the miniatures appealed to the actual 40k players. Dreadfleet...well, it still hasn't sold out

What's the difference? Space Hulk, BaC and Deathwatch all have models that can be used outside the game itself and are distinct enough to be respectable characters and whatnot in their own right. Furthermore the relative cost of these models is fairly low for what you are getting. A lot of people are saying DW is expensive...but I look at each of those Marines, for the most part as characters - you get a Librarian, you get what is easily 3-4 Captain equivalents, you get what a lot of people are probably going to use as a Khan on Bike model. Going by GW's 'standard' pricing model for clampack characters... that's £110 on those guys alone. Not including the others or the Genestealer Cult in the cost.

Wait, there's a board game that came with my 60 Tacticals, some odd supports (others are going to be mixed with invictarii pieces and turned into Sternguard for 40k) 10 Terminators, 5 fulmentarii, Contemptor Talon and Characters for 30k and 40k?

News to me!

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

If your bonfire can only use that kind of cardstock and you must have that type of plastic for your trinkets, then no, it's not foolish. Your comparison lacked something; there isn't a better alternative.

Quite frankly if there was a cheaper alternative for MK4 armor marines (or hell, marines in general) then it would be foolish to buy BaC for the miniature content alone (although not by much, considering it is still a discount). As it stands, it's the cheapest way to assemble a battle demi-company on the cheap or get started on a 30k army. It is also the only source of plastic cataphractii armor and Contemptor Dreads, and not everyone likes working with resin (much less paying the price). And those units do have functionally different rules than their 40k counterparts.

Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

GW arenself-advertised as "Minis first, games second." These board games are a sure-fire way to get these models moving. If they simply made these models as kits and sold them at normal prices there'd be price outrage. Give the people these highly discounted versions as they did with Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, etc, and they'll sell like hotcakes. Now people have a handful of Heresy minis and will want more to further the collection, sending them to forgeworld, or to GW's eventual same-price plastics.

However to start the discount, they need to justify it. If they released these minis solo, just as a box, no game, then released normal priced versions, people would be outraged at the huge price leap, so GW must therefore sell them as board pieces in this boardgame called Betrayal at Calth/Deathwatch/Space Hulk (which also led to these games through its popularity and nostalgia).

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

It was entirely GWs choice to develop the board game part of it too. Some people just aren't interested, which I'm sure GW are well aware. It's not like people asked for a board game to then disregard. I doubt there's someone at GW crying because 'imageek on the forum isn't playing the board game I made, he's just going to use the models for his 30k forces'.

If I get Deathwatch, I will probably try the board game. However, Betrayal at Calth, the second you use all the models for one heresy force, you're left with a board game where both sides are painted the same colour, which doesn't really work. But if someone's gonna get more enjoyment out of it using it for 30k, then more power to them. It makes more sense for them to not bother with the board game.

It's a marketing technique, they don't really care if you play the game...

-Assassinorum: New plastic assassin models, sold like hotcakes.
-Calth: Gateway to ForgeWorld which is GW's biggest money spinner,
-Deathwatch: Has new genestealers, Deathwatch with rules and people can look to expand with the £15.50 upgrade sprue.

The game isn't to please people, ot's a vehicle for shipping products.


They made Skyhammer op because Devvies and Assault Squads were getting no sales despite being new kits.

DorianGray wrote:
I'm not a troll.

I bought BaC when I only play XENOS and have zero interest in 30k, spent the time to paint EVERYTHING, purely to only play the boardgame with friends.

That is dedication.

I will be doing the same for the new OVERKILL DEATHWATCH boardgame when I don't play Space Marines or Tyranids.

So how about that?

Um, congratulations?

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

First one no, but I will probably do so with the second one I buy. I will even butcher the marines from the second one I buy because I legally cannot use duplicates of them in either games.

I've never seen the forums this united.

GW is a miniature company not a games company, so people buying it for the models are more correct than buying it for the game.

/facetious sarcasm.

Betrayal at Calth is the best game never played.

Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

All I know is all the eBay GSC I have coming from people who are breaking up the contents have motivated me to pull out my classic GSC models from mothballs and revisit them alongside the new stuff. GSC was one of my first armies WAY back in 2nd edition days and I feel like having waited this long for GW to show some love to one of their coolest ideas ever that I'm entitled timeo whatever I please, how I please.

II'm thrilled to use them (GSC) again in actual 40k/zone Mortalis/kill team!!!

I wish people would Please stop trying to piss on other people's nostalgia fueled hobby joy. It comes across as very petty...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

I've actually said that these are boardgames only in the strictest academic sense. In reality, they're vehicles to sell miniatures to existing customers for a "discount." People who play boardgames don't want multipart, monochrome plastic playing pieces that they have to assemble and paint. Most of the boardgame players that have reviewed these games have found them to have lackluster rules, poor replayability, and many of them have purchased the game board pieces and rules from eBay and used simple colored chits to play the game.

Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

 the_Armyman wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

I've actually said that these are boardgames only in the strictest academic sense. In reality, they're vehicles to sell miniatures to existing customers for a "discount." People who play boardgames don't want multipart, monochrome plastic playing pieces that they have to assemble and paint. Most of the boardgame players that have reviewed these games have found them to have lackluster rules, poor replayability, and many of them have purchased the game board pieces and rules from eBay and used simple colored chits to play the game.

Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Lets avoid hyperbole, we all know GW prices are on the high side but Calth is a solid deal if your into 30k and even 40k. It's 150. The modern cost of a tac squad is 40. So it be 120 for three, plus the HQ choices, a FW only Dreadnaught and some cool looking terminators plus a game. I have little interest since I have enough marines but execution Force was a fun game and DeathWatch introduced two more factions to the game.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Lets avoid hyperbole, we all know GW prices are on the high side but Calth is a solid deal if your into 30k and even 40k. It's 150. The modern cost of a tac squad is 40. So it be 120 for three, plus the HQ choices, a FW only Dreadnaught and some cool looking terminators plus a game. I have little interest since I have enough marines but execution Force was a fun game and DeathWatch introduced two more factions to the game.

Where was the hyperbole? BaC marines are plastic ports of resin FW minis. If I had compared them to $40 Tactical Squads, someone would have simply come in and told me that I can't compare 40K Tactical Squads to 30K Tactical Squads. Therefore, by other people's belief that Mk4 Marines are more valuable than Mk7 Marines, my example is fair. To me, a marine is just a marine, but to others it makes a huge difference, hence the premium price tag.

Discussing pricing with some of you is truly a merry-go-round of logic.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

I feel like people don't want to be shafted by GW/FW's utterly ridiculous pricings.

BaC is the most cost-efficient kit GW has ever produced.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Tbh I would price the dreadnought at 15 dollars, considering it's basically the same as the Helbrute from DV with 1 extra option (as opposed to a full sprue kit like the rest of the set).

Still though, the tactical marines and Terminators more than justify the cost, as even if you literally toss everything else out of the box, that's still 30 CAD of savings right there.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Your argument is a straw-man. No one has claimed that BaC is a good deal in a vacuum, the only assertion people have made is that it is a good deal in comparison to Games Workshop's other price-points.