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 Dysartes wrote:
You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.

The kinds of drop pods CSM do have, Dreadclaws and the Karybdis, are designed for boarding actions. And when used for planetary attacks they don't just sit where they drop like useless lumps. They can fly around and act as transports and attack enemies. They can also return to space afterwards. Perfect for piracy and raiding.

Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.

Agreed. The options are incredible and the value makes GW look generous for a change!

Actually, I might get another before GW replaces it for a boring static model with not even a helmet option( much like another certain marine sorceror... ).

SamusDrake wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.

Agreed. The options are incredible and the value makes GW look generous for a change!

Actually, I might get another before GW replaces it for a boring static model with not even a helmet option( much like another certain marine sorceror... ).

I know it's a tough bargain, since in terms of functionality and options the kit is amazing, but man the bits look mighty lumpy compared to modern kits. The best case scenario is we get a newly updated Terminator Lord/Sorc kit that still has lots of options in it, all done in the modern scale and style.

But GW won't give us that and we all know it.

Anyway, a plastic Kharybdis transport would be amazing, or really any other kind of flying transport. Just don't give us a Stormraven with spikes. No thanks.

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...

Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...

Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.

Yes, and they were ditched because the Machine Spirits became extremely violent during the Heresy itself...purportedly because of exposure to Warp entities.
To the point where Loyalists jettisoned/spiked them and used Thunderhawks instead.

Same thing happened with a bunch of the more 'feral' servitor/robots of the AdMech.

Well we can at least look forward to WE and EC being split off into their own armies.

As for what's left, I think it should be left pretty basic. The vanilla CSM roster (including cultists), the four iconic marked units, and that's it. But do it well. Make sure the units work, and work like they should in regards to theme & tabletop roles. Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex. Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...

Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...

Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).

At this point, I'd prefer all of the Legions to get their own codexes. Take all those Legion units out of CSM, instead make CSM the codex for more recent renegade chapters and their human followers. Basically a combination of CSM and Lost and the Damned.

I'd be thrilled if they went with Ninth's proposal. That's efficient so probably won't happen unfortunately.

Having Mixed Chaos Marine units could be cool to add an element of "Chaos" to the army.

Could work like Deathwatch where you are able to take X number of Chaos Marines, X number of Cultists, X number of Champions, X number of Possessed.

Would be a logistical nightmare to keep track of all the stats and wargear, but it would be cool.

I would also like them to add something like Tyranid Biomutations where you spend command points to give your units "Daemonic Upgrades". You could have two separate entries, one would Daemonic Mutations, the other could be Veteran Upgrades.

At the end of the day they just really need to concentrate on fixing/releasing the core of the army and make that work before they add anything else.

You can only patch the army so much by releasing X Daemon Engine. Make basic Marines work first and foremost, the rest of it should be flavour.

 Eldarain wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they went with Ninth's proposal. That's efficient so probably won't happen unfortunately.

Agreed. I like NinthMusketeer's idea for VoTLW a lot as well....

I mostly agree with NinthMusketeer, but would change a couple of things.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As for what's left, I think it should be left pretty basic. The vanilla CSM roster (including cultists), the four iconic marked units, and that's it.

I would include the basic Cult Terminator units as well, but otherwise yeah

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex.

Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...

You mean this would have the Legion rules like like the Chapter rules are in the Marine 'Dex, but the more specific rules are kept to the Supplements? I guess this is where a "Build-A-Warband" rules would be. This would have to be a pretty robust book to function on its own. I don't think everyone wants to play with supplements, so it has to be able to stand on its own two legs.

If anything "Veterans of the Long War" could be their unifying rule, a bit like Chapter Tactics. Less of an upgrade, more of an overall army thing. Not sure how you'd do that without giving it more thought, but y'know...

I guess it comes down to what this book is meant to represent. If it's "Chaos Space Marines", then it has to be Legion and Renegade without the need for supplements, but at the same time the Legion and Renegade books would have to provide far more to justify their existence. Remember that White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial/Crimson Fists and, yes, even Ultramarines don't really have enough to make them require separate books. With few exceptions, they're just special characters in different expensive books. I don't feel they provide enough of a difference to warrant their exclusion from the main Marine Codex, except as a "Codex First Founding". Not unless they get some unique units (Firedrakes, Stormseers, Gorgon Terminators, etc.).

As the core Codex for CSMs it has to be a stand alone book. Nothing else should be required to make use of its content.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...

Some cultist stuff though. I mean this book would have Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, so excising them completely wouldn't be the best idea. I think this also has to be more than just special characters, a Warlord Trait table, and some relics. Daemons are a nice touch, but I'd want something a little more to flesh out each of the Legions. Doesn't have to be DG/1KSons/WE/EC levels, but they have to get something.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).

Just the Red Corsairs? Or all the other Renegade Warbands we have as well (Purge, Crimson Slaughter, etc.)? Overall I like this idea. If it lets me use my LatD army from the Codex EOT days, then great!

Seeing all of those LATD-style units in that leak from a few weeks ago, I really want to be able to run those by themselves. But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the supplements, but honestly I know that if GW can sell us multiple books, they absolutely will.

So if that's the case, let's get Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons into Supplements just like the Space Marine supplements are. This way, you can bring your Nurgle-converted Predators and Defilers without hamstringing yourself. They've got the keyword system to make sure things don't get too out of hand when it comes to buffs and such.

That allows them to use the Chaos Marine Codex in much the same way as the Space Marine one is now, a place as a repository for all of the non-unique things. The base troops, vehicles, etc. Throw in some rules that say 'you cannot take a World Eater unit in a Death Guard detachment' (or somesuch) to cover your bases and keep things relatively thematic, and go from there.

The question becomes this: How much of the 'vanilla' chaos stuff gets put into the main codex, and how much is left out in favor of yet another supplement. Ideally, everything from Abaddon and Undivided legion rules, make-your-own-legion traits, and Huron Blackheart and all of the renegade warbands should just be in the main codex. But, again, knowing GW, if they can sell us a new book, they likely will, and then throw three campaign rulebooks with 1 page of rules to cover other extra stuff to boot.

Personally, I'd rather see them flesh out an Undivided Legions supplement. Get the Night Lords, Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion a big ol' supplement where you can fit in any extra 'veterans of the long war' traits and such. If they build it like they did the space marine supplements, it should work great without needing a massive investment, but at the same time, people will complain about needing to buy two books just to play something like Black Legion.

But then, really, I'd rather they just DON'T do what they're doing with Space Marines, because Space Marines are spread across 10 books now, which is absolutely ridiculous. Just make the Chaos Marine codex solid. Let us play with our toys without being hamstrung into the same choices that we'll have to use for another 5+ years. They did it with things like Gloomspite Gitz, where you could make a themed or a mixed army no problem. They did it with Lumineth Realmlords. They did it with Admech, Sisters of Battle, and even Orks.

I'm just ready for another disappointment in terms of codex and rules, and I know it's going to be another year before we see World Eaters (rumor says Fall of 2022) and likely longer before we see Emperor's Children (2023 at the earliest by my estimate) and then we'll be ready for 10th edition, ready to get crapped on again.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.

What we want.
What we'll get.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex.

Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...

You mean this would have the Legion rules like like the Chapter rules are in the Marine 'Dex, but the more specific rules are kept to the Supplements? I guess this is where a "Build-A-Warband" rules would be. This would have to be a pretty robust book to function on its own. I don't think everyone wants to play with supplements, so it has to be able to stand on its own two legs.

Yup, full subfaction legion rules like the current codex has (only, ya know, actually good) plus obligatory stratagem, WL trait, and artifact for each. And any bonuses for having the whole army be mono-faction, if they choose to do that for CSM. Maybe no build-a-warband though, in favor of making sure the legions and named warbands (Red Corsairs, Purge, etc) have solid bonus support alongside the legions.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...

Some cultist stuff though. I mean this book would have Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, so excising them completely wouldn't be the best idea. I think this also has to be more than just special characters, a Warlord Trait table, and some relics. Daemons are a nice touch, but I'd want something a little more to flesh out each of the Legions. Doesn't have to be DG/1KSons/WE/EC levels, but they have to get something.

This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).

Just the Red Corsairs? Or all the other Renegade Warbands we have as well (Purge, Crimson Slaughter, etc.)? Overall I like this idea. If it lets me use my LatD army from the Codex EOT days, then great!

All the named renegade warbands of course, Red Corsairs just getting a bit more due to their unique status and actually having a model. Cultist & traitor guard options also having crossover to Alpha Legion and Word Bearers where appropriate. This is also where the build-a-warband stuff can go, allowing it to be more expansive without bloating the basic CSM book. And again, all these things need to have a cost be it points or replacing an existing option. No army should be inherently weaker for not having access to these things (GW balance will see to that), they should not just be free bonuses for showing up with an extra book.


Really the entire concept is 'hey, we see that CSM players want all these options but it is too much for one codex, so let's get the core of the army functioning as it should in the main codex then offload the more specialist/bloaty content into supplements.'

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yup, full subfaction legion rules like the current codex has (only, ya know, actually good) plus obligatory stratagem, WL trait, and artifact for each. And any bonuses for having the whole army be mono-faction, if they choose to do that for CSM. Maybe no build-a-warband though, in favor of making sure the legions and named warbands (Red Corsairs, Purge, etc) have solid bonus support alongside the legions.

I'd still do the build-a-warband thing, partly because I like the idea that people can build their own forces and partly because most other armies have it, so why not them, but you're right in that it's the kind of thing better suited to the Renegades book more than the core book.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.

I guess as this is a supplement, the basic Cultist options would still be there. You could put bonuses and whatnot for AL or WB Cultists into the extra rules for those Legions.

Still not sure about the VotLW thing though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
All the named renegade warbands of course, Red Corsairs just getting a bit more due to their unique status and actually having a model.

I'd be concerned about giving the Red Corsairs a bit more favour, mainly as I'd want to avoid the "Sure, you could play all these other things, but this one thing is just slightly better than them!" potential.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cultist & traitor guard options also having crossover to Alpha Legion and Word Bearers where appropriate.

Anything specifically related to Cultists with AL/WB should be in a Legion book. You shouldn't need the CSM Codex, and the Legion book, and this book just to rep the Cultist side of AL/WB. I think back to the way supplements for the 40k RPGs were done - the assumption behind every supplement was that the reader owned that supplement, and the core rulebook, and that's it; you never assumed (or required) the reader to get other books (even referencing other supplements was rare) - so if you want special Alpha Legion or Word Bearer rules for Cultists, then they either need to be in the CSM book, or the Legion book, not also this one.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This is also where the build-a-warband stuff can go, allowing it to be more expansive without bloating the basic CSM book.

I think you're right about this. This is a better place for the Build-A-Warband rules.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And again, all these things need to have a cost be it points or replacing an existing option. No army should be inherently weaker for not having access to these things (GW balance will see to that), they should not just be free bonuses for showing up with an extra book.

Well in the case of the build-a-warband stuff, that would be giving up the regular Renegade Warband rules in favour of being able to pick and choose the combo of the ones you want.

I also think the book should be able to represent 3 facets of "Renegades" in that you could do a "Traitor Marine Chapter", also do a "Non-Marine Rabble with the odd CSM Marine leader", and also "Renegade Marines that have totally gone to Chaos", which would involve a heavier emphasis on the Daemon side of things.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.

What we want.
What we'll get.

My fear as well. I don't think they'll have as many options as Sternguard, but instead what other CSM kits don't have. I think gw is going to go with the SoB approach for our PA infantry, IE: if you can get it from another kit, you can have it. Right now the only thing not covered by CSM, Raptors/Warp Talons, and Havocs is combi-weapons, so I expect Chosen to have those, plus some cc weapons. At least that's what I'm hoping.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.

I guess as this is a supplement, the basic Cultist options would still be there. You could put bonuses and whatnot for AL or WB Cultists into the extra rules for those Legions.

Still not sure about the VotLW thing though.

Yeah, what exactly are "VoTLW units"? And I don't like their abilities being specifically tied to "mutations". Having basic stuff like Daemonic Flight tied to Daemonic Gifts in 3.5 was ok, because it was a modeling thing: give them jump packs if you want, or give them wings, your call. Now everything is tied to what's actually on the models. And a bunch of mutated infantry doesn't work for some Legions. Iron Warriors are known to cut off mutated limbs, and Night Lords don't generally suffer from mutations.

@HBBC, I do want to emphasize that these supplements should not be making armies stronger, just more customizable. Buuuut this is GW so a rule where an AL/WB army can use extra cultist rules from LatD or the extra veteran rules from VotLW but not both would probably be a good idea.

@Gadzilla, when I say "VotLW units" I mean it in the most intuitive sense: units with the VotLW rule. I do see your point about mutations, personally I'd put in a whole chart for mutations AND a whole chart for veteran abilities, because the whole point of making this a supplement is to have the room to do that.

Though I must remind myself this is all just wishlisting and whatever is actually going to happen has probably been decided already. We will see... in 2022.

I very much agree with the suggestion to make god marks feel like something. If I run a Nurgle army, I want it to really feel like a Nurgle-marked army. It doesn't have to be as specific as the Death Guard, but close enough. Also, bringing back the rules for corrupted vehicles sounds great; there's a big continuum between a complete normal, uncorrupted vehicle and a raging daemon engine. I'd love to be able to run something in my army like the possessed Land Raider in the Steel Daemon novella.

Also, as a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'd love to see some of these come back, and for other warbands as well:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/40k-new-crimson-slaughter-formations.html

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...

Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.

Saying "kettle of fish" seemed even more out of place.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
@HBBC, I do want to emphasize that these supplements should not be making armies stronger, just more customizable. Buuuut this is GW so a rule where an AL/WB army can use extra cultist rules from LatD or the extra veteran rules from VotLW but not both would probably be a good idea.

@Gadzilla, when I say "VotLW units" I mean it in the most intuitive sense: units with the VotLW rule. I do see your point about mutations, personally I'd put in a whole chart for mutations AND a whole chart for veteran abilities, because the whole point of making this a supplement is to have the room to do that.

Though I must remind myself this is all just wishlisting and whatever is actually going to happen has probably been decided already. We will see... in 2022.

Yeah, that sounds cool. I'm not opposed to mutations being something in the rules, I'm just afraid that because of GW's goofy "no model, no rules" policy, they'd go and stick them on every model. If it's just rules and you can model it however you want, like Daemonic Gifts in 3.5, it could be pretty fun. And you're right, if the codex isn't already printed, it's almost definitely already written. This is just wishlisting and speculation.

I think if you wanted any gradual or customizable effects of Veterans of the Long War, or similar for a group progressing into Chaos, you're going to be looking at campaign play stuff rather than data sheets in a codex.

Or a "one per detachment" thing like the Ork special mobz.

Pretty sure Deadly Pathogens and Legion Command are both "one per army". So, same for Veteran Abilities?

Not sure why this thread needs to exist.

There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.

- Stratagems that involve random dice rolls to determine whether or not they are useful

- Bring back Warpflame Gargoyles

- Make Lucius a LOW

- Cut and paste the remainder of the rules, and remember to update wounds for CSM

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
@HBBC

Ok now you're just doing it on purpose.

 techsoldaten wrote:
There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.

You forgot "Increase the points cost of Rhios/Land Raiders because they have a 5+(I) save in the 1KSons book".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
@HBBC

Ok now you're just doing it on purpose.

 techsoldaten wrote:
There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.

You forgot "Increase the points cost of Rhios/Land Raiders because they have a 5+(I) save in the 1KSons book".

Yes. Pivotal.

Don't forget charging us 1CP for every marine. That power armour they're wearing is Heresy era equipment, can't be giving us that for just points now can they?

Also please don't forget to have GW remove the 1CP cost for 30K units. The Imps don't have to pay it why should those armies based on 30K vets have to pay?