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What, you mean an army made up of units which are like weaker, more expensive assault marines whose only real anti-tank ability exists within 3"?

Melissia wrote:What, you mean an army made up of units which are like weaker, more expensive assault marines whose only real anti-tank ability exists within 3"?

You know what I love about you, Melissia? Your unrelenting positive outlook.

For Emperor's-sakes, give the guy a break.

To be positive, at least the old (apparently not the new) Seraphim Jump Packs would indeed look nice.

But they're still overpriced... maybe if the rumors are true and they get two shots-- but even then... they'll still get utterly screwed in close combat, especially with SotM removed.

Melissia wrote:
No, there really isn't. The BoSL is all but in name the Sisters' basic rules.

No. It's not. It's an upgrade, paid for with points. What it has become is a crutch, a crutch Sisters players need to lean upon to make their army function. That's a failure of design (not the players). And given how much Wargear they're removing, I can see the BoSL being removed.

- Personal attack removed by insaniak -

Cute.

Then stop arguing one thing if you mean another.

Her post seemed pretty clear...

Then again I did actually read it to begin with. YMMV.

The book is as much of a crutch as stubborn is on any other unit. Choosing to fail makes it a bit more awesome, but when 90% of your army is designed to operate between 1 and 12 inches without any dedicated assault units, don't you think mechanics like this are warranted?

Melissia wrote:What, you mean an army made up of units which are like weaker, more expensive assault marines whose only real anti-tank ability exists within 3"?

Its already been rumoured seraphim points cost is reduced. I said it would look cool, not it would be the most competetive list in existance.

JB_Man wrote:Her post seemed pretty clear...

Then again I did actually read it to begin with. YMMV.

The book is as much of a crutch as stubborn is on any other unit. Choosing to fail makes it a bit more awesome, but when 90% of your army is designed to operate between 1 and 12 inches without any dedicated assault units, don't you think mechanics like this are warranted?

Nevermind that it's only unmodified leadership value for pinning and morale tests. The only automatic regrouping they have is with the Light of the Emperor power... which has been removed to make way for the new faith system if rumors are to be believed.

Removing both that and BoSL/Stubborn would make Sisters easier to route off the table than Tau Fire Warriors. Heck even Imperial Guard would do better.

I like Melissia's posts because they are one of the only things on which H.B.M.C and I see eye to eye. lol

As for Seraphim looking cool, I have to agree. I bought a butt-ton of Swooping Hawk wings back in the day and chopped the bottom off. My Seraphim look boss. (Seraphim JP with Swooping Hawk instead of the tubes.)

Why dont they just give Seraphim Furious charge, with 2 attacks base +2CC and assault that would give them S4 I4 with 4 attacks and rerolls to wound. Should also get a special rule called "In the Emperors Name" that gives them fleet for a turn but you have to scream "In the Emperors Name" when you do it so everyone in the room knows what you are doing.
This should balance them out and make them unique......oh wait....

pretre wrote:I like Melissia's posts because they are one of the only things on which H.B.M.C and I see eye to eye. lol

I suspect you actually bother to read them, something HBMC provably doesn't do. I hope I'm not wrong

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:I like Melissia's posts because they are one of the only things on which H.B.M.C and I see eye to eye. lol

I suspect you actually bother to read them, something HBMC provably doesn't do. I hope I'm not wrong

I do read them, but sometimes it is like charlie brown's teacher. Wah wah wah wah Seraphim are broken wah wah wah wah Book of St Lucius wah wah wah. I think my brain is broken.

Ok so we've heard a lot from the people who believe these rumors are detrimental to the army.

From the people who are holding out with optimism, what do know that really positive? The only thing I can think of is reduced points cost for everything but at that point what is the benefit of sisters over guard since the current faith rumors aren't that amazing to make them stand out. A few bones like A2 meltas instead of twin link isn't really going to make or break anything.

Ixquic wrote:Ok so we've heard a lot from the people who believe these rumors are detrimental to the army.

From the people who are holding out with optimism, what do know that really positive? The only thing I can think of is reduced points cost for everything but at that point what is the benefit of sisters over guard since the current faith rumors aren't that amazing to make them stand out.

Depending on your definition of positive in this context, reduced points costs might not even be a good thing, needing to spend more £ per point.

Hey whatdayouknow, you didn't read them pretre, you seem to be doing that a lot these days.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Ok so we've heard a lot from the people who believe these rumors are detrimental to the army.

From the people who are holding out with optimism, what do know that really positive? The only thing I can think of is reduced points cost for everything but at that point what is the benefit of sisters over guard since the current faith rumors aren't that amazing to make them stand out.

Depending on your definition of positive in this context, reduced points costs might not even be a good thing, needing to spend more £ per point.

Indeed it would, all without giving us anything else really to spend it on because they aren't likely to introduce new units worthy of being taken in a WD codex when a REAL codex is on its way.

gorgon wrote:

Nonsense. There's a big difference between all the things you mention and the book. You're comparing an army's special rule and another army's very basic upgrade character equipment to a unique wargear item for ICs. The problem is that players -- perhaps rightfully so -- have become reliant on that wargear item. But the designers didn't mean to make it as intrinsic as ATSKNF, else the book rule would have been built into the Canonness. I think you know this, but this discussion has entered arguing for argument's sake territory.

Wrong. Intent is irrelevant. BOLS is for all intents and purposes part of the army's character and special rules. Without it, its very much a weaker army, IF nothing replaces it.

Perhaps the Canonness will have some kind of similar ability in the next iteration. Who knows? But IMO, the game has too much Stubborn/Fearless/ATSKNF already. Fluffilogically, maybe Sisters are fanatics, but if you haven't noticed, everything in the game is some sort of raving lunatic on the battlefield. High Ld Stubborn is probably better than Fearless overall...and I'm not seeing how Sisters should come out ahead of Khorne Berzerkers, etc. in that regard.

Why not? Faith will sustaing long before madness.

I expect that Sisters are going to be just fine, especially if they release the models in Finecast at that time. They'll want to push the models, hence the rules won't suck. I'd lay money that you're looking at some significant points cuts though, and you know what that brings...

Gods I hope not. No finecast please. Ever.

Doubtful on points cut. Your already at 11 points for a basic sister.

Melissia wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Ok so we've heard a lot from the people who believe these rumors are detrimental to the army.

From the people who are holding out with optimism, what do know that really positive? The only thing I can think of is reduced points cost for everything but at that point what is the benefit of sisters over guard since the current faith rumors aren't that amazing to make them stand out.

Depending on your definition of positive in this context, reduced points costs might not even be a good thing, needing to spend more £ per point.

Indeed it would, all without giving us anything else really to spend it on because they aren't likely to introduce new units worthy of being taken in a WD codex when a REAL codex is on its way.

Aye, I predict that this book won't introduce many, if any, new units, if they're not going to put models out. They might put out a few that can easily be converted or something, but otherwise if there's no real reason for them to do so if they can't easily make money off of the new stuff. IMHO, at least.

pretre wrote:

carmachu wrote:

pretre wrote:Fast attack slot would fix them pretty well.

And compete with seraphim? whatever your smoking you might want to stop....

It is called 'bring your own cover'. I can hide a lot behind 3 penitent engines.

Doubtful you ever used the models. Their bigger then most everything. Not sure what your hiding behind, unliek serpahim whom can hide behind a rhino just fine.

But to humor you, to make them actual USEFUL, adn compete with serpahim at the FA slot, you need to bring something ELSE, to make it work.

What are you, a GW designer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:To be positive, at least the old (apparently not the new) Seraphim Jump Packs would indeed look nice.

But they're still overpriced... maybe if the rumors are true and they get two shots-- but even then... they'll still get utterly screwed in close combat, especially with SotM removed.

To be fair though, prior to this release they were underpriced at 16pts. but 22pts seemed a bit much.

The only new units the rumors have hinted at thus far would be two new HQ units. The Confessor and probably one new Confessor-based special character. And the Confessor is just a redone Inquisitor, rather than something actually new. Still time for me to be wrong and for them to introduce something that actually matters....

There's also still time for pigs to grow wings, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:Doubtful you ever used the models. Their bigger then most everything. Not sure what your hiding behind, unliek serpahim whom can hide behind a rhino just fine.

No, he means hide things behind the P.Engines.

Melissia wrote:No, he means hide things behind the P.Engines.

Thats just stupid. Why would I spend 80pts on an opened top cover when 58 points is much more survivalable, with smoke?

Melissia wrote:The only new units the rumors have hinted at thus far would be two new HQ units. The Confessor and probably one new Confessor-based special character. And the Confessor is just a redone Inquisitor, rather than something actually new. Still time for me to be wrong and for them to introduce something that actually matters....

There's also still time for pigs to grow wings, too.

How long until genetic engineering in that regard is perfected? Pigs with wings would be top of my list were I in that line of work. That and a "Fantasy zoo", with dragons, unicorns... Ahem. Anyway...

Makes no difference to me until they actually release models, whenever that will be. If they don't release them with these WD issues, and I fully expect that they won't, then I'll probably start Chaos Marines or something. I can't believe that the armies I was drawn to when I first started were 2 of the oldest ones... *Sigh*.

Melissia wrote:

gorgon wrote:Nonsense. There's a big difference between all the things you mention and the book.

No, there really isn't. The BoSL is all but in name the Sisters' basic rules. No, the BoSL isn't jsut for ICs. It's an upgrade to sergeants primarily, one that is mandatory because without it sisters run like Marines woudl without ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

Please. It's a piece of wargear, not an army special rule. It's only because you have a quaint, antiquated thing called a wargear list that your upgrade characters can pick that kind of stuff. And somehow, Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG and others lack across-the-board Fearless/Stubborn/ATSKNF and are fine on the tabletop. At this point it's obviously a waste of time discussing this with you, since you've lost any and all objectivity regarding your army.

If it's going to be such a disaster, I think your best course of action is to put your army up for sale so someone else can enjoy the new army list. More money in your pocket, less stress in your life, and more enjoyment for someone else.

I'm as optimistic about the rumors for Sisters of Battle not leading to a craptacular army, as I was about the rumors for Grey Knights not leading to a completely overpowered army. ^^

Don't take that optimism away from me.

gorgon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

gorgon wrote:Nonsense. There's a big difference between all the things you mention and the book.

No, there really isn't. The BoSL is all but in name the Sisters' basic rules. No, the BoSL isn't jsut for ICs. It's an upgrade to sergeants primarily, one that is mandatory because without it sisters run like Marines woudl without ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

Please. It's a piece of wargear, not an army special rule. It's only because you have a quaint, antiquated thing called a wargear list that your upgrade characters can pick that kind of stuff. And somehow, Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG and others lack across-the-board Fearless/Stubborn/ATSKNF and are fine on the tabletop. At this point it's obviously a waste of time discussing this with you, since you've lost any and all objectivity regarding your army.

If it's going to be such a disaster, I think your best course of action is to put your army up for sale so someone else can enjoy the new army list. More money in your pocket, less stress in your life, and more enjoyment for someone else.

So basically what your saying if someone doesn't agree with you they should shut up and sell their army and leave the game?

OT: I was hoping that this WD list would get me to play sisters but from the look of the current rumors their taking alot of stuff and not replacing it with anything new and interesting.

Melissia wrote:They can't really compete for any slot at the moment, they're too costly for how fragile they are compared to other, less expensive/more durable/easily controlled units which usually also have more advanced tactical options.

This is the same problem that Repentia have, and will likely still have. The rumors put their points at SM levels, and 15-18 is simply too expensive for a fragile, I 1 model. The other melee units that are fragile work by single digit costs, external buffs, or high I. Repenita have none of these, and T3 FNP is not going to save them. If they were, I don't know, 9-10 each I'd think about it. Using Penitent Engines as a screen is a little like using War Walkers or Trukks as a screen. All you get is a dead screen.

As for the book, I imagine it's gone. They hate infantry wargear in 5th. What was the last codex that got a lot of generally accessible wargear, Orks? Recent books are chock full of weapons, but not really wargear. The primary use of the book is to not run from close combat as most other morale checks are unmodified to begin with. I'm not sure I'm really going to miss it. What I will miss is Light of the Emperor.

I dunno what I expect about it, but if it exists, it'll be integrated into the basic rules for Sisters.

gorgon wrote:Please. It's a piece of wargear, not an army special rule.

You mean like power armor for Marines?

At any rate... ignoring your trollish behavior...

Dark Eldar have Power From Pain, and Imperial Guard have Orders, Voxcasters, the Lord Commissar, etc. Eldar have their own methods, such as Embolden, amongst other things-- and you know they will get their own rules when their codex is updated. Every Fifth Edition codex has special rules for its army. ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Orders, Power From Pain, army-wide Acute Senses and Counter-Attack, The Red Thirst, Synapse, Brotherhood of Psykers, etc, which helps them deal with leadership issues and gives flavor to the army.

None of the Sisters Faith Powers thus far help with leadership, so I very much expect them to have something that gives them an effect like LotE or BoSL. Of course, since I also expect the so-called codex to suck, it may very well not, too.

Since this thread appears to have degenerated into a bunch of people sniping at each other, I'm going to lock it so people can cool down a little. We'll re-open it when there's some actual news.