Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have no desire to have a codex filled with tree-hugging monstrosities worrying about keeping the galaxy at peace. But for them to be anything other than shallow bad guys, they really need to give them some agenda about while they're here, in our galaxy. Even if giving them a point of origin, something, anything, that personifies the race. As it is, they're excellent antagonists to other races. As seen in DoW2, for instance. But there has to be something greater behind the Hive Mind and such a oerfect predatorial machine that guides their hunger.

Aliens didn't want to conquer the galaxy. Besides, they mostly do have personalities, because they're trying to escape captivity from humans more than they actually try to eat them. Only in 8th Passenger is the Alien truly a predator and not prey. And besides, Aliens are excellent antagonists too, just as Tyranids. They wouldn't make good protagonists though, if all they wanted to do was eat people. Now, an Alien matriarch guarding her brood from invading humans? Now that's something solid. And every playable race should be given the courtesy of personality. As long as GW keeps them as this big, scary, heartless nightmarish thing without a purpose(except, like I mentioned, to eat people), Space Marines will keep on kicking their asses in the fluff.

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Araenion wrote:I have no desire to have a codex filled with tree-hugging monstrosities worrying about keeping the galaxy at peace. But for them to be anything other than shallow bad guys, they really need to give them some agenda about while they're here, in our galaxy. Even if giving them a point of origin, something, anything, that personifies the race. As it is, they're excellent antagonists to other races. As seen in DoW2, for instance. But there has to be something greater behind the Hive Mind and such a oerfect predatorial machine that guides their hunger.

Isn't that what they are supposed to be?

Araenion wrote:Aliens didn't want to conquer the galaxy. Besides, they mostly do have personalities, because they're trying to escape captivity from humans more than they actually try to eat them. Only in 8th Passenger is the Alien truly a predator and not prey.

You haven't watched the Alien film series, have you? They are NOT captives (Other than in that awful fourth film). They do not have identifiable personalities.

Araenion wrote: And besides, Aliens are antagonists. They wouldn't make a good protagonist. Which every playable race should be. Otherwise, they are, as I said, just fodder for Space Marine bolters.

The tyranids are supposed to be antagonists first and foremost. I don't see why they need to be good protagonists.

The only personality traits i can see in aliens is that they are catty as hell. always snaping at each other.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Good point, Araenion. The Hivemind is not much of a protagonist. It's difficult to sympathize much with the Nids goals. You could never write a worthwhile book about them from their point of view . . . or really much beyond a paragraph. And that's why their dex is written almost as an Ordo Xenos case file. But on the other hand, they are very interesting--like in the same way that you don't have to be an entomologist (or an insect, for that matter) to be fascinated by insects. I don't think a race needs to be a good protagonist to be worthwhile to play. Playing a game of 40k and writing a fanfic are pretty different things for most people.

I think the point of tyrnaids is to be a force of nature. Its the whole man versus nature story taken to the extremes. When you manifest the very concept of evolution and survival of the fittest into actual beings you get nids. It's essentially Charles Darwin trying to kill you in space.

Anyway you don't give a personality to a tornado or volcano or any other force of nature, it's what makes them so awe inspiring and terrifying.

Tyranids most assuredly are not a force of "nature".

Well how would you describe them then? They take the most basic objectives of all organisms: eat and reproduce, and they have nearly perfected it.

Necroman wrote:You haven't watched the Alien film series, have you? They are NOT captives (Other than in that awful fourth film). They do not have identifiable personalities.

I've watched them! Truly you insult me with that assumption! T'was a looong time ago, though...so I defer this point to you.

And when you are a Tyranid player, don't you expect your faction to count for something in GWs eyes, except fodder for the soldiers of the Imperium? I don't know, for me to ever consider liking Tyranid fluff, they should tell me something about them, something that makes me want to help them along their path to annihilating the galaxy(yes, pretty nihilistic thought, but you get what I mean). I don't care what it is, but I honestly don't see appeal in playing mindless meatgrinders.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

And SoBs are just as good in power armor as Space Marines.

I never said that, I said they can become that way. IE, their veterans are, what with being WS4, BS4, I4 while in their power armor.

Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

To Melissa's comment that Tyranids are not nature: Tyranids might be an extraterrestrial force that destroys ecosystems, but then again, so is a massive asteroid impact. And it's hard to deny that a massive asteroid impact is nature's work.

Araenion wrote:I've watched them! Truly you insult me with that assumption! T'was a looong time ago, though...so I defer this point to you.

Yeah, I was being a bit snappy there.

You should watch the first two again, they're awesome.

Araenion wrote:And when you are a Tyranid player, don't you expect your faction to count for something in GWs eyes, except fodder for the soldiers of the Imperium? I don't know, for me to ever consider liking Tyranid fluff, they should tell me something about them, something that makes me want to help them along their path to annihilating the galaxy(yes, pretty nihilistic thought, but you get what I mean). I don't care what it is, but I honestly don't see appeal in playing mindless meatgrinders.

Well, there must be some appeal; otherwise, people wouldn't play Tyranids in the first place.

Melissia wrote:I never said that, I said they can become that way. IE, their veterans are, what with being WS4, BS4, I4 while in their power armor.

Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

Actually, you said they can not only be just as good, they can actually be better.

GW fluff specifically disagrees with you on that count, pointing out that the lack of a black carapace is a pretty big deal for non-Astartes.

Melissia wrote:Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

And people still complain about Calgar punching out an avatar?

Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Less debate, more #3.

Well calgar is the god of war, says so in his rules

Manchu wrote:But on the other hand, they are very interesting--like in the same way that you don't have to be an entomologist to be fascinated by insects. I don't think a race needs to be a good protagonist to be worthwhile to play. Playing a game of 40k and writing a fanfic are pretty different things for most people.

As I said, I love their playstyle. The debate was sparked over why I thought they were not as well-personified as Orks or Eldar, however. And I don't rightly know the reason. I can't really get into an army simply because I like how they play. I could spend a few games with a Tyranid army and enjoy it, but dedicate my time and money collecting and painting the miniatures of something I don't like at all, except as intricately made chess-figures, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

Melissia wrote:Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Which would suggest that a Chapter Master is considerably more of a badass than a Cannoness.

Necroman wrote:Well, there must be some appeal; otherwise, people wouldn't play Tyranids in the first place.

Of course, but alas that appeal is lost on me, except, as I mention above, their appeal on the tabletop(which, I'd hazard a guess is enough for most people to collect an army).

#3 is almost certainly Eldar.

Also, Melissia, you should release 1 and 2 at the same time, so that we're hit with a big surprise all at once (Instead of just releasing 2, and then having us know what 1 is due to it being the only one left).

asimo77 wrote:Well calgar is the god of war, says so in his rules

Melissia wrote:Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Not even close. That's like saying the Eldar are the dominant species because they have craftworlds floating all around or that SM are dominant because their Chapter worlds are spread out. That the Imperium of Man is the dominant power in the galaxy is a well established core tenant of 40k.

there's plenty of Avatars out there but there's only one Calgar eheh...
He's one of the heroes of the imperium...

Araenion wrote:As I said, I love their playstyle. The debate was sparked over why I thought they were not as well-personified as Orks or Eldar, however. And I don't rightly know the reason. I can't really get into an army simply because I like how they play. I could spend a few games with a Tyranid army and enjoy it, but dedicate my time and money collecting and painting the miniatures of something I don't like at all, except as intricately made chess-figures, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I like Sisters the best by far, fluff-wise. I have not enjoyed painting them at all, however. I've often considered buying Tyranid models just to paint. What really turns me of about them is the unavailability of models, from a collecting & playing standard, that are absolutely key to their current dex.

Melissia wrote:Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Actually I find it quite the opposite, I was playing a 2,000 point game Eldar and orks vs Blood Angels and Space Marines and the so called " GOD OF ****ING WAR. " died turn 2 with a couple lucky rolls and about all are heavy weapons firing at the darn thing, I find Tyrants with Guard are even screen by Gaunts alot harder to deal with


EDIT: Ohwait, you mean fluff-wise... silly me.

Yes, no official Tervigon or Tyrannofex models...none of those sparkly new HQs they got...still only Hive Tyrant on the GW site.

Out of all the fluff, I like Eldar the best. I also adore their sleek tanks and colourful Aspects. And how they play on the tabletop. So they're a pretty great match for me.

As it is, I'm still collecting/painting my first army. Not being in the hobby for long, there's a whole lot still to do to finish my Eldar collection. Maybe my perspective will change once I do. Tyranid model line looks pretty fantastic to paint. And pretty simple, from what I've heard. But looking at them, they have potential to be pretty amazingly painted, too. And I still cheer for them to get some personality of their own, especially in higher sentient beasties such as Raveners, Genestealers and Lictors.

Araenion wrote:Out of all the fluff, I like Eldar the best. I also adore their sleek tanks and colourful Aspects. And how they play on the tabletop. So they're a pretty great match for me.

I love Craftworld Eldar. Their background is wonderful, their designs are cool and unique (without seeming out of place), and they have enough personality to be different as between Craftworlds. But I will not be playing them until their aspect warrior model lines get some major reworking.

Rascon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

And SoBs are just as good in power armor as Space Marines.

Problem, 'Uman?

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Not even close. That's like saying the Eldar are the dominant species because they have craftworlds floating all around or that SM are dominant because their Chapter worlds are spread out. That the Imperium of Man is the dominant power in the galaxy is a well established core tenant of 40k.

It even says so in the latest background material released - DEATHWATCH.