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... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

Melissia wrote:... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

You could clear this up pretty easily by actually pointing out where it says that orks are both the most populous species in the galaxy and also in control of the most worlds in any GW-published material.

I'll grant you that. The game is entirely from the Imperial view, as the Imperium (such as it is) is the dominant power. Orks are everywhere. They are a terrifying plague of violence. But in ten thousand years, they have not become any more (or any less!) of a threat to the Imperium.

Well, there is a lot of fluff in both the Big Book and the Ork codex that states that the Ork population is so huge that it actually exceeds the boundaries of the known galaxy. There is also a map in the Big Book which shows the population density of orks in the various segmentums, and it's huge.

FURTHERMORE:
Gotta disagree there, Manchu. Armageddon is now a more or less permanent warzone due to orkish activity, and because of the distraction of the tyranids, the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon has launched a Waaagh! into Ultramar.

Melissia wrote:... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

OK, I've cited my source.

Please cite yours.

GW talks of Orks as having "numbers beyond counting." The same things are said of Tyranids. I'm sure the same thing applies to humans. But as I said, even with the seemingly endless numbers Orks have not accomplished all that much over the milennia. There's a good argument that humans are quite a bit more violent than Orks--namely, the ten thousand year history of the Imperium, which only covers the period in which they have been reconquering and ruling an even older and more advanced human empire.

Even older than orks, who are one of the oldest races in the galaxy?
I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

EDIT: Ignore the first sentence, I misread. Whoops.

For the former, it's in the fourth edition Ork codex last I checked. I'll go look in it later, for now, I can't be arsed. For the latter, it's in the rulebook, on the map of Ork inhabited worlds. Ork worlds are measured in density, rather than in actual territory, because Orks control worlds all across the galaxy and control so damn many worlds. The Imperium of Man has a map showing its supposed territory, but a look at the Ork map shows that this gak obviously does not fly with the Orks, nevermind that the Imperium is constantly fighting battles within its territory against rebels or finding new worlds within it.

Orks also aren't limited by the lack of an Astronomican, too. They will go where the warp takes them, and as long as there's a fight they're happy. Hell there's even suggestions in the Ork codex that Ork signals are coming from outside the galaxy.

Huh.

At best that's a push, but the Imperium seems a bit in the lead, so to speak, but probably only because they care about that sort of thing and the Orks don't.

Double post bug.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Each of those events were significant on a sector or sub-sector level. The holding of Armageddon (Waaagh! defeated twice there) has had no major effect on the Impeirum at large, nor has the loss of one Space Marine Chapter's homeworld. The Tau as an entire race are nearly insignificant by Imperial standards. Don't get me wrong, the Orks are a major threat. But they're not serious contenders against humans--as ten thousand years and more have proven.

Except that they are. Orks control huge swaths of the galaxy, and they're constantly attacking from said territory, expanding anywhere that the Imperium's defenses are weak. Any world they land on becomes an Ork-infested world, drawing more Orks to it as well as the ones that are born there. Even a single Boy surviving to make it to the surface can mean an entire world is doomed to eternally suffer the predations of Orks.

Melissia wrote:For the former, it's in the fourth edition Ork codex last I checked.

No, GW writers never say anything definitive about this. The current dex says "beyond counting" and the BGB calls them a "numerous race." I don't know that there is much point arguing about the size of the Ork population. The larger their population, the poorer it looks that they've accomplished so little with it. Ultimately, this is because Orks do not have the same goals as humans. They are generally not interested in empire and do not have the capability to sustain such institutions anyway.


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Melissia wrote:Even a single Boy surviving to make it to the surface can mean an entire world is doomed to eternally suffer the predations of Orks.

Ork presence by itself is not such a menace. It's a Waaagh! that means trouble. Saying a planet is doomed because there are Orks on it is like saying a planet is doomed because there are box jellyfish there. Yes, they're dangerous and you shouldn't take the threat lightly; but it's easily enough controlled under normal circumstances. (See inter-Waaagh! Armamgeddon, for example.)

At 33 pages and counting, there's only so much that shouting into a hurricane will accomplish.

This is firmly in Melissiawank territory, so it is best to just move on to the next one and hope that the final three show up quickly.

Well, M has already admitted to being an Ork fangirl so we are just arguing for fun at this point.

Manchu wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Each of those events were significant on a sector or sub-sector level. The holding of Armageddon (Waaagh! defeated twice there) has had no major effect on the Impeirum at large, nor has the loss of one Space Marine Chapter's homeworld. The Tau as an entire race are nearly insignificant by Imperial standards. Don't get me wrong, the Orks are a major threat. But they're not serious contenders against humans--as ten thousand years and more have proven.

One small thing, the third war for Armageddon isn't over. It's still going on; and the Armageddon system is very significant to the Imperium in terms of it's industrial complexes. Other than that, I can see where you're coming from. Even so, the Orks have been around long before Humans, and doubtless they'll still be around when the Imperium collapses and calls it a day.

The Third War for Armageddon is still going on . . . kind of. Ork Waaagh!s depend on the charisma of the boss. And Yarrick (once again) sent Ghazghkull running. Unless he rallies or another warboss emerges (not likely to be of Ghazghkull's exceptional skill anyway), that war will not likely be won by Orks

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
One small thing, the third war for Armageddon isn't over. It's still going on; and the Armageddon system is very significant to the Imperium in terms of it's industrial complexes. Other than that, I can see where you're coming from. Even so, the Orks have been around long before Humans, and doubtless they'll still be around when the Imperium collapses and calls it a day.

Yeah, but fluff seems to suggest that the Imperium loses important industrial worlds like it's their job. I look at it like this: it's important for the Armageddon system in the same way that, say, a tornado in Oklahoma City would be pretty important for Oklahoma City and its surrounding environs. The folks in Boston wouldn't be heavily impacted, nor would the US as a whole - nor would China, and nor would Earth. On a local level, it's extremely important; in the big picture, it's not.

Orks will almost undoubtedly be around when the Imperium's dead and buried. They're unlikely to be the cause of the Imperium's downfall, though, at least in the aggregate. My money for that is either on Tyrannids, or on literally everybody once the Astronomican fails.

The Inquisition knows the truth: the Imperium has the most to fear from itself.

Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna take some advice-- second and first are going to be posted together.

3: ELDAR

I'm betting Guard is second, Orks are first.

Melissia wrote:Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.

Well, it still wasn't a particularly positive portrayal of the sisters.

As for the Eldar being 3rd: Predictable, but in a good way. I like how you mentioned that their codex was still doing well, as a good codex that ages well can make all the difference between a faction like the Eldar and one like the Tau.

Yeah, eldar couldn't have made it into the top 2. They have the best minis of any range, and their army play is interesting, but every list has a nasty tendency to rely on a few bits of cheese, and their fluff really does leave a lot to be desired, especially in their new codex.

I'd also rank the eldar codex somewhere between about 3 and 5, but they do need a little spit and polish to snag the top spot.

As for who gets #1, I'm going to guess orks. Best modelling opportunities (with some pretty decent models to boot), while being competitive on the field and with the best fluff in the game. Guard would be a close second, though.

Probably orks, but ive got my fingers crossed for ig.

Melissia wrote:Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.

The Sisters turn up in three of Mitchell's books.

They're zealous to the point of reckless blindness in "Duty Calls", as shown when they nearly let the line collapse by advancing too far forward (and thereby moving out of range of the units on their flanks).
The Sisters you mentioned are in "Cain's Last Stand", and yeah they're not themselves at all. On the other hand the book also includes Sister Julien, who's a reasonable, down to earth, veteran, who drinks, plays cards, and has a discrete sexual relationship with one of the members of the school staff (i.e. she's not likely to have a 'holier than thou' attitude toward those around her, and is quite the opposite of Cain's negative view of "Emperor Botherers"). She also happens to be in charge of training the Sororitas initiates attending the school, and is often seen leading several of them around.
Finally, a pair of them turn up in 'Innocence Proves Nothing', but they're quite literally scenery - in this case silent door guards for the entrance to the Ordo Hereticus wing of the Inquisition Headquarters in the Calixis Sector. The Ordo Malleus wing has a pair of Grey Knights filling the same role, and the Ordo Xenos wing likely has a pair of Deathwatch doing the same.

Eh! Don't tell me I just read the end to "Duty Calls"???! Gah! I am probably almost to that part (maybe a chapter away actually). What timing

Oh well...

Btw, the front page could use an update or two.

Aniketos wrote:Eh! Don't tell me I just read the end to "Duty Calls"???! Gah! I am probably almost to that part (maybe a chapter away actually). What timing

The bit I described from "Duty Calls" actually happens mid-way through the book.



It shouldn't spoil anything particularly important (which is why I used it for my example).

If I'm honest, I've always liked Eldar. Somehow, their models appeal to me in the way they look; this is especially true of their tanks and aspect warriors, of which I am a huge fan. Unfortunately, their super-serious fluff kinda puts me off. It's even more grim than my beloved CSM in places, and I already have a "serious" army in terms of fluff.

I like the Eldar fluff. Would like to see more about the callous way that they regard a single Eldar life as more important than an infinity of any other race. The cold blooded way the farseers try to guide the remaining Eldar out of the clutches of oblivion.
I think its less "cry me a river" and more "we are on the edge here people. we have to keep our race alive. and we cant LOAD SAVED GAME if something goes wrong"

Eldar have always been kind of cool to me, I liked most of their model range, but I too did not like the whole dying race fluff. The model range also has an incredible amount of troop and elite chooses, most of which are medal; which was another reason they did not appeal to me that much.
Good review, and still hope Guard win.

Manchu wrote:I love Craftworld Eldar. Their background is wonderful, their designs are cool and unique (without seeming out of place), and they have enough personality to be different as between Craftworlds. But I will not be playing them until their aspect warrior model lines get some major reworking.

I meant to ask you yesterday, but I was getting seriously tired. Which models do you not like and why? Personally, I like them all except Guardian jetbikes. My favourite are Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers.

As for them being 3rd...it's a good place to be, for a 4th edition codex. They still play well, but over-reliance on certain very useful units like the Fire Dragons and Wave Serpents makes for pretty standardized builds. And it's just sad that the Phoenix Lords are so obnoxiously expensive and proportionally useless. When it comes to fluff, I don't think theirs is over the top at all, at least not in the distant darkness of the far future where there is only war. Their passion for life and the grave need to contain it(or else Slaneesh comes by and omnoms you) is what greatly appeals to me. And the fact they're absolutely and solely self-centered and make no excuses for it(unlike Tau and their Greater Good) makes them the most upfront of all races. You can never trust an Eldar. But at least you know that is one thing you can always count on.