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pretre wrote:I think I'll prove to be right here. The preacher is an upgrade character statline. There's no normal HQ that's 1W (that I can think of, someone will prove me wrong).

He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine. He can be taken up to 3 times for a single force org slot. The Priest has 1 wound but 2 attacks and +1 WS over a normal marine. Naturally he has his cool ability which functions all the time for the low low price of 50 points. He has a few wargear options too. My guess is the Preacher will be the same and the Confessor will be a full HQ. We'll know in month who can take a Battle Conclave and what options they will have. While I am down with the rules for a Battle Conclave and will probably use 1 or 2, I don't like the idea behind it. My guess is that only Confessors will be able to, but I could be wrong. Something like the acolyte from GK coudl have been inserted in the Conclave to give a nod to Frateris Militia but they dropped the ball on that. No big deal as it was hardly worth taking.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

Manchu wrote:[note: previous mod warning to everyone in this thread]On that same note, calling someone's thoughts "hysterics," claiming that their opinion is tantamount to saying "the sky is falling," or dismissing them as being in "panic mode" are all pretty rude, too. I know we all want to be pithy but this kind of stuff is pretty well flamebait and can also get your account suspended.

I should jsut start reporting your posts if you're going to resort to trolling like that, Pretre.

Go for it. My response is specific to a point that he made to me. Note that I am saying that about responses in general and not about any specific person. Here, let me save you the trouble. I'll just report this post and they can take action against me as appropriate if it is trolling.

<broadcast mode active: how about you all get back on topic, instead, before we have to take action?>

andrewm9 wrote:He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine.

Truuuuuue.... but he's also not as beneficial as the sanguinary priest.

Melissia wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine.

Truuuuuue.... but he's also not as beneficial as the sanguinary priest.

That just means he will be cheaper but not by much I bet. He's virtually identical to the Ministorum Priest in the IG codex except for his improved initiative of 4. Those guys are 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest. So its anybody's guess as to what he will cost. He might be 75 points becuase he also has an extra 6+ invuln save for shield of faith (this can't be taken away by the Vindicare) or he might 25 points because his buff is less useful to the army overall who knows.

pretre wrote:It has been ignorable since C:WH came out. C:WH made it so that faith was a completely skippable part of the army list. Sooo yeah.

No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

The only difference between LC and Comm is Leadership bubble and IC special rule. It isn't a stretch. And yes, I think that the difference in what items you can choose will make a lot of the difference between Conf and Preacher. Just like it does for LC vs Commissar.

Hard to tell if it is a lame slot until we actually see 1) what slot they fill and 2) what their actual rules are. But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence.

We'll just have to wait and see then. I think with faith stacking and wargear choices, faith will still be very viable. It is very possible that I am wrong, however. Guess we won't know until we see the other half of the article.

1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

2. And yet we put forward discussion points on current data, to be met with "No point in discussing it now, we don't have all the information."

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants). The main difference between the LC/C and the Confessor/Preacher is that a regular Commisar is NOT an IC, while a Preacher IS. So while you can use a Commisar for both his special rules AND as a hidden PF/PW, the same can not be said of the Preacher, who unlike his C:WH predecessor is an IC.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will. Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

5. I still disagree on Faith. I think it's power level has been dramatically reduced. As I said, it should be central to the army. That's what Sisters are all about: Faith. And yet, we have this.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

streamdragon wrote:1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

One of the most successful builds for C:WH completely ignored faith. I'm not passing judgement on that, but it is a fact.

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants).

No, but there are wargear differences. Camo cloak is a big deal. LC also starts with a Ref Field.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will.

I have said that wargear could fix it. I have also said that it could not. My central point is that you cannot determine the competitiveness of the SOB WD codex when you only have half of it. You appear to think differently.

Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

See Manchu/Janthkin's admonitions earlier.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

I agree here. I don't think that the sharing thing will happen and I doubt I would take it if it did. Keep in mind that Retributors will probably have the option for Heavy Flamers and Immos though, based on what we've seen so far.

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:It has been ignorable since C:WH came out. C:WH made it so that faith was a completely skippable part of the army list. Sooo yeah.

No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

The only difference between LC and Comm is Leadership bubble and IC special rule. It isn't a stretch. And yes, I think that the difference in what items you can choose will make a lot of the difference between Conf and Preacher. Just like it does for LC vs Commissar.

Hard to tell if it is a lame slot until we actually see 1) what slot they fill and 2) what their actual rules are. But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence.

We'll just have to wait and see then. I think with faith stacking and wargear choices, faith will still be very viable. It is very possible that I am wrong, however. Guess we won't know until we see the other half of the article.

1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

2. And yet we put forward discussion points on current data, to be met with "No point in discussing it now, we don't have all the information."

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants). The main difference between the LC/C and the Confessor/Preacher is that a regular Commisar is NOT an IC, while a Preacher IS. So while you can use a Commisar for both his special rules AND as a hidden PF/PW, the same can not be said of the Preacher, who unlike his C:WH predecessor is an IC.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will. Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

5. I still disagree on Faith. I think it's power level has been dramatically reduced. As I said, it should be central to the army. That's what Sisters are all about: Faith. And yet, we have this.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

1. I think wargear choices tieing into the main theme of an army makes a lot of sense and adds to the customization of the army, but I think that just boils down to differences in taste.
2. I think some of the discussion has been very constructive, I think dismissing the army to being uncompetitive and pointing only to why you think this is so is not really discussion, especially when it is largely regarded that most of the rules so far have been significant changes compared to C:WH, like removing Inquistorial elements and changing the faith system. Obviously, these are bad news for people who really enjoyed those aspects.
3. Regular Commissars can't take Power Fists or Camo Cloaks, nor can they have the refractor shield; regardless, it doesn't mean the difference in wargear here needs to mimic that relationship, they could have dedicated items (Relics) for only Confessors and Cannonesses to take, leaving the lowly preachers to take more basic equipment.
4. Still missing the point. 1/2 a codex.
5. Yeah, its power level is far lower, I don't believe people really disagree with that sentiment. That being said, it still may be a very important component to the army, based on other factors that are of yet unknown.

pretre wrote:One of the most successful builds for C:WH completely ignored faith. I'm not passing judgement on that, but it is a fact.

No, but there are wargear differences. Camo cloak is a big deal. LC also starts with a Ref Field.

I have said that wargear could fix it. I have also said that it could not. My central point is that you cannot determine the competitiveness of the SOB WD codex when you only have half of it. You appear to think differently.

I agree here. I don't think that the sharing thing will happen and I doubt I would take it if it did. Keep in mind that Retributors will probably have the option for Heavy Flamers and Immos though, based on what we've seen so far.

1. Which build would that be? (Honestly asking)

2. The refractor field is less useful than NOT being an IC, IMO. The L.Com has a 5++, but the regular Com has up to 50 bodies around him that have to be killed first.

3. I have said this based on several points that I would hope we can agree that wargear can't fix:
a. Battle Sisters are less powerful than before. This is nigh on fact at this point, mostly due to:
b. Acts of Faith are less powerful than before. This is both in terms of actual effect, and in terms of availability with no unit being able to have more than 2 available to it.
c. Faith is less dependable than before. The number of Faith points is random, and can not be used on the enemy's turn.

4. Heavy Flamers back on Retributors would be a good step, but I still wouldn't take them over the current Exorcist. In fact, it would require a serious nerf to the Exorcist for me to consider it. (Or Exorcist squadrons, which I haven't ruled out just yet...)

streamdragon wrote:1. Which build would that be? (Honestly asking)

Immolator Spam

2. The refractor field is less useful than NOT being an IC, IMO. The L.Com has a 5++, but the regular Com has up to 50 bodies around him that have to be killed first.

Sure, but it is a difference, which is what we were talking about.

3. I have said this based on several points that I would hope we can agree that wargear can't fix:

Umm. Wargear might not, but unit entries and points costs could.

a. Battle Sisters are less powerful than before. This is nigh on fact at this point, mostly due to:
b. Acts of Faith are less powerful than before. This is both in terms of actual effect, and in terms of availability with no unit being able to have more than 2 available to it.
c. Faith is less dependable than before. The number of Faith points is random, and can not be used on the enemy's turn.

Faith is less powerful, so far. BS aren't less powerful because we don't know what options are available or what their cost will be.

4. Heavy Flamers back on Retributors would be a good step, but I still wouldn't take them over the current Exorcist. In fact, it would require a serious nerf to the Exorcist for me to consider it. (Or Exorcist squadrons, which I haven't ruled out just yet...)

Agreed. I haven't had any heavy but an exorcist since back in C: CA days.

Magister187 wrote:
1. I think wargear choices tieing into the main theme of an army makes a lot of sense and adds to the customization of the army, but I think that just boils down to differences in taste.
2. I think some of the discussion has been very constructive, I think dismissing the army to being uncompetitive and pointing only to why you think this is so is not really discussion, especially when it is largely regarded that most of the rules so far have been significant changes compared to C:WH, like removing Inquistorial elements and changing the faith system. Obviously, these are bad news for people who really enjoyed those aspects.
3. Regular Commissars can't take Power Fists or Camo Cloaks, nor can they have the refractor shield; regardless, it doesn't mean the difference in wargear here needs to mimic that relationship, they could have dedicated items (Relics) for only Confessors and Cannonesses to take, leaving the lowly preachers to take more basic equipment.
4. Still missing the point. 1/2 a codex.
5. Yeah, its power level is far lower, I don't believe people really disagree with that sentiment. That being said, it still may be a very important component to the army, based on other factors that are of yet unknown.

1. When a piece of wargear slightly boosts a functional rule, that's fine (See: Vox Caster, Wolf Pelt). Reducing the power of a special rule, and then supplying wargear to boost it to where it should have been in the first place is not. Imagine reducing the Synapse range of every Synapse Creature in the Nid Codex by 6", then adding a Biomorph in that boosted it back up to where it was.

2. I can only state my opinions on things, complete with arguments. That's sort of how discussion works is it not? I've pointed out how the Faith system has been dramatically weakened with my supporting arguments.

3. Regular Commisars can take a Power Fist for 15 points. Again, if I have to buy a Relic to separate my Confessor from a Preacher (other than stat line), there's a problem. The Confessor should be more stirring than a lowly Preacher, especially if he's an HQ chioce; currently he is not. He is exactly as stirring, but slightly tougher. If his sole difference is that he can take the Ecclesiarchy Battle Unit, then I'll be doubly underwhelmed. I expect to be so.

4. I'm not missing the point. It's basically a statement that there is no reasonable wargear option that could save what I see to be a glaringly underpowered codex.

5. Unless this WD Dex is a completely distinct format from existing Dexes, we've seen just about all there is for unit special rules. It's possible there will be a section labeled "Generic Acts of Faith", but all rationality says that section would have been in the preview pages we've already seen. It's possible there is some unique item available to a Confessor that will be game-changing, but unique items are now described with the unit that can take them, instead of the general wargear section.

streamdragon wrote:
4. I'm not missing the point. It's basically a statement that there is no reasonable wargear option that could save what I see to be a glaringly underpowered codex.

Of course not, but reasonable wargear combined with unit entries, options and points costs could potentially make it a well balanced codex. That's our contention.

No one is actually saying 'Wargear alone will fix everything!' We're saying that half of the codex, the half with points costs, unit entries, force org slots, unit options, wargear lists and options, etc is not available. If you were to pick up C: IG and only read pages 1-67, you would have no idea whether it is a good codex or competitive or not. That is where we are right now.

pretre wrote:1. Immolator Spam

2. Sure, but it is a difference, which is what we were talking about.

3. Umm. Wargear might not, but unit entries and points costs could.

3a. Faith is less powerful, so far. BS aren't less powerful because we don't know what options are available or what their cost will be.

1. Perhaps it's just my meta, but Immo. spam would get torn apart quickly, not to mention the issue of claiming objectives. I always got way more mileage out of an easy bake than an immolator.

2. My point was that the difference in IC status was FAR more important to the L.Com/Com distinction than gear. The Preacher lacks that distinction, being an IC.

3. No, it couldn't. For reasons I've already stated. Cheaper just means cheaper. Unit entries might theoretically contain some saving grace, but in all likelihood will not as the current Codex Format means we would have seen anything worth seeing.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

streamdragon wrote:1. Perhaps it's just my meta, but Immo. spam would get torn apart quickly, not to mention the issue of claiming objectives. I always got way more mileage out of an easy bake than an immolator.

I think you underestimate 11-15 AV11 hulls, all with melta in them, but whatever. Check the BR forum or some of the placings for national GTs. Immo spam did well.

3. No, it couldn't. For reasons I've already stated. Cheaper just means cheaper. Unit entries might theoretically contain some saving grace, but in all likelihood will not as the current Codex Format means we would have seen anything worth seeing.

I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Redbeard explained it using the changes to ork boyz, which were a nerf. Even though all of their abilities were nerfed, their cost makes them one of the most cost effective units in the game now. Hence more competitive.

Again, go look at pages 1-67 of C: IG and tell me if the dex is competitive or not without looking at the rest. You couldn't. Pages 1-67 contain the same sections that the first WD contained for sisters. Army general rules and unit descriptions/statlines. It does not contain points costs, FOC or all the other business that is necessary to build an army.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

Unless they also got buffed somewhere else.

pretre wrote:
No one is actually saying 'Wargear alone will fix everything!' We're saying that half of the codex, the half with points costs, unit entries, force org slots, unit options, wargear lists and options, etc is not available. If you were to pick up C: IG and only read pages 1-67, you would have no idea whether it is a good codex or competitive or not. That is where we are right now.

And as I've said before, I can take the half I have now. I can combine it with knowledge of the previous versions, the current game rules, the current game environment/meta and the competing forces to make the statement "this book is a step down; it will not be competitive". I could do the same thing with the 'Nid codex. Hell, looking at the unit entries for the 'Nid codex only made that book worse!

Edit to fix my quote tags.

streamdragon wrote:and as I've said before, I can take the half I have now. I can combine it with knowledge of the previous versions, the current game rules, the current game environment/meta and the competing forces to make the statement "this book is a step down; it will not be competitive". I could do the same thing with the 'Nid codex. Hell, looking at the unit entries for the 'Nid codex only made that book worse!

Then you are a magical predictor of the future. Because if you could predict IG platoons, squadroned Vendettas, LR Squadrons, HWT 0-5 just from the unit entries, you were ahead of every single other person who played the game. If you could predict from the unit entries in the Nid codex that the points costs on all MCs would be cranked through the roof, then again you are magical and should start playing the lottery.

Those things were not indicated by the unit entries, or indeed expected by the community.

streamdragon wrote:
3. Regular Commisars can take a Power Fist for 15 points. Again, if I have to buy a Relic to separate my Confessor from a Preacher (other than stat line), there's a problem. The Confessor should be more stirring than a lowly Preacher, especially if he's an HQ chioce; currently he is not. He is exactly as stirring, but slightly tougher. If his sole difference is that he can take the Ecclesiarchy Battle Unit, then I'll be doubly underwhelmed. I expect to be so.

You win, the regular commissars attached to the 5 man unblobbable command squads can take a power fist. The ones people actually take cannot.
The confessors stats, slot and wargear options would be the difference. It would be exactly like the relationship between Chaplains and Reclusiarchs in the Blood Angel Codex.

Last post for a bit. Leaving the office.

pretre wrote:I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Redbeard explained it using the changes to ork boyz, which were a nerf. Even though all of their abilities were nerfed, their cost makes them one of the most cost effective units in the game now. Hence more competitive.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

Unless they also got buffed somewhere else.

streamdragon wrote:Actually, looking through C:IG tells me a whole lot about the power level of the codex, simply by looking at the numerous special rules, weapon descriptions (Chem cannon!), orders, characters and general feel of the book. Compare the pages of C:IG to this Dex, even just a few units from C:IG and hopefully you can see why I think this Dex is underpowered. There are no special rules worth speaking of, no Acts that stand out, no unit choices that are new and exciting like there would have been if looking through the first pages of C:IG. There's nothing, not even remotely the same feel, power, variety (even if you limit the C:IG units you look at). Even the new SoB characters are dull in comparison. That's what I can look at and feel confident in saying my SoB will almost assuredly end up on the closet shelf.

/facepalm
I give up. Your cognitive powers and powers of prediction are prodigious. If you can decide how powerful or not a codex will be without looking at points costs, force org, unit options, configurations, etc., then there's nothing I can do to change your mind, nor should I.

All I can do is encourage you to use your super powers as a force of good in the world rather than evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'll give a pass on the rest of this thread for the same reason. If you all can tell what is good or not based on only half a codex, than who am I to argue.

I guess we'll see who's right when the second half comes out and people either do well competitively with it or not.

Keep the faith.

Dragon's point is you read through the IG rules and see things that make you go "that needs to be expensive!".

You read through the sisters book and see things that make you go "that needs to be cheap."

Is it enough to rule out the entire book? No. Is it starting out on a bad foot? I think so.

It is possible that the second part of the codex will somehow make this list exciting, but again all we have is what is out now and that is dissapointing. I am totally willing to entertain the possibility that in a month I will be eating my words and wondering how I could have ever doubted how awesome this WDex could be. But what I have to go on so far isn't selling me on the idea. There are a few improvements, but even more dissapointments.

Sisters had some things that were unique to them, but over the years we have been wittled down to Seraphim and Acts of Faith. Everything else seems to turn up in some marine list or another.

Now the Acts have been made unreliable (aka streamlined). The few perks don't really make the nerfs palatible to me.

The Cannoness has a decent act of faith, and if you can fire it then it can make Celestians into a more serious assault threat. But for a supreme commander, she is kinda bland.

The special characters are pretty cool as far as that goes, my only complaint with them is I don't like the models. Assuming of course they aren't crazy expensive.

The Confessors, Preachers and Battle Conclaves are all nice, but the Conclave is sort of a poor man's inquisitorial retinue. It has some hitting poer, but lacks the variety of other retinues.

Celestians outside of the command squad are just OK. 2 attacks and WS 4 are nice, but they lost holy hatred and initiative. If people are correct and this is our 2nd troop choice I guess it is ok, but confusing. The act of faith is one of the kind you would only use if you had extra faith on a turn. Unless it stacks and you are stuck in with a dread.

Dominions are nice, but they are not my core units and it is very likely that they are competing for Fast Attack slots with Seraphim. Still, hey are one of the few units I consider a solid upgrade from the old dex.

The Basic Sisters are, exactly the same but without the Acts that made them awesome. Grenades are nice and all, but honestly they are just flat unless they have some great prices and wargear.

FNP on the Repentia is good, but as others have pointed out there are a lot of S6 weapons out there, and I doubt the 6++ will save many. You are much better off relying on Celestians or Battle Conclaives for assault, especially since the Repentia can only use their alread unreliable Act of Faith in their assault phase. And (IIRC) they lose some speed.

And the Seraphim, are mostly pretty good. Two pistols, a more reliable act of faith that makes their shooting more dangerous kinda makes up for the reduced Hit and Run and Initiative. Still not great because they short ranged weapons means they will end up in assault, but I will give them slightly better than before.

The Penitant Engines have potential if they are cheap, but for the most part they are a wash. The extra attacks and upgrade on the flamer don't make up for the lost speed. I am hard pressed to no pick any other option unless they are considered troops.

The Excorcist is now an Excorcist with a 6++, another solid win, but I don't see this cutting down Excorcist spam. That is because...

Retribution Squads, the same but with less variety. Now that they can only use Devine Guidance, Why wouldn't you just use an Excorcist. If their Act gave them relelentless I could see an argument for them, but we got this tank here that, well you get the idea.

The Rhino seems to have gotten the standard upgrades, may cost less, and has the 6++. Slight improvement, but nothing to sing about.

The Immolator got a straight nerf It is now a razorback without the options. The marines must laugh out loud whenever they hear that the immolator is a design unique to the sisters. Their signature tanks is now available to marines, and the blood angles have a more expensive, but fast and power armor defeating version. Sure it is possible that the incindiary rounds are more than just fluff, but I aint holding my breath. One of the signature weapons is now nerfed to bland standardization.

So that brings me back to my point. If this list came and they released new models I could get excited. If we were stuck with the same expensive, and old models but got a fantastic list I would be excited. Instead we got a list with a lot taken away, a little given in return and one of the most dollar intensive armies on the battlefield. What is in this list to be excited about? The possibility that a month and $10 later the army will look a little better. I mean, it is not like the people who are dissapointed now are going to burn the next WD when it comes out, heck most of us will probably buy it. If we are hard on the list it is because we have waited so long for so little and we don't even get all of it at once. We have a $10 preview of our codex and the preview is dissapointing.

pretre wrote:I think I'll give a pass on the rest of this thread for the same reason. If you all can tell what is good or not based on only half a codex, than who am I to argue.

I guess we'll see who's right when the second half comes out and people either do well competitively with it or not.

Keep the faith.

Yep.

Anything written before the 2nd part of the codex comes out is premature - including what I'm about to write. But, it's fun for some, a venting release for others.

One thing I do notice from most posts is the 6++ save seems to be undervalued. The 6++ save won't help troops much, because in many cases cover will be better, and in h-t-h sisters will still lose by enough that it won't matter.

So far, I see the sisters as a mechanized force as opposed to foot sloggers like most people used to play them. The crappy 5th edition rules dictate that you are either good in h-t-h or you're mechanized. The best Guard armies are all mounted, mobile & tough to beat. I see the sisters going the same way. In this regard a 6++ save on vehicles is huge. If you have 10 vehicles in an army you'll make a few key saves each game that can really be effective.

Krytonus wrote:Anything written before the 2nd part of the codex comes out is premature - including what I'm about to write. But, it's fun for some, a venting release for others.

One thing I do notice from most posts is the 6++ save seems to be undervalued. The 6++ save won't help troops much, because in many cases cover will be better, and in h-t-h sisters will still lose by enough that it won't matter.

So far, I see the sisters as a mechanized force as opposed to foot sloggers like most people used to play them. The crappy 5th edition rules dictate that you are either good in h-t-h or you're mechanized. The best Guard armies are all mounted, mobile & tough to beat. I see the sisters going the same way. In this regard a 6++ save on vehicles is huge. If you have 10 vehicles in an army you'll make a few key saves each game that can really be effective.

Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win. Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

If you honestly think there's a chance BS4 #+ armour saves with Bolters with frag and krak (irc) are going to be sub 10 points you're ignoring every other codex.

Redbeard wrote:
Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

I can't agree. I can't help but see 4 squads of 20 Sisters much like I would see 4 squads of 20 Necron Warriors: a giant target. The difference is that the Warriors are more resistant to shooting. Too many melee units will sweep straight past your somewhat-less-than-18" engagement range straight to melee, where you will break and be run down. If you cluster for mutual unit support, you'll be multi-charged unless you deploy in a double line which makes the rear unit mostly worthless. Against shooting armies, your less-than-18" engagement range will again make you slog into long range fire for several turns before you can reply with anything but Exorcists, which will either be targeted first and killed (along with whatever fast movers you have) or be forced to hide until the horde makes shooting range.

IF you play another Mech army AND the Exorcists + specialist units crack multiple transports early, THEN you may succeed since your opponent is reduced to fighting on your terms.

As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead. The faith rules changes simply cost us too much to stay at 11 ppm for our troops, we'd have to resort to the Necron trick of min troops and max useful units. Unlike the Necrons, I don't think that's going to work as 'well' for us.

Redbeard wrote:Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

I suppose in smaller point games 80 points making or breaking a list isn't a huge deal. In a 2,000 or 2,500 point list though, should the balance really be so delicate?

Melissia wrote:...they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

bolding from me.

I had to pull this out as it struck me as ridiculous.

Against AP3 every basic troop in every army in the game is down to making a cover save.

I really do not know what you were hoping for if your expectations are that high.

Seeing that they are unmodified humans, why would they be any better than Guard once you take away the armor?