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I would go with Vendettas over Vultures, just based on the cost. Vendettas are very good anti-air though.

Punisher is on a russ and a russ dosent have to zoom. People run punisher russ with pask and you get the same thing with more armor adn versatility.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Punisher is on a russ and a russ dosent have to zoom. People run punisher russ with pask and you get the same thing with more armor adn versatility.

I see the zooming as a benefit, makes it harder to hit. The zooming is less of a problem on the vulture too since it gets two pivots per turn. Plus the vulture-punisher is cheaper and can hit air units at full BS. But, that's beyond the scope of my sister questions...

1 Pivot as per flyer rules at 90' adn the it has to move a certain distance that I dont remember off of the top of my head. Ah, well.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
1 Pivot as per flyer rules at 90' adn the it has to move a certain distance that I dont remember off of the top of my head. Ah, well.

It has the vector dancer special rule that allows it to pivot after it's move. I think most of the eldar forgeworld fliers have that too.

Well then, thanks for the information. Thats something I'll have to be aware of.

Looking for some thoughts on this list. I have been trying to find a way to squeeze Creed into a list for a little bit, as I really want to try giving Jacobus or Celestine scout and getting up in my opponent's face even faster. Putting Jacobus and conclave in a rhino and giving them scout means they have a 30" + 3d6 assault range on turn 2 (12" scout, 6" move, 6" disembark, d6 run, then 6" move and 2d6 assault) which really makes them better than they were previously.

Similarly, I can give my seraphim scout if I need to get some flamers up in the face of a horde and stall its advance.

I games, if I can establish midfield dominance I am in great shape to win the game, giving a unit scout allows me to compliment the Dominion rush and really buy my ladies the 1 turn they need to setup shop midfield. I have had solid success at 2000 points, but I am having great trouble changing my list to be viable at 1850. The 2k list uses Exorcists, an aegis line, kits out the CCS more, and uses an autocannon-spam infantry platoon (in addition to seraphim, 2x Doms, Jacobus, Celestine, and 2x BSS)... I have had to greatly change this for 1850, as seen below. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated on this, because I am leaning towards just running pure ladies at 1850, and shelving allies for 2k+ only.


HQ
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith
-->Battle Conclave of 4 Crusaders w/Axes and 5 Assassins w/Swords & Mauls, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Company Command Squad
-->Lord Castellan Creed
Sits on top of the Bastion like a poor man's Coteaz, I am really just paying a 90 point tax to let Jacobus assault something on turn 2

Troops
Battle Sister Squad
-->Multimelta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Battle Sister Squad
-->Multimelta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Veteran Squad
-->3x Plasma Gun, Chimera

Fortifications
Bastion w/Icarus Lascannon

Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
-->3 Extra Sisters, 2 Hand Flamers, Eviscerator on superior
Dominion Squad
--> 2x Meltagun, Multimelta Immolator w/Dozer Blade
Dominion Squad
--> 2x Meltagun, Multimelta Immolator w/Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
Retributor Squad
-->2 extra sisters, Similacrum Imperialis, 4x Heavy Bolter
These ladies sit in the bastion and shoot 6 heavy bolters, no big surprise

Frankly, I am not incredibly happy with the list, but I am unsure how to fix it (or, if it is even fixable at this points level). While it is very contingent on getting the first turn, that is almost never a concern for me. Between the way fliers work, last-minute objective grabbing dreams, and the fact that if I win the roll-off I am choosing first, I almost always get to go first.

quiestdeus wrote:
Looking for some thoughts on this list. I have been trying to find a way to squeeze Creed into a list for a little bit, as I really want to try giving Jacobus or Celestine scout and getting up in my opponent's face even faster. Putting Jacobus and conclave in a rhino and giving them scout means they have a 30" + 3d6 assault range on turn 2 (12" scout, 6" move, 6" disembark, d6 run, then 6" move and 2d6 assault) which really makes them better than they were previously.

You can't assault out of a vehicle and you can't assault after scouting.

Similarly, I can give my seraphim scout if I need to get some flamers up in the face of a horde and stall its advance.

This is fine.

-->Battle Conclave of 4 Crusaders w/Axes and 5 Assassins w/Swords & Mauls, Rhino w/Dozer Blade

See above. I wouldn't bother with a vehicle anymore.

Company Command Squad
-->Lord Castellan Creed
Sits on top of the Bastion like a poor man's Coteaz, I am really just paying a 90 point tax to let Jacobus assault something on turn 2]

See above. I wouldn't bother.
w/Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
Retributor Squad
-->2 extra sisters, Similacrum Imperialis, 4x Heavy Bolter
These ladies sit in the bastion and shoot 6 heavy bolters, no big surprise

Where's the rest of your heavy support? It is one of the good slots we have.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You'll have to work out points on this. If all else fails, drop the conclave and put Uriah in the Infantry Platoon.

Celestine
Uriah with Walking Conclave of 10
CCS with Lascannon, MoO (top of Bastion)

BSS with MM/Flamer, Combi, Rhino with DB
BSS with MM/Flamer, Combi, Rhino with DB
Infantry Platoon with 2 IS with AC, Bare PCSs

Bastion with Icarus
Seraphim as yours
Dominions as yours

Retributors as yours
Exorcist
Manticore or Basilisk

Aye, I understand you cannot assault out of a vehicle, or after scout - this is setting up for a turn 2 assault. Scout move, turn 1 move 6, disembark, then run. Turn 2 move then assault.

Jacobus is in the rhino to make the scout move 12", rather than 6, and to get an extra 6" move on turn 1 before disembarking.

As for the other heavy support, yeah... just did not fit. Exorcists are good, but only in bulk. 1d6 S8 shots is just too unreliable, and all the Dom's melta and Assassin's Maces can take out any armor I really need to get rid of early.

The entire list is really focused on that initial alpha-strike. Getting 4 melta guns, 2 multimeltas up close, and ensuring the battle conclave can assault on turn 2, which Creed is a necessity for.

It is not meant to be a Sisters-Guard allies list, but a "Conclave is beating your face T2, disrupting your plan and making you deal with it while everyone else gets into position" list, if that makes sense

Edit - I would love to drop the Bastion, and Retributors for 2 exorcists... but then I REALLY have nothing for Creed to be doing and he really becomes a 140 point waste, rather than a REALLY expensive TL lascannon shooter (because get can give himself Bring it Down!) so I figured Bastion + Rets was the better option. Think it is worth dropping the Simlacrum to add another lascannon to Creed's CCS?

Okay, I see what you're getting at. I just think that people will eliminate jacobus' squad after they disembark as the primary target. Weathering a turn of fire is tough, especially when they are that close.

I also think that you underestimate the importance of first turn with this list. If I see 2 doms, creed and such all in one list, you better believe I'm not giving you turn 1. Dominions are practically +1 VP for free when they scout forward since your opponent is going to pop the Immo. I have been outflanking them much more recently if I get turn 2, whereas in 5th I always kept them on the board.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
save yourself some points and go Aegis with Icarus and put Creed behind that. Plus you can use the Aegis to give you cover on your vehicles if you fail to get first turn.

Yeah, totally agree with what you're saying. I absolutely must have first turn. Fortunately, most people still under-rate Sisters out here so I should be pretty set for the 3 games this list would actually be used for (local tourney).

If I do end up with turn 2 I can outflank the Doms and give the Seraphim scout instead, or even give a BSS scout and have them outflank too.

If I go back to an aegis line, instead of a bastion, I will probably swap the Vets for a Platoon (since they now have guaranteed cover). This also gives Creed some others to order around... Or, I could keep the Vets, and drop the Retributors to try and work in 2 Exorcists (since they can take cover behind the line too).

Loving the discussion Pretre, you're making me think and I like it!!! Thanks.

Edit -> As for eliminating Jacobus, 4 Crusaders with FNP is a tough nut to crack, especially if I move their rhino to provide some LOS blocking cover in t2. I just need Jaccy and the Assassins to survive, so even if 3 or 4 of the crusaders die I will be all set. People will need to shoot Jacobus, or the dominions, and splitting fire will ensure at least something survives (assuming the dice do not completely hate me). It buys time for Celestine and the Seraphim to get up for turn 3 trouble, as well as the BSSs. I'm hoping it is a solid 1-2 punch, not to mention if I come up against a flier-heavy list... I have a chance of tabling them before the fliers come on. Even if I do not table them, the majority of my army is on their side of the board making the fliers fly over to shoot at my... guardswomen behind an aegis line? Yup, that works for me

I would do platoon w/ACs, aegis with Icarus, creed + lasc + rets.

MoO would be good for this list as well to make them spread out and potentially deploy poorly putting them into your hands. If you plan on outflanking at all, grab an Astropath.

Alrighty, this is where I am at now:


HQ
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith
-->Battle Conclave of 4 Crusaders w/Axes and 5 Assassins w/Swords & Mauls, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Company Command Squad
-->Lord Castellan Creed, Lascannon, MoO

Troops
Battle Sister Squad
-->Multimelta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Battle Sister Squad
-->Multimelta, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Rhino w/Dozer Blade
Infantry Platoon
-->PCS, Infantry Squad w/Autocannon x2

Fortifications
Aegis Line w/Icarus Lascannon

Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
-->3 Extra Sisters, 2 Hand Flamers, Eviscerator on superior
Dominion Squad
-->2x Meltagun, Multimelta Immolator w/Dozer Blade
Dominion Squad
-->2x Meltagun, Multimelta Immolator w/Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
Retributor Squad
-->4x Heavy Bolter

I have 40 points left over.
-I can add a sister to carry a simlacrum for the Rets (and give the Superior a stormbolter) and have 5 points to burn
-I can upgrade the 2 autocannons to lascannons in the Infantry squads and give the CCS camo cloaks
-I can add 2 more Seraphim and an autocannon to the PCS (leaning towards this)
-I can add an Astropath to the CCS and add an autocannon to the PCS (this is a close second)

Hell, I can do a lot of things with 40 points... Thoughts on 2 more Seraphim vs an Astropath? I have only played with 10 strong Seraphim squads lately, so I am unsure if I would really notice a difference running an 8 strong squad or not.

Get some gear for the PCS, drop the eviscerator to MB, a storm bolter and simulacrum for the rets is a good idea. and astropath if you can.

Last I checked, Creed can only outflank IG units. Are you sure you can use his ability on sisters units?

Creed can give scouts to a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. FAQ didn't change that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It didn't used to work on Seraphim when Jump Infantry were different from Infantry, but it does now.

Which is why you use it to scout a Warhound titan behind a shrub.

I had a question about using Uriah.

He has the Shield of Faith rule, does that transfer over to units he joins?

I'm confused about this because he already has a rosarius that gives him a 4+ invulnerable save, so why would he need Shield of Faith if that can't transfer to units he joins?

Shield of Faith is a personal rule that almost every sisters unit just has, the wargearr is just extra.
It will not transer to any squad he joins, not even sure where you got the idea it would.

It'll actually come in useful on rare occasions too, such as if he gets shot by a shieldbreaker round and loses the 4+ invun.

My IG-Sisters pairing did not have a pleasurable first outing. I got blasted off the table by a deathmark-cryptek list with Obyzon and Z-whatever (the guy who can swap USRs for units).

By turn 4 I had 4 guardsmen and one vendetta left.

So I am wondering if I was using my Sister allies incorrectly. I was probably using the guard incorrectly, but at least I have more experience there to overcome my bad strategy.

How do people use their full Sister's lists? What are the key units in the codex? Are the BS squads really just dead weight or can they be used well?

I probably ended up trying to use them more like marines then T3 ladies who happen to have power armor.

Any advice is appreciated.

Need slightly more information to help ya out bogalubov - what did you list look like? What did you do with your units? What did your opponent do to kill them?

Your broader questions have been answered many, many times throughout the thread. Give it a once-over. Our fast attack and heavy support slots are key, BSS are essentially a necessary evil we deal with to use our FA and HS gems. They are definitely useful, but need to be used in conjunction with other units in your list to have great success.

In IG terms, you are paying for a veteran squad with greater durability (better armor, higher lead), and better guns standard. Treat them like guardsmen who magically roll amazingly well on their armor/lead saves and you are not far off.

IG have cheaper suicide/melta squads, and you have many squads that can die in cc just as well as the BSS for cheaper. What that leaves is holding ground that is far enough out that an assault unit would have to go a turn or two out of it's way to deal with them, but close or important enough (objective) that it can't be ignored entirely. In that kind of spot, they are far harder to budge than guardsmen, can put out better fire, and are generally a pain in the tuckus for the enemy.

That's useful, but the real meat of SoB allies are going to be what you choose to take elsewhere.

I brought this list:
HQ

ccs
2x plasma
chimera

FAST ATTACK

2x vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT

2x leman russ

TROOPS

2x BSS
MM, melta
rhino

2x veteran squad
3 plasma
chimera

Uriah

PCS- flamers

3x infantry squad
autocannon
flamer

The mission was a Nova style affair. Table quarters, objectives, kill points. I kept all my tanks/transports together and moved up the center without having too many targets to shoot at the first turn. The blob with Uriah was on the right holding an objective/table quarter on some terrain. Second turn all his stuff came in and he Night Scythesed/Warrior glanced (they had tank hunter) my transports and tanks. The death marks roasted my blob and another death mark unit whittled down a sister squad. I failed a charge with my blob against the deathmarks thanks to being templated and wounded on a 2+. The vendettas got one hull point of his Night Scythes. On the following turn he basically killed everything I had left.

My biggest mistake was probably trying to take the center. I should have stayed put in a corner and spread out a little to keep deep striking to a minimum.

bogalubov wrote:
I brought this list:

The mission was a Nova style affair. Table quarters, objectives, kill points. I kept all my tanks/transports together and moved up the center without having too many targets to shoot at the first turn. The blob with Uriah was on the right holding an objective/table quarter on some terrain. Second turn all his stuff came in and he Night Scythesed/Warrior glanced (they had tank hunter) my transports and tanks. The death marks roasted my blob and another death mark unit whittled down a sister squad. I failed a charge with my blob against the deathmarks thanks to being templated and wounded on a 2+. The vendettas got one hull point of his Night Scythes. On the following turn he basically killed everything I had left.

My biggest mistake was probably trying to take the center. I should have stayed put in a corner and spread out a little to keep deep striking to a minimum.

You already know your mistake. Most SOB builds dont do well with nothing to shoot. A lot of the units are reactionary BSS are one of those. Remember they are Vets with Power armor LOL. I have run them on foot and meched up they should becoming into play turn 3 to 7 if your in the thick with them before that you have a good chance of dropping like flies. They dont do well just out in the open by themselves either they need to be supporting an element.

Pre- When are you planning on doing that SW/Sisters combo? I'd love to hear how it turns out.

Think I convinced a gurad player to take sisters allies this weekend BTW

Should've seen his face when he read our special characters.

Yes, but there's still the troop 'tax' to pay for them.

Funny that most of the specail characters (hell, pretty much all) don't really get me excited... I think their only real claim to fame is that they're actually cheaper / better than the regular HQ options. xD

Love the Repentia / Penitent Engines though.

Anyhoo - 1500pts list: Thoughts appreciated.

HQ:
Jacobus - 90
ELITES:
3x 6 Repentia, 1 Mistress - 375
TROOPS:
2x 9 Battle Sisters w/ 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Sister Superior - 260
HEAVY SUPPORT:
3x 3 Penitent Engines - 765
1487

My only issue with that list, and maybe I'm just partial to the exorcist, is that it seems like all of your Ap 1/2 is concentrated on a melee based walker. Would it be too terrible to drop a pentient unit to build in an exorcist?

9 melee based walkers and 18 Melee based infantry!

I realise it's a silly list.

Alt:
HQ:
Jacobus
Celestine
ELITES:
2x 9 Repentia, 1 Mistress
TROOPS:
2x 9 Battle Sisters w/ 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Sister Superior
Immolator - TL Multimelta
Immolator - TL Heavy Bolters w/ Inferno Bolts
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Exorcist
2x 3 Penitent Engines - 765
1490

It's not a silly list, it's what I'll try once I finish painting my repentia and engines