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 Manchu wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
For $15 you can find old MicroMachines ActionFleet models on eBay (which also retailed at $12-15 originally) that are like 3 to 4 times the size and also prepainted.

A MicroMachines X-Wing is not bigger than one of FFG's X-Wings, much less 3 -4 times larger. Also, the MicroMachines toys were not built to scale with one another and don't have the level of detail that FFG's miniatures do. I'm also not sure why anyone would want to play a wargame with larger fighters than this.

EDIT: It just noticed you're talking about Action Fleet rather than the original MicroMachines. Those things are way too big for gaming IMO.

I'm going to disagree. We used to do an awesome Hoth battle every year at Sagacon in the late 90's using 20 or so Action Fleet Snowspeeders vs 8-9 PotFII AT-ATs.

hmm .. I wouldn't mind seeing em do ATATs and snow speeders

@Mighty Godzilla: When you think about these past 35 years of SW marketing, you need to think of the difference between mass- and niche-marketing. For example, SW RPG supplements always cost more than hardcover novels. Similarly, toys cost more than war gaming miniatures. A pack of 50mm army men from the toy store cost much less than a pack of the same number of HO scale army men from the hobby store. When I talk about distribution, marketing, and licensing costs I'm talking about those costs for a game company rather than a toy company.

I think it's pretty clear that this game is reasonably priced compared to any other aspect of table top gaming. So the real question is, do you want to play it? We have to factor in game design costs and quality when we discuss the price point of components. Collecting aside, there's really no point in even talking about the components unless you actually want to play the game. Whether an X-Wing model is worth 15 USD to a gamer has more to do with the rules that inform its use than speculation about the cost of plastic.

With all that in mind, what got me interested in this game is the rules. I like the idea of list building from my 40k background. Tactically, the idea of hidden decision-making revolving around movement strikes me as exciting from turn to turn. The Gen Con demos seem to confirm this. Then I looked to the components. First off, I know the cards and chits would be high quality because FFG has demonstrated mastery of board game production over the years. Looking over the ship models, they are sculpted with exacting detail, are made to scale with each other (unlike all previous SW ship games I know of), and the pre-paint work is more than passable in my eyes.

The final check mark for me was price. In a world where RPG core books cost 50 - 60 USD, board games cost 40 -100 USD, and table top wargames cost ... well, let's not dwell on it ... I feel X-Wing is on the cheap side of reasonable. So that was all my boxes ticked. I preordered two starter sets, two X-Wing boosters, two TIE Fighter boosters, three Y-Wing boosters, a TIE Advanced booster, and extra dice (as well as a Hotz mat) because I think I will really enjoy this and want to get people in my area on board.

Reasonable people can disagree as to whether the game might be worthwhile to them. But I think the game compares very favorably in terms of component quality, tactical depth, and price across the board.


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 Platuan4th wrote:
We used to do an awesome Hoth battle every year at Sagacon in the late 90's using 20 or so Action Fleet Snowspeeders vs 8-9 PotFII AT-ATs.

What size play area did you guys use? How many games did you run simultaneously? I'm not trying to be mean but there are clearly some problems with that scale.

 Manchu wrote:


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 Platuan4th wrote:
We used to do an awesome Hoth battle every year at Sagacon in the late 90's using 20 or so Action Fleet Snowspeeders vs 8-9 PotFII AT-ATs.

What size play area did you guys use? How many games did you run simultaneously? I'm not trying to be mean but there are clearly some problems with that scale.

We only ran one game at a time and took up about a 6 foot by 8 foot floor space. The rules were also really simplistic compared to a professionally produced game. Each player ran either 1 AT-AT or 5-6 Speeders, so we had a good number of players each session. It was a huge hit with con goers that played and non-con hotel guests that always stopped and watched. I'm not saying it would work as a game like this, Warmachine, or 40K, but it's the sort of game you invite a few friends over, crack open some beers, and just have fun trash talking and making Star Wars quotes while playing. Very much an anti-SRS BSNS type of game and that if you were looking for that sort of thing, you wouldn't enjoy the event.

It's important to point out, we never held non-card game tournaments(there were small MtG and Pokemon tournaments, but they never got many attendees) at SAGAcon, we only ran larger, multi-player story based scenario events. One year we did WHFB Pelennor fields with a 40K version the next day, one year was a larger version of the Horus Heresy Siege of the Imperial Palace event we'd run at Galactic Games a few months before, that sort of thing. There was a New Orleans by Night LARP every year on Saturdays. SAGAcon was very much a casual player's con as opposed to a competitive, tourney centered con like Adepticon. Very important to know the attitude of everyone running around to understand why it was clamored for the guy to bring his stuff every year to run it.

Unfortunately, SAGA(the Southern Area Gamers Association) fell apart from internal strife caused by the various personalities running it, from what I understand.

You bring up a good topic with the casual v. competitive play aspect. My impression of X-Wing is that it's super easy to go from one to the other, unlike (for example) something like 40k or even -- considering it isn't blind-buy -- something like MtG.

two starter sets, two X-Wing boosters, two TIE Fighter boosters, three Y-Wing boosters, a TIE Advanced booster, and extra dice (as well as a Hotz mat) because I think I will really enjoy this and want to get people in my area on board.

Don't worry Manchu .. I basically did the same as it looks like the sort of game my kids and I can enjoy with little efffort.

I would expect to see this at AdeptiCon 2013 in some capacity as well. : )

I wish I could find some pics of the old Star Wars games run at GenCon in the mid 90's complete over in Milwaukee with the micro-machine fighters as well as 5-6ft long Star Destroyers (in addition to frigates, corvettes, mon cal cruisers, etc). The rules may have been simple but the ability to actually use capitol ships that close to actual scale with the fighters (not exact scale but close enough!) made it a joy to play. I'm proud to say that I commanded the left side of the Star Destroyer and destroyed many a rebel scum craft during the battle!

As fun as that was, it would be way too unwieldy for the average player (as would be a game using the fleet action scale fighters). The current size works best IMO for a tabletop, instead of the carpeted ballroom or hallway we used for the big games I mentioned above.

@Manchu All the point you bring up are sensible, good points. I don't want to come off cheap because if anyone's shelling out the $200 in my area it’ll end up being me. I have no doubt the rules will be good and to answer your question I would like to play it. I ultimately just scrutinize what I'm getting charged for and right now I'm looking at the game through binoculars as I'd have to be on the road for hours just to get to a demo. And we'll have to leave it at that.

muwhe wrote:
I would expect to see this at AdeptiCon 2013 in some capacity as well. : )

You know, that might actually get me to AdeptiCon for once, even if plastic Sisters still aren't out.

Thinking another flash in the pan game. Want it to succeed but give it 6 months.

Think the star wars wagon has long since gone. Shame nice miniatures.


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Thinking another flash in the pan game. Want it to succeed but give it 6 months.

Think the star wars wagon has long since gone. Shame nice miniatures.

warboss wrote:As fun as that was, it would be way too unwieldy for the average player

Over on the FFG forum, we've been chatting about the roll of ships larger than the Millennium Falcon. The idea seems to be that large ships basically trade all maneuverability for multiple weapon arcs, heavy shields, and armored hulls. My main thoughts are that while they would act like "interactive terrain" in mission-based play (at no points cost to either side, to be off-set by mission-specific advantages) they should have a potential tournament role just the same. But yeah ... the very largest ship we are even talking about is the GR-75 "Rebel Transport." At 90m, we're talking about a maybe 10" model that I think would cost at least 70 USD (and I figure that's conservative) so who knows if that's really feasible.

MightyGodzilla wrote:... right now I'm looking at the game through binoculars as I'd have to be on the road for hours just to get to a demo.

I'd really recommend the Team Covenant vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6RiyNb_UwE

Magnamaniac wrote:Think the star wars wagon has long since gone.

This was my thought as well. But I think FFG has the imagination and production quality to turn that around.

Magnamaniac wrote:
Thinking another flash in the pan game. Want it to succeed but give it 6 months.

Think the star wars wagon has long since gone. Shame nice miniatures.


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Maybe, but FFG has Wings of War to build on here and that is still going strong. I played a large amount of West End Star Warriors back in the day as well. Loved that game. So maybe I'm not objective on this one. : )

 Manchu wrote:

warboss wrote:As fun as that was, it would be way too unwieldy for the average player

Over on the FFG forum, we've been chatting about the roll of ships larger than the Millennium Falcon. The idea seems to be that large ships basically trade all maneuverability for multiple weapon arcs, heavy shields, and armored hulls. My main thoughts are that while they would act like "interactive terrain" in mission-based play (at no points cost to either side, to be off-set by mission-specific advantages) they should have a potential tournament role just the same. But yeah ... the very largest ship we are even talking about is the GR-75 "Rebel Transport." At 90m, we're talking about a maybe 10" model that I think would cost at least 70 USD (and I figure that's conservative) so who knows if that's really feasible.

I don't see a place for capitol (or is it capital?) ships in the game with the existing rules. Could FFG change them with a major addition to the rules ala the gargantuan and larger dragons in D&D minis? Possibly. Once you get over a foot in length (roughly 40k flyer size), it's a bit unwieldy for the average tabletop (especially the 3x3' spaces mentioned in playing this game). Scenario based large ships that are printed on a "map" (like a 4x4 map that has some space around othe edges but is otherwise covered by an image of a star destroyer) would work with actual turbolaser turret minis placed on the map. I'd see that option probably as the most financially feasible for both FFG and the player base. Even the smallest ships like the correllain corvette would have some seriously slow movement in order to make the slow fighters still faster/maneuverable comparitively with even a small turn at 1" being red (so as to limit it to every second movement).

I'd suspect from the almost spamming of subgenre core games in the 40k rpgs (I know that HBMC will disagree on that!) that we may eventually see a different scale game that incorporates the capitol ships instead of using them in this one... sort of an epic to 40k comparison. Capitol ships would be in scale with each other whereas the fighters would be mounted as a squadron to a single base (ala the B5 fleet action game).

Or maybe you would play both simultaneously. You get your capital ships arranged on one mat with one set of rules and minis at a far smaller scale and then turn to another mat and use the X-Wing rules and minis to hash out the dogfights.

 Manchu wrote:
Or maybe you would play both simultaneously. You get your capital ships arranged on one mat with one set of rules and minis at a far smaller scale and then turn to another mat and use the X-Wing rules and minis to hash out the dogfights.

Hrm... hadn't thought of that. That might be cool for really long games (like 10 hour weekend battlefests) but I can see some game scaling issues between the two. You'd likely have multiple separate simultaneous dogfights on a fleet scale game by midgame from my experience... do you set up a separate map for each furball in fighter scale? A central table with the large ships surrounded by multiple smaller tables of squadron battles? Each fleet scale turn would then be followed by 1-3+ fighter scale turns. Even with the relatively simply ruleset, that's alot of time and effort and money when you consider a mon cal cruiser has 48 fighters and a star destroyer has 72 IIRC. I think its a great idea for a continuous convention style game (buy a ticket and play till your squadron is dead, then another player/squadron comes out of the capitol ship) though. Start the battle thursday at gencon and end up with a cruiser in flames by saturday!

Good points and I can't really see a capital ship scaled game that ignores fighters.

Man I'd love to be part of a four day fleet battle, though!

 Manchu wrote:
Good points and I can't really see a capital ship scaled game that ignores fighters.

Man I'd love to be part of a four day fleet battle, though!

We should make that happen.

Manchu wrote:Good points and I can't really see a capital ship scaled game that ignores fighters.

Man I'd love to be part of a four day fleet battle, though!

The one I mentioned above with the 5+ ft star destroyer models went for the whole day (multiple gencon 4 hour blocks that you got tickets for). I guess it might suck if you got the star destroyer at the end of the day only to find out it was almost dead from 8 hours of constant rebelscum strafing runs. I found myself stopping by multiple times that day to see how my ol' ship was doing throughout the rest of the battle as well as how the other days' battles went.

Platuan4th wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Good points and I can't really see a capital ship scaled game that ignores fighters.

Man I'd love to be part of a four day fleet battle, though!

We should make that happen.

It might work for a big con if enough people organized and brought their collections with them. The only commercially available model of a somewhat appropriate size Imperial star destroyer was shut down by lucasfilm a few years ago. The closest legal and affordable Imperial option without resorting to legos I can think of is the Venator class Star Destroyer model but that's clearly a clone wars era ship so many rankle a few feathers.



Pic next to the WOTC SSB version of the same ship.

 warboss wrote:


It might work for a big con if enough people organized and brought their collections with them. The only commercially available model of a somewhat appropriate size Imperial star destroyer was shut down by lucasfilm a few years ago. The closest legal and affordable Imperial option without resorting to legos I can think of is the Venator class Star Destroyer model but that's clearly a clone wars era ship so many rankle a few feathers.



Pic next to the WOTC SSB version of the same ship.

I was gonna suggest the old Collector's Fleet toys from the 90's, but then I remembered that the Mon Cal was cancelled before it was released. Even then, I think only the Corellian Corvette is the closest to correct scale.

If this game takes off well Id expect to see some scratch built capitol ships being made for cons and such.

I'll wait and see what the local price is going to be, that might be a big factor of whether or not it will pick up around here.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
If this game takes off well Id expect to see some scratch built capitol ships being made for cons and such.

I have been thinking papercraft. Can't remember if I've mentioned it here, but the Lego kit for Tantive VI is about the right scale length-wise.

yeah,

 BrookM wrote:
I'll wait and see what the local price is going to be, that might be a big factor of whether or not it will pick up around here.

I'm hoping Darksphere also stock this game as I'd like to support my closest FLGS.

But I noticed Wayland Games have it up for preorder no release date yet.
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/fantasy-flight-games/x-wing/cat_1255.html

Star Wars X-Wing £26.99
X-Wing: Dice Pack £6.29
X-Wing: Tie Advanced Expansion Pack £10.79
X-Wing: Y-Wing Expansion Pack £10.79
X-Wing: Tie Fighter Expansion Pack £10.79
X-Wing: X-Wing Expansion Pack £10.79


Question,
If I buy one X-wing and one Tie-Fighter expansion pack, I'll have all the named pilots contained within those packs..
I should then be OK to buy extra copies of the base game to get extra xwing and tie fighters at a discount? plus extra dice??

Panic...

Not sure of the separate xwing and tie fighter blisters have different characters in them or not... but yeah it's a better deal to get another starter if those are the only ships you want, and you'll also get all the extra dice, templates and everything else.

 Panic wrote:

If I buy one X-wing and one Tie-Fighter expansion pack, I'll have all the named pilots contained within those packs..
I should then be OK to buy extra copies of the base game to get extra xwing and tie fighters at a discount? plus extra dice??

Correct-a-mundo. Just keep in mind that if you want Vader, you gotta get the TIE Advanced. (There's no way he's getting into one of those shield-less death traps!)

My goal was to have enough ships to take things to 200 points for both sides. So I pre-ordered two starters and a dice booster along with some of the ship boosters. (Each starter comes with three attack dice (red) and three defense dice (green). The trouble is that an X-Wing at Range 1 rolls four dice.) All in all, I'll start with:

- 3 X-Wings
- 3 Y-Wings
- 1 TIE Advanced
- 6 TIE Fighters

If the larger point games are really fun, I'll probably round that out with three more X-Wings, four more TIE Fighters, and one or two more TIE Advanced, to get up to the 300 tier. If online price tags remain stable after launch, that means I'll probably buy two more starter sets. The great thing about starter sets is they not only come with ships, cards, chits, and dice -- they also come with the measurement tools. The thing I am really wanting to do is see four to six people play a game together on a 6' x 4' table, which would require plenty of dice and plenty of measurement tools.


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 Necros wrote:
Not sure of the separate xwing and tie fighter blisters have different characters in them or not...

Yes and no. Pilot-wise,

For the X-Wings, the starter includes:
- Rookie Pilot
- Red Squadron Pilot
- Biggs Darklighter
- Luke Skywalker

The X-Wing expansion includes:
- Rookie Pilot
- Red Squadron Pilot
- Garven Dreis
- Wedge Antilles

For the TIEs, the starter includes:
- 2x Academy Pilot
- 2x Black Squadron Pilot
- 2x Obsidian Squadron Pilot
- "Mauler" Mithel

The TIE Fighter expansion includes:
- Academy Pilot
- Black Squadron Pilot
- Obsidian Squadron Pilot
- "Winged Gundark"
- "Backstabber"
- "Howlrunner"

What size game table is recommended for 100pt games? 3x3?

That's right.

 Manchu wrote:
I have been thinking papercraft.

I was thinking along those lines too. Im thinking some various sizes and shapes of cardboard, Styrofoam, foamboard, plasticard, etc should do it. Nice things about Star Wars is there is no shortage of pictures of the ships, from all kinds of angles.

Does anyone make a correlian corvette in this scale? It would need to be like 12.5 times the length of an x-wing. I think that is a reasonable size.

As I mentioned above, the closest thing length-wise is the Lego kit. It's currently going for about 200 USD on ebay.