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It's not that much of a big a deal to me, I assume they simply ran out of cash/time to fund restic tools for the command bits and technically speaking, the original description on the KS page did not specify that command pieces were included (I checked), so there's not any dishonesty going on there.

They did go out of their way to make the men-at-arms hard plastic, so I'm happy to cut them a little slack there.

I'm going to have to remember to ask questions like these during the KS campaign itself in future, though... the devil is in the details!

 scarletsquig wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the metal command pieces (for all of the basileans and a bunch of other units) and their non-inclusion in the KS boxes.

I'd have thought that would have been a more relevant point to raise than complaining about the crossbowmen, which weren't part of the KoW KS at all.

I think it's more reasonable to complain about something that was included in the KS rather than something that wasn't. I realize that KS show preliminary work that may change etc but the concept art should be the primary guiding factor for what the end model looks like. If people were shown a piece of concept art, they should stick with that as close as possible barring something out of their control (like offering free rare earth magnets with a conversion kit and then having rare earth magnet prices increase 500% in the coming months) rather than something totally in their control (like accepting a sculpt that didn't jibe with the art. I'd put complaining about something that was never mentioned ever in the KS as firmly in the unreasonable complaint camp. Would it be nice to have them? Sure. Would I expect it? No... but I would expect them to stick as closely as possible to what they did show in the KS and not just have an artistic "inspiration" and change the models on a later whim.

 scarletsquig wrote:
It's not that much of a big a deal to me, I assume they simply ran out of cash/time to fund restic tools for the command bits and technically speaking, the original description on the KS page did not specify that command pieces were included (I checked), so there's not any dishonesty going on there.

I'm going to have to remember to ask questions like these during the KS campaign itself in future, though... the devil is in the details!

I'm plenty annoyed by it. And we shouldn't have to ask questions like these during the KS itself. Kits coming with command options are pretty damn standard. It'd be like having to ask if we're getting bases with all the models we pledge for.

command bits = space on a tool. They'd have needed more money.

Not trying to prove you wrong, but in my email of feedback to Stuart I did complain about the figures not matching the concept art that we based our pledges on - I showed both the final figures as painted by winterdyne and the concept art you linked, this was his reply:

and what concept art was that??

 Black Nexus wrote:
command bits = space on a tool. They'd have needed more money.

Not trying to prove you wrong, but in my email of feedback to Stuart I did complain about the figures not matching the concept art that we based our pledges on - I showed both the final figures as painted by winterdyne and the concept art you linked, this was his reply:

and what concept art was that??

For KoW there were multiple instances where the art didn't make it to the final model, the most egregious being the cat cavalry who were supposed to be amazons riding monstrous creatures and wound up being chicks on house cats. Another is Wildcard in the last kickstarter...etc.

There was no concept art for cat cavalry (until it was art for the final models), and they were never supposed to be amazons riding the cats - it was always nuns of some kind. You did get the monstrous part right at least.

decker_cky wrote:
There was no concept art for cat cavalry (until it was art for the final models), and they were never supposed to be amazons riding the cats - it was always nuns of some kind. You did get the monstrous part right at least.

Obviously sarcasm is lost on some people. amazon, nun, they're both women, one of them is just more militant than the other. The trolls were definitely unlike their concept but by the time they had shown them, the prototypes had already been sent off to be tooled. I'm indifferent to all of it because I'm happy with what I actually plan to keep which are the ogres, I'll trade the rest off.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
I am thinking more and more if they weren't so sidetracked with Dreadball and Deadzone this Kickstarter would have had a lot better miniatures to show for it, and a lot happier customers.

That one is clearly a no-brainer.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love how they were so anxious to open their Deadzone KS that they couldn't wait a month until after their KoW pledge manager closed, forcing Mantic Fanatics to choose between projects, cannibalizing their sales, and scaring away potential DZ backers by pissing off KoW backers at just the right time. Bravo.

My guess is that it's got something to do with production windows, etc. Still, you're 100% correct from the perspective of us customers. In fact, obvious point is obvious (but not to Mantic???)

 scarletsquig wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the metal command pieces (for all of the basileans and a bunch of other units) and their non-inclusion in the KS boxes.
I'd have thought that would have been a more relevant point to raise than complaining about the crossbowmen, which weren't part of the KoW KS at all.
I don't care about the material (hybrid restic is a bit pants, but I can deal if it's just 1-2 models), but it would have been nice to have them included, for both the retail and KS releases rather than being bitz packs.

People did mention it. I've certainly read about it here, and I agree that they should be included - and restic as well - didn't they learn from the Goblins or Enforcers?

Oh, and hopefully Topps are paying them cash to make the Mars Attacks thing happen, I think a Mars Attacks KS would be a bit of a stretch at this point. Of course, they'll need to sculpt and tool that range alongside the remaining KoW stuff, Dreadball season 3, all of Deadzone. I'm amazed they get any sleep.

Product Licencing. I'm not sure you know how that works? They're paying Topps for a licence. Topps aren't going to be paying Mantic. My concern here, (aside from having no personal interest at all in MA,) is if they put their best foot forward for the MA licence and pull Remy off other projects and put him to work on MA. You know, so they can show off their highest-quality work to Topps and future licencors.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Black Nexus wrote:
command bits = space on a tool. They'd have needed more money.

Not trying to prove you wrong, but in my email of feedback to Stuart I did complain about the figures not matching the concept art that we based our pledges on - I showed both the final figures as painted by winterdyne and the concept art you linked, this was his reply:

and what concept art was that??

Product Licencing. I'm not sure you know how that works

Math is hard, I'd rather go shopping.

Agree that they definitely have enough on their plate already, though... doesn't look like we'll get Warpath until 2015 at this rate, what with KoW/Dreadball/Deadzone/the next DKH/Loka/ Mars Attacks all scheduled to happen before it.

Looking at those trolls, they remind me of the goombas from the Super Mario Bros. movie.

The sad thing is that they would have been fantastic if they'd just put bigger legs on them.

I'm quite interested in seeing ScarletSquig's step-by-step rebuild using the Reaper Trolls/Ogres. I'm not being sarcastic.

Unbelievable badly sculpted trolls everything looks just amateurish. I guess that probably time pressures had some influence on this? I personally don't mind waiting for good models rather than see this rushed stuff produced.

As for prices these could be free and I would still not want them on my collection.

Missed chance.

Honestly this campaign is probably the biggest disappointment I've had with Kickstarter to date.

Almost everything so far has just been a big letdown, The plastic goblins i received during the first wave were just terrible quality miniatures with almost no detail. And out of all the 'BOGOF' miniatures shown so far im struggling to like more than 30% of them. I spent a grand total of $345 on the campaign, and at this point im worried that I've thrown a good chunk of that directly down the drain...

I'm honestly a little concerned about this one.

Granted, I just kept it simple and dropped for an undead army, but the trap on thier end is throwing in all of the excessive streach "Goals". I think they shot themselves in the foot on this one.

I mean that it might have to be said that Mantic is seeming to give themselves the rep that they are maybe promising a little TOO MUCH that they can't deliver. Then to go so far off of the concept art that was practicly the only thing they had at the time? I thought that they made a post at one point fawning over the old art and actually had a sculpt in there at one time. Then to see the end product, so far off the mark... It's a little underwhelming.

I can see that some might like those trolls, but honestly- they were not what was shown in the beginning.

If my zombie werewolves end up in the same state, I might have to rethink pledging for future Mantic Projects.

I've already re-thought it... piggy-backed onto someone's Dreadball pledge but that's it for me. Their stuff needs to be sculpted First, not shown off as art, given their track record of matching art with sculpts.

I realize that things can be conceptualized and sold while other things are sculpted and even others are going through their Chinese prison labor production runs but it seems like mantic may be overdoing it with the massive kickstarter every 4 months schedule. I'd personally prefer if they didn't have more than 2 things on their "to do" plate at any one time. At this point, they've got that chess set, KOW, dreadball (don't recall if they've had a second season), and deadzone... and the tone in most of their threads seems a lot less optimistic than just a year ago.

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Honestly this campaign is probably the biggest disappointment I've had with Kickstarter to date.

Almost everything so far has just been a big letdown, The plastic goblins i received during the first wave were just terrible quality miniatures with almost no detail. And out of all the 'BOGOF' miniatures shown so far im struggling to like more than 30% of them. I spent a grand total of $345 on the campaign, and at this point im worried that I've thrown a good chunk of that directly down the drain...

The Dreadball KS is ending up exactly the same way. Terrible quality casting. Poor mold design. Questionable translation of concept art. Deceptive promises on 'fixing' greens which are clearly flawed with "it looks better in person" or "model is not 100% done". Total lack of experienced sculptors to handle the bandwidth of models promised. Zero art direction or QC.

Mantic seems very deceptive and is clearly just doing things as cheaply as possible. They are exploiting kickstarter because they can trick people into backing models unseen, and 'they already have our money'. If they let people cancel pledges or get refunds due to unsatisfactory products, I bet the company would implode at this stage. The only reason they can keep this up is because they already have our money and we can't get it back.

I don't even remember 100% what I ordered at this point, lol.

I just want my stuff to get here sooner rather than later.

I know I spread it out amongst factions so I can have small armies of each. That way if they look odd, they can look odd fighting each other.

nkelsch wrote:

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Honestly this campaign is probably the biggest disappointment I've had with Kickstarter to date.

Almost everything so far has just been a big letdown, The plastic goblins i received during the first wave were just terrible quality miniatures with almost no detail. And out of all the 'BOGOF' miniatures shown so far im struggling to like more than 30% of them. I spent a grand total of $345 on the campaign, and at this point im worried that I've thrown a good chunk of that directly down the drain...

The Dreadball KS is ending up exactly the same way. Terrible quality casting. Poor mold design. Questionable translation of concept art. Deceptive promises on 'fixing' greens which are clearly flawed with "it looks better in person" or "model is not 100% done". Total lack of experienced sculptors to handle the bandwidth of models promised. Zero art direction or QC.

Mantic seems very deceptive and is clearly just doing things as cheaply as possible. They are exploiting kickstarter because they can trick people into backing models unseen, and 'they already have our money'. If they let people cancel pledges or get refunds due to unsatisfactory products, I bet the company would implode at this stage. The only reason they can keep this up is because they already have our money and we can't get it back.

OK nkelsch you've been going on about this for a while now. Understandably as course, the miniatures you received are quite clearly below the standards you should expect. I have several teams on order for season 2; if they turn up in the same condition as you, they will be heading straight back to Mantic for a replacement. Of course I think you need to be doing exactly the same!

I have to be honest I've bought a fair number of models from Mantic, from across the range (Orx, Forge Fathers, dreadball etc.) I've never seen anything that bad, which makes me think it is possibly the exception rather than the rule. One problem I had was with the goblin archers, which were absolutely appalling - I've found at since that Mantic used a Chinese caster for the first and only time with them, and the results tell you why. The fact that I had only paid £10 for a box of about 50 of them in a sale (and couldn't be arsed) was the only reason they didn't get returned. In my mind that is the one obviously negative action that Mantic have carried out so far - those models should quite obviously have been removed from sale.

Otherwise though I'm afraid I don't see that much merit in your criticism, but more to do with the methods of Kickstarter itself, and the nature of the beast in that you are giving money to something blind. With the KS that Mantic have run so far you are getting a ridiculous amount of miniatures for the money pledged - but part of that presumably involves a risk on the behalf of the buyer. Before pledging on the new Deadzone KS I've taken a good look at Mantic's back catalogue and the models I own, and worked out what might be considered a reasonable amount to pledge from there. Really some of the onus has to be on the purchaser, as it's going to be impossible to please all of the pledges all of the time when the KS is carried out in this fashion. The problem is, when you have already stated that you dislike the look of Mantic's orx and other lines, isn't that always going to be taking a risk to hope that they will change style to suit what you yourself prefer?

I do think that Mantic are still a very young (and small!) company, that despite some experienced people is still finding its way somewhat. This new range of Dreadball, and the new Deadzone, I think are definite steps in the right direction. A lot of the KoW stuff for that matter looks pretty cool, and I wonder sometimes at what people actually thought they were going to get with this, especially considering how subjective the whole thing is? I wouldn't sink them just yet as a bunch of diabolical charlatans out to take our money, as you are implying, in any case.

 Pacific wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Honestly this campaign is probably the biggest disappointment I've had with Kickstarter to date.

Almost everything so far has just been a big letdown, The plastic goblins i received during the first wave were just terrible quality miniatures with almost no detail. And out of all the 'BOGOF' miniatures shown so far im struggling to like more than 30% of them. I spent a grand total of $345 on the campaign, and at this point im worried that I've thrown a good chunk of that directly down the drain...

The Dreadball KS is ending up exactly the same way. Terrible quality casting. Poor mold design. Questionable translation of concept art. Deceptive promises on 'fixing' greens which are clearly flawed with "it looks better in person" or "model is not 100% done". Total lack of experienced sculptors to handle the bandwidth of models promised. Zero art direction or QC.

Mantic seems very deceptive and is clearly just doing things as cheaply as possible. They are exploiting kickstarter because they can trick people into backing models unseen, and 'they already have our money'. If they let people cancel pledges or get refunds due to unsatisfactory products, I bet the company would implode at this stage. The only reason they can keep this up is because they already have our money and we can't get it back.

OK nkelsch you've been going on about this for a while now. Understandably as course, the miniatures you received are quite clearly below the standards you should expect. I have several teams on order for season 2; if they turn up in the same condition as you, they will be heading straight back to Mantic for a replacement. Of course I think you need to be doing exactly the same!

I have to be honest I've bought a fair number of models from Mantic, from across the range (Orx, Forge Fathers, dreadball etc.) I've never seen anything that bad, which makes me think it is possibly the exception rather than the rule. One problem I had was with the goblin archers, which were absolutely appalling - I've found at since that Mantic used a Chinese caster for the first and only time with them, and the results tell you why. The fact that I had only paid £10 for a box of about 50 of them in a sale (and couldn't be arsed) was the only reason they didn't get returned. In my mind that is the one obviously negative action that Mantic have carried out so far - those models should quite obviously have been removed from sale.

Otherwise though I'm afraid I don't see that much merit in your criticism, but more to do with the methods of Kickstarter itself, and the nature of the beast in that you are giving money to something blind. With the KS that Mantic have run so far you are getting a ridiculous amount of miniatures for the money pledged - but part of that presumably involves a risk on the behalf of the buyer. Before pledging on the new Deadzone KS I've taken a good look at Mantic's back catalogue and the models I own, and worked out what might be considered a reasonable amount to pledge from there. Really some of the onus has to be on the purchaser, as it's going to be impossible to please all of the pledges all of the time when the KS is carried out in this fashion. The problem is, when you have already stated that you dislike the look of Mantic's orx and other lines, isn't that always going to be taking a risk to hope that they will change style to suit what you yourself prefer?

I do think that Mantic are still a very young (and small!) company, that despite some experienced people is still finding its way somewhat. This new range of Dreadball, and the new Deadzone, I think are definite steps in the right direction. A lot of the KoW stuff for that matter looks pretty cool, and I wonder sometimes at what people actually thought they were going to get with this, especially considering how subjective the whole thing is? I wouldn't sink them just yet as a bunch of diabolical charlatans out to take our money, as you are implying, in any case.

Shenanigans... Getting a replacement can't move the mold lines to a different part of the model or remove the injection points. Unlike horrible finecast where you can actually cast enough times and get a flawless model, their molds are impossible to produce a satisfactory model from the molds as currently tooled. Those peoblems are with QC, not the mold or model design. These are flaws with the mold themselves. Getting replacements cannot fix the problems with these models due to the design of the molds. The only acceptable answer is a complete refund or new models in a totally different material with new molds.

I also declare shenanigans on the idea that Mantic gets to skirt by on the 'buyer beware' kickstarter model that we should expect to be deceived, screwed and get inferior products due to the sheer number of models. Other KSs are fulfilling their requirements without producing shoddy , poorly sculpted trash and without lying to us about sculpts and when they make poor models, execute a campaign to avoid showing us WIPs with lame excuses about 'not enough time to take photos' because they are so busy sending them to get cast before even checking if the models are good enough for purchase.

They are making garbage and being deceptive in every step of the way. They are not improving, ignoring feedback and are speeding up thier KS model to take in even more money faster and faster before their failed deliveries catch up with them.

Deviating so far from the concept on the Trolls is pretty hard to forgive. I don't think the excuses really hold water.

The other stuff is not so bad in my view, some of the sculpts are less than perfect but then the price is very low so I would tolerate that. They at least look pretty much as I'd expect based on the concepts. The trolls are very different and extremely stylised.

Shenanigans... Getting a replacement can't move the mold lines to a different part of the model or remove the injection points. Unlike horrible finecast where you can actually cast enough times and get a flawless model, their molds are impossible to produce a satisfactory model from the molds as currently tooled. Those peoblems are with QC, not the mold or model design. These are flaws with the mold themselves. Getting replacements cannot fix the problems with these models due to the design of the molds. The only acceptable answer is a complete refund or new models in a totally different material with new molds.

I also declare shenanigans on the idea that Mantic gets to skirt by on the 'buyer beware' kickstarter model that we should expect to be deceived, screwed and get inferior products due to the sheer number of models. Other KSs are fulfilling their requirements without producing shoddy , poorly sculpted trash and without lying to us about sculpts and when they make poor models, execute a campaign to avoid showing us WIPs with lame excuses about 'not enough time to take photos' because they are so busy sending them to get cast before even checking if the models are good enough for purchase.

They are making garbage and being deceptive in every step of the way. They are not improving, ignoring feedback and are speeding up thier KS model to take in even more money faster and faster before their failed deliveries catch up with them.

You better reign in yourself. Some of the stuff you are claiming would call for legal action, but if it is not founded on facts it also can be seen as a valid reason for legal action.
I doubt Mantic will react in such a way to such drivel, but other companies are not that nice. Do yourself a favor and abstain from such writing in the future.

There are some minis right now that are not great, but there are also a lot that look quite nice. That was to be expected at that price. And since you mention other KS. Sedition Wars did an excellent job on their minis, but even they get bashed by your likes. The nuns e.g. are a reason to complain and you should be ver vocal about it. BUT, what you are writing is completly out of focus ...

Deviating so far from the concept on the Trolls is pretty hard to forgive.

There were two concepts, the one with armor, the other with less armor. The majority of the pledgers wanted the one with less armor. So posting the first design and then complaining they are not up to it is a little bit unfair. If anything you should compare them to the second and final design, which the minis resemble quite a lot.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:



You better reign in yourself. Some of the stuff you are claiming would call for legal action, but if it is not founded on facts it also can be seen as a valid reason for legal action.
I doubt Mantic will react in such a way to such drivel, but other companies are not that nice. Do yourself a favor and abstain from such writing in the future.

There are some minis right now that are not great, but there are also a lot that look quite nice. That was to be expected at that price. And since you mention other KS. Sedition Wars did an excellent job on their minis, but even they get bashed by your likes. The nuns e.g. are a reason to complain and you should be ver vocal about it. BUT, what you are writing is completly out of focus ...

Do yourself a favor and carry Mantic's water elsewhere.

Everything I have said has been based off of physical evidence (which I have provided photos which clearly show the mold line issues which points directly to the design of the molds) or Mantic's own statements where they either failed to address the legitimate concerns or flat out made false statements, especially about the WIP sculpts. And I can review the quality of the product provided to me as I see fit. No one can refute the statements of mantic or the issues going on with casting and sculpting. They just make excuses why we should be accepting of it like you did. No one is making false statements.

Other companies make cheap minis without having casting issues or poorly sculpted models, And can match the concept art... Some would call not matching concept art bait and switch... or at least feel disappointed if not officially decieved.

I think that Nkelsch is overly aggressive in his comments, but he's got a solid point.

The agreement between a supporter and Mantic regarding the kickstarter will no doubt be met. Nobody signed a contract for a specific model at a specific time. Everything they do is legal.

That said, it's harder and harder for me to support Mantic when I see some of the stuff they do. Even if not malicious, it's mind boggling. I'm worried that they are going to go further and further down the "hey, it's cheap, what do you expect" route. Not getting pictures out was just bizarre.

I like Mantic, I like the elves, I like the trolls, and I'm excited about the possibllities. Alas, it's been a series of misfires lately.

Actually Dreadball minis look al fine in person, can´t understand the ranting there. It should be clear to anyone that unprimed grey plastic looks not as good when prhotographed. And such photos seem to be the basis for most critics.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Actually Dreadball minis look al fine in person, can´t understand the ranting there. It should be clear to anyone that unprimed grey plastic looks not as good when prhotographed. And such photos seem to be the basis for most critics.

So my eyes are not seeing the mold lines across the faces of models and the twiist off injection points which are on the side of the face of the Zzor and amage the eye of the model?

Injection points on the shoulder which have damaged the armor. Injection points on the side of the Zzor heads which damage the face, They could have been put in other locations. Horrible flash and mold lines.


Injection points on the shoulder pads not the pegs, there is one on the toe of the foot. Modl lines which are almost uncleanable on the face. I have been cleaning models for 20+ years and no filing or exacto knifing is going to get that off the face of the model without causing damage which will either have to be hidden with paint or resculpted with GS.


But some people like yourself assume I am photoshopping these, and that these don't point to simply poor mold design or an issue with the material, or how the machines were being 'rushed' by casting and releasing too quickly. Oh and these are supposedly very few, even though others have taken pictures of entire teams this bad or worse. Apparently if I don't photograph every model I have ever received, it is easy to dismiss all fo this as falsehoods. My entire Mantic range from Dreadball is in this state and these models cannot be cleaned without harming detail due to the design of the molds and location of the injection points and mold lines.

I am not disliking the style of these models. This is pure mechanical failures documented with photographs which shows a casting/mold company not aware of what it takes to make miniatures and it should give Mantic real pause to not simply go with the cheapest company in china, but maybe investigate using a company which is experienced in miniature casting. This is legitimate feedback which Mantic seems to dodge when questioned.

I will say, Wildcard still looks bad in person. Buzzcut's pose is still absurd. Number 88 Still has no added detail on the gauntlet as promised and the Judiwan falling on his ass was not changed as promised. If Mantic would have said: "These are final shots, sorry if you don't like them" I would have respected it more than "These are WIP and we will fix the issues" and then proceed to never show WIPs again and complain how there is no time to take photos of WIPs or compelted molds before machining (even though every sculptor/painter takes photos they don't release until allowed so Mantic could provide us photos if they wanted.)

Mantic seem to have rushed into too many Kickstarters at once, over committing and failing to deliver a satisfactory product to at least a noticeable portion of their fanbase. That's poor going, and I hope they learn from it, as I like Mantic,mespecially their approach to rules design and their Undead plastics, the new Enforcers are lovely too.

I do have a lot if Dreadball Minis and no problems. Sure there were some gamers that got bad minis, but that can always happen and you should be able to get damaged minis replaced. The prominent mold-lines are quite easy to clean up don´t know hat your problem is with them.

The problem with the mold peg is: The mold consists of two halves and the peg can´t be placed on the side but has to be placed on the top. From your pictures I can see that someone tore the parts from the sprue instead of clipping it and because of this damaged that part. Ask for replacement would be my suggestion.

Official pics of the Basilean Sisterhood and Paladins: