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Look at at it this way - with the Ogres dropping in price you're basically only 'short' about $15-17,50 in minis when the whole thing is put in the worst possible light. (TBH I never really saw the value in that pledge to begin with but that's a different story)
I get your frustration though - doesn't feel quite 'right'. did you BOGO (or whatever you want to call it) the pledge up to over $175? If you didn't I can see how this really is a significant part of total value you pledged for.
Maybe you could get them to let you switch the $110 veteran for $42,50 Soldier+counters (which you should have already received) and 67,50 BOGOF credit? at least that way you'd get to pick your own stuff and it never really would have contained more value than that anyway so that would have you even if I'm not mistaken?

 Alpharius wrote:
Complaining about the secondhand value on these miniatures seems a bit...odd...

You perhaps misunderstand. Or perhaps I was less clear than I could have been.

A counterpoint that's been used several times to the argument of "some of the figures are gak" is "you can sell them and make a killing secondhand". I'm basically saying that it's not a very useful counter-argument before someone throws the "sell them secondhand!" back at me. And besides, I'd rather have good figures that I can and will use myself. Because, you know, that's why I backed them in the first place.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Look at at it this way - with the Ogres dropping in price you're basically only 'short' about $15-17,50 in minis when the whole thing is put in the worst possible light. (TBH I never really saw the value in that pledge to begin with but that's a different story)
I get your frustration though - doesn't feel quite 'right'. did you BOGO (or whatever you want to call it) the pledge up to over $175? If you didn't I can see how this really is a significant part of total value you pledged for.
Maybe you could get them to let you switch the $110 veteran for $42,50 Soldier+counters (which you should have already received) and 67,50 BOGOF credit? at least that way you'd get to pick your own stuff and it never really would have contained more value than that anyway so that would have you even if I'm not mistaken?

I went for that level (and so did my wife) because we wanted to specifically build an Ogre army based on the great Mantic concept art, along with some old-school citadel models. (As well as make a Mordor troll horde via BOGOF, as noted earlier in the thread). Since my wife is learning to paint, working on larger models is something that fit our plans well. That pledge level was where the best outcome for a shirtload of ogres was at the time, but with the changes to retail, changes to BOGOF and addition to the "ogre army deal" it seems like we've essentially been shafted to the tune of 9-18 ogres between us. (9 each, since the Backer-level ogres didn't double like the retail ones, or gain 50% value like the BOGOF ones did).

I'm not sure what's going on with things like the Cathorse cavalry. They were a monstrous unit of 3, now they're a regular unit of 5. Do backers over $225 or whatever it was still only get 3, despite the downgrade from monstrous to regular? Nothing has been said. Having said that, things like that "free extras" worry me less than seeing a large shift in the value of my backing compared to the retail. I believe the $225 comes with 3 free ogres as well. I'm not upset at those not being bumped to 6, because those are "free", but when you're changing the value/quantities of stuff that's "core" rather then free, then it gets quite annoying.

Your option may work, but it just appears to be getting needlessly complicated, and at this stage I'm tired of the mess and wait to see the other sculpts. For me I'm feeling like I'll just get my stuff and wash my hands of Mantic. It's certainly not endearing me to give them more money via KS.

Back soon.

^ Azazel, if you email Stew he will make sure that you get 9 ogres for $25 instead of 6.

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Azazel, if you email Stew he will make sure that you get 9 ogres for $25 instead of 6.

No, he's saying the $110 pledge level became a worse value because he's getting much less models than if he had just a bunch of BOGO Ogres.

Oh I see.

Well, the $110 level never stated that it contained any BOGOFs at any point, so while it's an annoying fringe case, it is accurate to the letter of the terms of sale.

All of the basic pledge levels offered less value than BOGOF, not just Soldier.

Champion, ($100 level) offers even less discount off RRP if you compare it to the prices in the Mantic store, the basic pledges were all designed to provide a small discount, the idea was that the stretch goal freebies were the things providing the massive value.

That said, if it's just a matter of throwing in 3 ogres, that should be easy to sort out.. sorry you couldn't get it sorted, scipio, I think the issue here is Mantic being £10k in the red with the KoW KS at this point already and they don't really have much room to budge on stuff where they're not technically doing anything wrong.

I am wondering if they are likely to modify all of the pledge levels that include ogres. We still don't know if the $125 level has a command squad of Ogres, or just the command upgrade. If it does, it's pretty much right on the $125 amount that it's listed at. If not, it's around $115 in value in comparison to using the bogof choices.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I think the issue here is Mantic being £10k in the red with the KoW KS at this point already and they don't really have much room to budge on stuff where they're not technically doing anything wrong.

Whoa, when did this happen? What?


Also, I'm not sure "misleading customers with the truth" or "pissing off the fanbase" count as "not technically doing anything wrong."


Oh, and I would love to see some sprue pics for the Men at Arms. Also, pictures of all the other models.

The word "technically" was used for a reason, I agree that it's more the spirit of the offer that counts than the minutiae, but believe it is important to keep the latter in mind when making complaints since it affects the basis from which you are presenting your case.

@Azazel: I would recommend sending another email asking if your pledge contents can be changed to Soldier ($30) + BOGOF ogres/werewolves, since the issue with the $110 pledge level is that some of it has already been shipped, which might make swapping it out difficult.. the part that has shipped is identical to the $30 pledge level though, so maybe there's room for some reworking there. Good luck! I know you're always polite which is in your favour, but persistence is also needed.

I think this is something that might be a little lost on non-UK people, it is an extremely important part of our culture here, we might share a language but it's still a totally foreign country in terms of everything else.

If you want something in the US, you shout and scream and throw lawyers at people until you get what you want.
It tends to get the best results, I've heard stories of people in the US basically stacking a dozen coupons on top of each other, and then walking out of a store with a bunch of free stuff.. apparently the angle is, if the coupons add up to a negative amount, you go into the store and demand free money in addition to free product (as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, while others are waiting in line behind) and then settle for "only" getting the products for free when the staff say no. If you don't complain, you don't get the product for free.
There are guides to doing this online, I find the whole couponing culture that exists over there really interesting.

In the UK you ask them extremely nicely and briefly, and that tends to do the trick a little better. If not, rinse and repeat, but keep the discussion private, low-key and persistent... the US-style approach has the opposite effect to what you want.

Cultural difference, not going to change. Keeping this in mind with all correspondence with people from foreign countries is the best practical advice I can offer for getting what you want as quickly as possible.

How are they 10k in the red?

 scarletsquig wrote:
The word "technically" was used for a reason, I agree that it's more the spirit of the offer that counts than the minutiae.

I would say that the thrust of my comment was aimed at the word "wrong", which is different from "illegal".

PS: I forgot to mention it earlier, but you hurt my feelings around the third time you tried to characterize me as the "lol nipples" guy to trivialize my criticisms of the shoddy werewolf sculpts. Behavio(u)r like that leads people like me to believe you have some sort of financial understanding bias toward Mantic that blinds you to their many emerging flaws. Fortunately, we know better. Mostly.

Automatically appended on topic post:

I really hope Mantic isn't so busy worrying about 10,000 pounds of red ink that they end up costing themselves 100,000 pounds in unsellable stock and angry customers.

^ Sorry about that, I stopped thinking you were serious when you said you wanted a gimp mask on the thing!

Your posts need to stop making me laugh.

I find the pubic hair more unsettling than the nipples, personally. At least it can't be said that the sculpt isn't horrifying?

How are they 10k in the red?

They seem to have budgeted well for the tooling + fulfiling orders, but didn't leave themselves with any spare room to manoeuvre.

They had to resculpt the elf cavalry since they weren't happy with how it turned out, which delayed things and resulted in a third shipment being required. That alone was probably the most expensive thing.

It really is hard not to make jokes about a hypermasculine werewolf with coke bottle nipples who spends all his gym time blasting his upper body, but who isn't too busy to wax his chest or trim a little down there for the missus. Too bad he can't reach his back hair with the trimmer.

But seriously, the proportions are just terrible. Sure, the trolls are worse, but those werewolves look more like monsters from Evil Toons than The Howling. I wanted them to fit the mold of bipedal werewolves as portrayed in The Howling, Bad Moon, Werewolf the Series, She Wolf of London, Underworld, etc. etc., and they are just a total disappointment. Troma wolves at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

They had to resculpt the elf cavalry since they weren't happy with how it turned out, which delayed things and resulted in a third shipment being required. That alone was probably the most expensive thing.

They had to resculpt the elf cavalry since they weren't happy with how it turned out

weren't happy with how it turned out

How many people died when they saw the original sculpts? How many wish they had?

I can't imagine how bad those sculpts must have been.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
The word "technically" was used for a reason, I agree that it's more the spirit of the offer that counts than the minutiae.

I would say that the thrust of my comment was aimed at the word "wrong", which is different from "illegal".

PS: I forgot to mention it earlier, but you hurt my feelings around the third time you tried to characterize me as the "lol nipples" guy to trivialize my criticisms of the shoddy werewolf sculpts. Behavio(u)r like that leads people like me to believe you have some sort of financial understanding bias toward Mantic that blinds you to their many emerging flaws. Fortunately, we know better. Mostly.

I'm sorry.. but I have to say I think of you as 'Nipples guy' as well!

It's too late now.. the damage has been done..

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

They had to resculpt the elf cavalry since they weren't happy with how it turned out, which delayed things and resulted in a third shipment being required. That alone was probably the most expensive thing.

They had to resculpt the elf cavalry since they weren't happy with how it turned out

weren't happy with how it turned out

How many people died when they saw the original sculpts? How many wish they had?

I can't imagine how bad those sculpts must have been.

That's what I'm thinking - when things like the nuns get rubberstamped as acceptable - how bad were those elf sculpts that they were deemed un-fit for sale? And how bad could they be when they were just converting the existing metal elf calv to restic? (which I thought was a fairly simple process).

Mantic releases stuff they shouldn't all the time. I understand the impetus behind it - but in the long-run I think it has done them more harm than good. Just like I think overall now the KoW kickstarter has added to the "Mantic releases uneven, gak-y models" reputation rather than diminish it. I know in the future, when/if I get excited by the prospects of some upcoming Mantic release I'll certainly temper my enthusiasm and walk away (at least until the sculpts start coming in).

 scarletsquig wrote:
The word "technically" was used for a reason, I agree that it's more the spirit of the offer that counts than the minutiae, but believe it is important to keep the latter in mind when making complaints since it affects the basis from which you are presenting your case.
....
In the UK you ask them extremely nicely and briefly, and that tends to do the trick a little better. If not, rinse and repeat, but keep the discussion private, low-key and persistent...

In the original KS, it talks about "units of ogres". Elsewhere, it indeed specifies "units of three". BOGOF talks about units of three @$25. But then again. what constitutes a "unit of ogres" has changed in the year since we gave them money. If they want to change what that means in terms of dollar value, then they should do it across the board. Essentially, I feel that my money would have potentially been better spent at retail at this stage. Stuff from my correspondence with Stewart that I've fed back to the forum have been relevant information, rather than "private" stuff - ie the troll concepts we thought were being used being discarded in the end, DZ Orcs being reposed, etc.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Oh I see.
Well, the $110 level never stated that it contained any BOGOFs at any point, so while it's an annoying fringe case, it is accurate to the letter of the terms of sale.
All of the basic pledge levels offered less value than BOGOF, not just Soldier.

Champion, ($100 level) offers even less discount off RRP if you compare it to the prices in the Mantic store, the basic pledges were all designed to provide a small discount, the idea was that the stretch goal freebies were the things providing the massive value.

That said, if it's just a matter of throwing in 3 ogres, that should be easy to sort out.. sorry you couldn't get it sorted, scipio, I think the issue here is Mantic being £10k in the red with the KoW KS at this point already and they don't really have much room to budge on stuff where they're not technically doing anything wrong.

Oh, I'm not talking about BOGOF at all in this case.

I guess it's a matter of perspective if $100+ are considered "small" pledges. I would have thought $100+ was quite respectable. (All up, my wife and I are in KoW for about $500 - probably not considered "small", I'd hope.) The thing was, at the time this was the best way to get Ogres. I'm also not griping about them being compared to BOGOF, but against the new retail value. Ultimately, I doubt a few dozen restic figures will do a lot of damage compared to alienating the people that supported them by giving them money a year in advance. Particularly with them halving in price at retail and being given out in greater BOGOF numbers. In the end, I can't control what they do. I can give them feedback on what I think, and if I'm not happy, I simply won't buy nearly as much of their product or support their Kickstarters any further due to an erosion of trust and goodwill.

You see, despite being a critical, complaining bastard on here, I also buy stuff. I don't just read these threads to gak on Mantic nor do I deliberately troll. I really do want them to be a successful company and grow their product with high quality product and good customer service. In order to support them, I've spent well over $1.5k on Mantic stuff in the last year and a bit (mostly via KS, but also a decent chunk at retail - Morgoth's Revenge, 2x Fate of the Forgestar, each of the 3 DKH, Pandora, 8x FF Iron Ancestors, 2x Corp army boxes, Wraiths and a small pile of characters in metal blisters). You know, not the world's largest Mantic collection, but not too shabby either. So I'm not just some prick whining about the Kickstarter - I'm a real retail customer as well. And really, goodwill towards Mantic has fuelled a lot of those purchases, since I haven't had much time to do anything with them due to getting ready to move/moving/unpacking. That's what they need to balance against a few grams of restic.

in fact...

Pictured: Proof of what customer goodwill means from a consumer. (some blisters missing, as they're in a moving box somewhere). Just so you know I'm not full of gak when I talk about actually buying their stuff at retail.
The little grey baggies are the 8x Iron Ancestors, which I deboxed for storage.

Goodwill also fuels the KS stuff - but there you could potentially argue that it includes the "free loot mentality", so I've kept it out of the pic.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Look at at it this way - with the Ogres dropping in price you're basically only 'short' about $15-17,50 in minis when the whole thing is put in the worst possible light. (TBH I never really saw the value in that pledge to begin with but that's a different story)
I get your frustration though - doesn't feel quite 'right'. did you BOGO (or whatever you want to call it) the pledge up to over $175? If you didn't I can see how this really is a significant part of total value you pledged for.
Maybe you could get them to let you switch the $110 veteran for $42,50 Soldier+counters (which you should have already received) and 67,50 BOGOF credit? at least that way you'd get to pick your own stuff and it never really would have contained more value than that anyway so that would have you even if I'm not mistaken?

The thing is, it just feels wrong. Kind of like a metaphorical slap in the face.

Let me explain. We funded them for a lot more than the $5k being asked. and we did it a year ago. It feels like now they have come back with
"Hey guys, thanks so much for supporting us. In order to be competitive, we're going to be offering a much better deal on these models that you paid us for a year ago to new retail customers than we did to you. To make up for it, we've got a sweet new army deal. What's that? BOGOF not happy? OK, how's this? If you paid extra for BOGOF, we'll give you a bit of a sweetener since you complained ([i]if you opt-in!). You guys who pledged for the defacto Ogre army? Sorry, you guys don't get anything extra - units of 3, as this is what we planned during the Kickstarter. Cheers, all!"[/i]

Now I'm sure that's not their intent, but it's certainly how it feels. Like I did right by them to fund them a year upfront for the Ogres and in return, they're rewarding everyone else. And it's not endearing me to send them more Kickstarter money.


I'm going to email Stewart in an hour or so, with polite but honest feedback and a few chunks of what we're written and discussed here today. Maybe I'll throw in that picture as well, now that I've taken it. The trolls I was so excited by are worthless to me. The monstrous cat cavalry I was so excited by are worthless to me. The nuns.. etcetera. I'm not going to ask/beg him for more ogres either. I'm simply going to communicate a lot of what I have in today's posts, and express my disappointment. If they want me to pay a year in advance for miniatures, and then offer a better deal later, then quid pro quo. If they want to make me happy or lose my goodwill as a customer, it's ultimately going to be their choice of actions. And yeah, I'd like to see them offer a gesture to all "soldiers", not just me. If they're doubling the retail box and offering a huge discount army deal, I doubt it will be hurting them really badly...


Somewhat separate from my Ogre bitching, this list of unseen sculpts isn't helping with the trust or goodwill issues either, especially since we know some/many of them must exist by now in an acceptable green/sprue form. (List cribbed from Fenriswulf).
Elohi
Paladin knights
Sisterhoood lancers
gargoyles
Immortal Guard
Obsidian Golems (we have decent pics of the greens on these)
Elf Palace guard
Stormwind calvary
Fleabag Riders
Twilight Dark knights
Berosos
Herneas
Kernow
Grokagamok
Atlak Nakh
Mikayel
Lord Malak
Pantehr Chariot
Druid hero
Air Elemental hero
Goblin hero set
Abyssal Dwarf fire team

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Azazel, if you email Stew he will make sure that you get 9 ogres for $25 instead of 6.

I did that a while back, and haven't heard back yet.

I hope it happens though.

Initially I was in for BOGO on Ogres, Golems, Werewolves and Gargoyles.

Then I saw the Golem and Werewolf sculpts, and changed my mind.

Eventually, I ended up requesting all Ogres.

And then the retail prices were announced, so, yeah...

We'll see what happens...

 scarletsquig wrote:

If you want something in the US, you shout and scream and throw lawyers at people until you get what you want.
It tends to get the best results, I've heard stories of people in the US basically stacking a dozen coupons on top of each other, and then walking out of a store with a bunch of free stuff.. apparently the angle is, if the coupons add up to a negative amount, you go into the store and demand free money in addition to free product (as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, while others are waiting in line behind) and then settle for "only" getting the products for free when the staff say no. If you don't complain, you don't get the product for free.
There are guides to doing this online, I find the whole couponing culture that exists over there really interesting.

I've never witnessed what you've described, ever, in my entire life. And I have seen the couponing shows, but everyone in the episodes I've seen has been very nice and polite.

But I'm also from an area that prides itself on it's hospitality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I betcha they don't want to show the rest of the models because they are even worse than the Trolls.

 judgedoug wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

If you want something in the US, you shout and scream and throw lawyers at people until you get what you want.
It tends to get the best results, I've heard stories of people in the US basically stacking a dozen coupons on top of each other, and then walking out of a store with a bunch of free stuff.. apparently the angle is, if the coupons add up to a negative amount, you go into the store and demand free money in addition to free product (as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, while others are waiting in line behind) and then settle for "only" getting the products for free when the staff say no. If you don't complain, you don't get the product for free.
There are guides to doing this online, I find the whole couponing culture that exists over there really interesting.

I've never witnessed what you've described, ever, in my entire life. And I have seen the couponing shows, but everyone in the episodes I've seen has been very nice and polite.

But I'm also from an area that prides itself on it's hospitality.

Sounds like typical America Bashing, sadly.

From the Mantic forum in regards to the $125 Ogre deal -

The Same applies to the 'Ogre Army Deal', so if you pledge for that at $125 you now get:

27 x Ogres with Melee Weapons (your choice of Hand weapons & Shields or Two-Handed Weapons) - previously you only got 18

18 x Ores with Missile Weapons (your choice of Crossbows or Blunderbusses) - previously you only got 12

1 x Free Ogre Hero

2 x Free Ogre Command Sets

As Deoq said you have to email Stewart on:

stewart.gibbs@manticgames.com

telling him you want the increased number of figures rather than the lesser number of figures (seems strange but it is what Mantic has come up with, I would have thought it would have been simpler to just increase everybody's order).

Hope this helps.

Just calculated it up in comparison to the BOGOF deal for the Ogres. It's now worth $157 in value if you use the Kickstarter BOGOF prices. Good if you're looking to get a bunch of Ogres. Not sure if I will end up choosing this as I will already be receiving an Ogre hero for my $225 pledge, and I don't really want a repeat command pack. But it's a nice choice for those who want it.

They need to communicate this kind of information through the kickstarter, not to individuals.

I am thinking of taking the following;
1 x Kings and Legends Book, 1 x Basilean Legacy Book
1 x Ba'su'su the Vile, 1 x Abyssal Dwarf Fire team, 1 x Ogre Command Pack, 54 x Ogre Warriors.

That will take me to $5 over my original pledge, but kit me out with a bunch of miniatures to use.

 Fenriswulf wrote:


Just calculated it up in comparison to the BOGOF deal for the Ogres. It's now worth $157 in value if you use the Kickstarter BOGOF prices. Good if you're looking to get a bunch of Ogres. Not sure if I will end up choosing this as I will already be receiving an Ogre hero for my $225 pledge, and I don't really want a repeat command pack. But it's a nice choice for those who want it.

They need to communicate this kind of information through the kickstarter, not to individuals.

I am thinking of taking the following;
1 x Kings and Legends Book, 1 x Basilean Legacy Book
1 x Ba'su'su the Vile, 1 x Abyssal Dwarf Fire team, 1 x Ogre Command Pack, 54 x Ogre Warriors.

That will take me to $5 over my original pledge, but kit me out with a bunch of miniatures to use.

One can only assume they are not doing that so as to avoid all backers who picked Ogres taking them up on their offer to increase the BOGO to 9 figures/unit. There really isn't any other logical reason to not communicate it as a project update. If they are 10k in the hole due to this KS as has been suggested in this thread, that would support this theory.

The shame of it is, each "austerity measure" they take on the Kickstarter will probably lose them more than $10,000 in future sales. They are killing their entire brand to save pennies.

 Alpharius wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

I've never witnessed what you've described, ever, in my entire life. And I have seen the couponing shows, but everyone in the episodes I've seen has been very nice and polite.
But I'm also from an area that prides itself on it's hospitality.

Sounds like typical America Bashing, sadly.

I've not been to the US myself, but people I've spoken to IRL often talk about how very friendly and accommodating the vast majority of the people they met and encountered there have been.
I imagine the perspective would be taken from seeing stuff on TV and then applying it to everyone in a nation. Kind of like how all people in the UK are like Gordon Ramsey's performances on Hell's Kitchen and we Aussies are all like Steve Irwin..

I believe you've mentioned several times previously that you were going to break out some tinnies and endulge in a spot of wife-beating Azazelx?

It's more fun when she beats me.

So to speak.

We actually have a nice collection of Nerf-guns for marital warfare.

From the Deadzone comments:

mantic games wrote:@ Paul Thomas - sorry not everything has been shown. Tomorrow will will announce and let the KoW deadline slip a bit into next week (afterall the DZ one cannot move!). We got the painted Ogres today, and more heroes (the Goblin wizard is fantastic!) and these are being photo'ed tomorrow and put up. We will get more out asap too. Sorry again.

It's good to see what an up and coming company can achieve when they finally ask their parents to help them meet barely miss deadlines.


If only Rocky would get here with that van full of models and beer. It's going to be an all-nighter.

And they posted that in the deadzone comments? classy.

Only thing I actually want from the "extras" was the undead werewolves and the vampire chick. Any of this other stuff pulls up in the driveway, you guys can get dibs and trade me for it if you want. Not sure of what is really going to show up at this point, either. When it gets here, it really hope it comes out better then is expected.

 agnosto wrote:
And they posted that in the deadzone comments? classy.

They had Ronnie doing a Q&A session in the Deadzone comments last night - presumably someone asked him about the missing KOW previews.