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I too find the idea of the wagon to be dumb and lazy. I wouldn't even call it an alternative build as much as assembling the pieces backwards. You can do that with any kit without being sanctioned by the powers that be to.

I'd never participate in a Mantic kickstarter and I'm dumbfounded how many people are willing to buy their models sight unseen on the basis of concept art that Mantic 9 times out of 10 fails to realize as decent sculpts. Heck, sometimes they don't even stick to the artwork they pitch their products off! It's crazy!

Polonius wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Why are you even in this thread?

The same reason people white knight in GW threads. Consciously it's about "telling the truth" and "fighting against groupthink." Really it's about being the center of attention.

nkelsch wrote:
Oh I learned my lesson the hard way that Mantic has a 'bait and switch' model with how they use Remy's time on sculpting and that they cannot be trusted in regards to concept art. At least now I can see the models are terrible before I choose to buy them at retail or not, hence what this thread is all about.

Well, good job for turning this thread into your private venting booth.

To be fair to nkelsch, some of the KoW 'risks', such as dumping the concept art we funded and changing the entire range's scale/style unannounced, were unthinkable. Just like you wouldn't consider "150 models but no bases--we never said bases were included!" to be a fathomable risk. It's almost an outside context problem for a minis ks.

 -DE- wrote:

I'd never participate in a Mantic kickstarter and I'm dumbfounded how many people are willing to buy their models sight unseen on the basis of concept art that Mantic 9 times out of 10 fails to realize as decent sculpts. Heck, sometimes they don't even stick to the artwork they pitch their products off! It's crazy!

I cant' speak for anybody else, but I want alternative miniatures enough to back these kickstarters. It shows that the there is a market for more minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
To be fair to nkelsch, some of the KoW 'risks', such as dumping the concept art we funded and changing the entire range's scale/style unannounced, were unthinkable. Just like you wouldn't consider "150 models but no bases--we never said bases were included!" to be a fathomable risk. It's almost an outside context problem for a minis ks.

Wait, you're saying that changing artistic direction is "unthinkable?" When talking about a glorified cocktail napkin sketch?

Polonius you are making a mess of the quotes! I never said that!

On another note all types of critique are useful... I may disagree with them but all have a place.

At the end of the day I really want Mantic and other companies to succeed but every single one of us is a bit selfish because we have a crystal clear idea of the style of minis we want to see them doing..

Me? I want them to produce high quality miniatures but they are clearly moving to something else... phrases like " not aiming for golden deamons" and the kind of stuff they are releasing, does not go well with what I considered to be a very promising product.

 NAVARRO wrote:


Me? I want them to produce high quality miniatures but they are clearly moving to something else... phrases like " not aiming for golden deamons" and the kind of stuff they are releasing, does not go well with what I considered to be a very promising product.

Mantic has always been uneven, and when they promised delivery of a dozens of new units all at once, we all should have been a bit more realistic. I think that between the short development time since the kickstarter and the lack of salaried scupltors, they just couldn't get the top talent, and didn't have the time to redo stuff.

I'm worried about Mantic turning into little more than 3d chits.

 Polonius wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:


Me? I want them to produce high quality miniatures but they are clearly moving to something else... phrases like " not aiming for golden deamons" and the kind of stuff they are releasing, does not go well with what I considered to be a very promising product.

Mantic has always been uneven, and when they promised delivery of a dozens of new units all at once, we all should have been a bit more realistic. I think that between the short development time since the kickstarter and the lack of salaried scupltors, they just couldn't get the top talent, and didn't have the time to redo stuff.

I'm worried about Mantic turning into little more than 3d chits.

To be blunt about this I don't understand the rush to release SO much product in such a tight time frame... To many KS'rs maybe? They never really had the time to stop and mature the sculpting before releasing the minis.

I'm worried with that too... 3d can be a wonderful tool in the right capable hands, or in most cases so far, the easiest way to kill your brand.

 Polonius wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
To be fair to nkelsch, some of the KoW 'risks', such as dumping the concept art we funded and changing the entire range's scale/style unannounced, were unthinkable. Just like you wouldn't consider "150 models but no bases--we never said bases were included!" to be a fathomable risk. It's almost an outside context problem for a minis ks.

Wait, you're saying that changing artistic direction is "unthinkable?" When talking about a glorified cocktail napkin sketch?

Look at the trolls. People paid a lot of money based on two sketches that Mantic admitted ditching in favor of some design backers never saw.

scarletsquig wrote:
The basic description for them describes them quite well:

Orcs are among the vilest of all creatures; evil beings created for war.
They delight in destruction, all their essence is bent towards violence, mind and body. They despise beauty and goodness, finding their presence painful, and do all they can to bring what is right in the world to ash.
It is said that if they ever achieve this aim, they will then fight among themselves in the ruins of the realms of better races, unheeding and uncaring, hatred driving them on to ultimate self-destruction.

Basically, nihilism incarnate.

Ugh. One dimensional background is one dimensional. The excerpt you posted wasn't awful, but I think the general idea is pretty implausible and the "I'm only listening to you because I can't beat you in a duel" cliche is pretty tired as well. I have no idea how to make an overused idea like the orc interesting again. I'd probably go with the 1970s D&D approach where they are just underground dwelling iron age tribal creatures who occasionally get banded together into larger hordes and rise up from the depths to raid the surface. They'd have their own language, gods, simple art, a small selection of pictographs/runes that didn't quite make up a writing system and a typical raider attitude of not seeing their victims as having any person-hood worth respecting. And if some ancient god made them to use as a weapon, even if that god was no longer around, I'd rather it be trapped than killed, so you could have orcs be motivated by some sort of eschatology where their master will one day return.

scarletsquig wrote:

There two units were not done by the same sculptor, were they?

Both sculpted by Remy. The men at arms were digitally scanned and heavily reworked by mantic's 3d guys though.

I really don't know what to think about that. Did they show any of the original sculpts before they were reworked?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Look at the trolls. People paid a lot of money based on two sketches that Mantic admitted ditching in favor of some design backers never saw.

I know hte story of the trolls. I just don't consider what they did "unthinkable." It's shown a lack of maturity on Mantics part that they didn't have more communication between the end of the KS and now, because a lot of the drama could have been avoided.

But... those sketches were just that: rough sketches. Anybody that paid a "lot of money" based on those sketches should have realized what they were doing.

I get that a lot of these scuplts are bad, or at least not popular (I rather like the trolls myself), so I see why people are upset. However, I think that a lot of the anger towards mantic, especially the effort to twist what happened in to fraud or some other malicious act by Mantic, is more a reaction to failed greed than anything else. Hear me out on this: near the end, people weren't bidding because they were long time Mantic fans or people excited by the product. It was seen as a huge windfall for gamers, a ton of models for cheap. And so we all pledged based on sketches and a wildly uneven track record. Now that we see what we get, we're all trying to paint ourselves as victims.

 Polonius wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Look at the trolls. People paid a lot of money based on two sketches that Mantic admitted ditching in favor of some design backers never saw.

I know hte story of the trolls. I just don't consider what they did "unthinkable." It's shown a lack of maturity on Mantics part that they didn't have more communication between the end of the KS and now, because a lot of the drama could have been avoided.

But... those sketches were just that: rough sketches. Anybody that paid a "lot of money" based on those sketches should have realized what they were doing.

I get that a lot of these scuplts are bad, or at least not popular (I rather like the trolls myself), so I see why people are upset. However, I think that a lot of the anger towards mantic, especially the effort to twist what happened in to fraud or some other malicious act by Mantic, is more a reaction to failed greed than anything else. Hear me out on this: near the end, people weren't bidding because they were long time Mantic fans or people excited by the product. It was seen as a huge windfall for gamers, a ton of models for cheap. And so we all pledged based on sketches and a wildly uneven track record. Now that we see what we get, we're all trying to paint ourselves as victims.

^ This. I rather like most if the sculpts and with the exception of a few of the kits they have been well received from what I can tell from the various forum's/social media sites I visit. It's just the vocal minority that likes to beat there cheast so they can be heard, over and over and over again.

nkelsch wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
So Mantic's fantasy orcs now explain the failures in their models with GW's 40k psychic resonance for fungus men fluff?

Where did anyone from Mantic say this? Or did some random person on a forum say it and you are using it as a basis to attack Mantic directly somehow?

A member of the bucket brigade said it... Same way they said the Ogres have no genitals hence the horrible knock kneed poses.

Okay, so Mantic didn't say it, so don't attribute it to them. If you're going to criticize or attack a company, don't do it by criticizing a random person's facetious interpretation.

nkelsch wrote:

"These bizarre contraptions consist of a wheeled platform crammed full with eager Morax at the front, pushed by two gores..."

There's Morax on a platform, and Gores push them directly forward. That model isn't a broken concept, it's a PERFECT EXECUTION of the concept. FFS.

The fight-wagon cannot function the way the model is designed and it is a terrible model. Fine as a chariot, lazy and stupid as a '2 models one kit' design. The 'fluff' describes and impossible piece of technology which would fishtail and crash the way it is currently built and be impossible to drive. If they had build a cart with steering and rear-animal pushing which actually function, they might be ok... but they lazily thought turning a chariot around was 'hey now we are like GW and make dual kits too!' The fight-wagon is an unreasonable, indefensible model. It looks fine as a chariot, it looks like a 5-year old assembled his model wrong as a backwards chariot as a fight-wagon.

While the Celestial Hurricanum may be a silly pointless contraption, it is at least a valid horse-drawn wagon which won't immediately crash and implode upon being pulled by horses. You can't steer a chariot with fixed wheels from behind, especially by dumb animals. It simply isn't possible with the way that device is designed. But if 'GW sucks too' is the bucket you need to carry mantic's water in, more power to you. Most people didn't pay GW based upon concept art and don't have to now consider a refund due to a terrible model. That is the difference between 'poor models' by GW and PP and mantic... People can choose not to buy PP and GW's flawed models opposed to already having been stuck funding them with poor execution.

Let me look at my Orc army.... let's see. I have a giant, which is a physical impossibility for a biped to be that large. I have a wyvern, who cannot physically lift it's own weight with the wings provided. I feel it is less far-fetched to have armored boars pushing a platform with Orcs on it. I suppose it's about as realistic as the Celestial Hurricanum, as that thing - well, no, you're wrong on that - as it actually would immediately crash and implode upon being pulled by horses, as it's so stupidly top heavy and absurd... unless there's also some Celestial Magic Shocks and Celestial KarlFranzium Suspension with some sweet Celestial Nuln All-Terrain Tires. Or maybe they only bring it out to fight on perfect asphalt pavements and only move it at 2 miles per hour. In a straight line. And there's like 20 guys on scaffolding holding it up.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say 'GW sucks too!!1!', as that would imply I thought the Fight Wagon sucked. Which I quite like it and am looking forward to putting it my army. I specifically brought up the Celestial Hurricanum because it's total, total gak and as impossible - if not more so - than the Fight Wagon. It's one of the many models from 7th/8th Empire releases that will never, ever go into my Empire army, which spans from 3rd on up (just as I have no horrible, horrible barefoot monkey Empire soldiers - the worst plastic figures ever made - as I much prefer the monopose leads and 5th/6th plastic multipose soldiers). The point was, if a model is designed poorly by a team of retards and it looks like gak, then I won't buy it. Celestial Hurricanum is one. Y'know what else is? Those fething Mantic trolls, which are a huge disappointment to me. But this is the third time I've said that to you but you seem to think I am some giant Mantic defender.

Now, It's easy to point to GW as examples because most people know the armies and designs - and if you bother to look, most of their warmachines and odd contraptions make even less sense (Doom Divers? Trollslayer Axe-thrower war engines? Eagle Chariots? Uhh... the entire Skaven army? The steam tank, which would collapse under it's own weight, or blow itself apart the first time it fired the cannon?!) Of course, this is probably all explained by the all-purpose Hand-Wavium magic of some sort (I can certainly understand that for my 10k+ points of Tomb Kings) But, I can certainly use other examples... well, hell, all of every Steampunk thing ever. Most of anything made for any Weird War 2 game. Do you want me to go on? Pretty much everything not rooted in actual history falls under your oddly-Mantic-specific physics criticism.. .and even then we could argue that it would be a "physical impossibility" for Blighton's Regiment of 1641 to have coats with blue dye because there was no blue dye where the regiment was raised, or something.

And, finally, people can also choose not to buy any of this stuff. You _do_ realize the vast majority of backers got all these releases for free, as stretch goals? And you do realize that currently Mantic is allowing every backer to pick and choose what they want - again - before sending the figs to them? All of these models are not available for purchase, they are being shown to the backers so they can choose which ones they want (from any _extra_ money they put in).

So, what was your Kings of War pledge? How much did you pledge _extra_ for these models?

Edit: there was no concept art for the Fight Wagon, btw.

Basically, Mantic probably need to slow the feth down with all the Kickstarters already and concentrate on bringing quality products to market, rather than fast products to market. Hopefully the negative feedback on the models that didn't match the concepts and/or turned out crappy will just be "growing pain"-type speedbumps as Mantic start to hopefully mature as a company and get some stronger Art Direction. Calling the troll concept art "glorified napkin" sketches is also disingenious at best. The concept art (armoured and unarmoured) was of high quality and they took in a lot of money based on the promise of them looking as shown.

On the new(ly shown) models:

* The Fight Wagon was an unexplained concept. It turned out a bit stupid. I'll just assemble mine as normal chariots. Problem solved.
* Orc Chariot is uninspiring but ultilitarian. Not an exciting model by any means but it does what it says on the tin. Not really a problem.
* Paladin cavalry look great. I'm surprised since so much of the other stuff has been so hit or miss.
* Men at Arms are still bad. I think there's also a bit too much "Remy did good work but others screwed it up"-type defence/canonisation of Remy. He may be their best sculptor, but he's clearly not infallible. Especially with Mantic's focus clearly being speed (and launching more Kickstarters) rather than hardlining on quality.

The fight wagon should just be built as a normal chariot, but with the carry "basket" area reversed. The idea being the boars go full tilt and crash into the enemy with the orks holding on. When they hit, they use the momentum to launch themselves into the enemies ranks, hacking and slashing as they go. That's how I would do it.

The Paladin's look good, but you'd need to check the arms to see if they have long arm syndrome. I also am thinking that the reins are all one piece instead of separate straps, so they'll need to be modded.

I like the goblin characters. A little too GW, but that's how it is. Well sculpted though. Not so hot on the Dark Elf ones.

Men at Arms are still bad... I was going to be in for around 150-200 and a bunch of other stuff, but now need to go for Ogres instead. Sad about that, as I wanted to use them to proxy an Empire army. Oh well. The Paladins might be ok in foot and mounted versions, but unless I really have the other figures as well, it doesn't make much sense to do so.

Hope we can see the gargoyles and the like with tonights update.

Well, you can always use Perry figures (or almost anything, really) as Men-At-Arms if the other Basilean stuff appeals.

I feel pretty bad for those that dislike the trolls: I happen to think they look pretty good, even with tiny legs. They remind me of Gwerrig (sp) from David Edding's "Elenium" series-a misshapen troll with tiny legs. Hmmm...fits it in my book. So I like them-I can, however see that they're not for everyone. Some of the MaA faces are hokey. Bodies are good. Paladins, ridden and on foot, are great. Horses are amazing. Ogres look 1000x better than GW ogres. Sisters arms suck, but hopefully can be chopped down. Cat-horse legs are bad. Elohi, from the partial builds we've been shown are also amazing. Fight wagon and chariot were the same kit, and the fight wagon was described exactly how it looks-how is anyone having an issue with this? Honestly, only stuff I dislike is as follows: werewolf nipples, cat-horse legs, sisters arms, couple MaA faces, and eh on the TK model.

Yeah I am looking at alternatives. Going to see if I can't get some of the Rackham Lion army pre-paints. Otherwise, a Wargames Factory Samurai army is also another possibility.

It's likely I will just focus on using the Ogres to make an Ogre army. I've got them now, might as well use them.

New pics:










Also, all the Basileans other than the Elohi are delayed until August, they don't have the time to get the casting done on them properly in time for the second shipment.

As someone who is going all-in on Basileans, I'm fine with that, would rather wait another couple of months than get bad casts.

I like most of those... the long arm syndrome is very apparent though :(

Oh boy...

I can't see many of those making people happy.

On to Deadzone!

(Fingers crossed!)

I like the cathorse riders more than I thought I would, and like the chariot less than I thought I would. Elohi are pretty good. Mawbeast riders are pretty good. Immortal guard are good aside from the shields. Harpies are great. Golems are great.

 Alpharius wrote:
Oh boy...

I can't see many of those making people happy.

On to Deadzone!

(Fingers crossed!)

I dunno - I think the Golem is pretty nice. And the angels seemed to have turned out ok.

Panther chariot is disappointing, there is nothing for the nuns to hold onto! I guess that's why they have those long arms - so they can reach the very low sides of their chariots. And oy - the face on that vampire!

Also - apparently the Basileans are delayed until shipment three which is in August.

I don't think they look too bad. A little weird, but can't beat it for the price. On the other hand, selling off my KoW will help pay for my Deadzone. It is a vicious cycle.

Dislike the Sisterhood and Abyssal Dwarfs but LOVE everything else especially the Golem and Angels, oh my lol!

Cathorses are starting to grow on me. I know my kids would probably like some, minus the riders though. Same with the mawbeasts.

I'm liking the looks of the golems. Will be getting some at retail since I missed the kickstarter.

Angel dudes look like they're packing a lot more detail than their cohorts though.

Why are clearly painted models being shown in black and white?

I have changed my mind on that golem. It may end up in my Dungeon Bestiary set.

Cathorse is bad, Angels have odd proportions which make them look like they have tiny heads. Everything else is 'ok', but people don't buy 'ok' models at retail... so unless your business model is to take KS money, make models for just the KS and then retire to Miami, These don't set up a strong model line for retail longevity.

The long arm syndrome is going to be a bit of a pain in the arse to fix, will have to snip off the forearm, trim it down, then reglue and smooth over the join.

Some of the necks also look too long, but with seperate heads, that's an easy fix. I see the nuns as a work project, in that they'll take an extra couple of hours of modelling time for me to be happy with them. That's fine, though, it's an easier fix than the M@A heads which will require replacement heads or some funky GS work.

I rather like the panthers, personally, don't see the issue with them. Chariot looks great, too.

Angels look great except for the paintjobs... gonna have proper flaming swords of doom on mine,not blue popsicles.

Gargoyles and Obsidian Golems turned out well, not quite sure what is going on with the fleabags and immortal guard though.

nkelsch wrote:
Why are clearly painted models being shown in black and white?

I have changed my mind on that golem. It may end up in my Dungeon Bestiary set.

Fleabag riders, Immortal guard and Golem are just sprayed.

I like the fleabag riders! Kinda cartoony, but there's a lot of motion in the poses. The Immortal Guard look as crappy as all the abyssal dwarves. Angels are okay, not great because I think something with big wings like that shouldn't rank up. Gargoyles, harpies and golems are all alright.

The cathorses are weird. On the one hand, proper cats would make pretty poor mounts I'd imagine, but on the other, there's something off about those models.

The Nuns are still giraffe necked and gorilla armed, sadly.

Mawbeasts riders look exactly how I thought they would. Heads of Immortal Guard will fit perfectly with original release but the shields look weird. Panthers will look much better black as well!