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There are lots of different types of plastic of which the stuff PP uses is one. Insisting on some special definition of plastic when the scale modeling community already just calls that "styrene" (which it is) is pointless.

If plastic cement works on it, it's likely styrene. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's not plastic. Miniature wargaming is a niche hobby and I don't see why we should insist on specific terms for materials when the larger world already has them available for our use.

It's like insisting that because miniature companies use tin in their metal miniatures a metal miniature that isn't tin somehow doesn't count as metal.

 Construct wrote:

The issues with Mantic's sculpts arise not from a failure to conform exactly to the concept art but rather from either a failure to conform to it at all – or, at least, to the art shown to backers – or an unwillingness to demand that flaws in sculpting be corrected before acceptance – and even the first of those is not necessarily fatal.

I have to agree with this. Also I keep looking for something better or at least some kind of evolution on the overall quality and its just not here... add the fact that the restic material is also pants and you have poor sculpts in poor material.
By now mantic would have time, experience and money to try to do something much better but I get the feeling they are producing exactly what they want.

 frozenwastes wrote:
There are lots of different types of plastic of which the stuff PP uses is one. Insisting on some special definition of plastic when the scale modeling community already just calls that "styrene" (which it is) is pointless.

If plastic cement works on it, it's likely styrene. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's not plastic. Miniature wargaming is a niche hobby and I don't see why we should insist on specific terms for materials when the larger world already has them available for our use.

It's like insisting that because miniature companies use tin in their metal miniatures a metal miniature that isn't tin somehow doesn't count as metal.

I agree with you to a point. Technically it's all plastic. However, when I (and most gamers, and even scale modelers) hear "Plastic model" we think of a model kit made of styrene or similar hard plastic that can be assembled with a solvent glue. We also expect a higher degree of uniformity as these kind of kits are injection cast in metal molds. It's not perfectly accurate, but in my experience it's accepted parlance.

Companies owe it to their customers -when dealing with a material that is not the above- to not just call something "plastic", but to give some indication that it is a different material that cannot be assembled with "plastic" glues. Sprueless plastic, Restic, Troll-cast, Plasti-Resin, Bones, etc. I don't care what you call it, just let me know it's going to be different. If I buy a kit simply called "Plastic" and Plastic-Weld solvent won't work on it I'm going to be a bit miffed.

Of course, it'd be even better if companies would be a bit more specific and simply label their products a bit more accurately with terms like "Polystyrene", "PVC vinyl", "Polyester Resin", etc...

 frozenwastes wrote:
There are lots of different types of plastic of which the stuff PP uses is one. Insisting on some special definition of plastic when the scale modeling community already just calls that "styrene" (which it is) is pointless.
If plastic cement works on it, it's likely styrene. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's not plastic. Miniature wargaming is a niche hobby and I don't see why we should insist on specific terms for materials when the larger world already has them available for our use.
It's like insisting that because miniature companies use tin in their metal miniatures a metal miniature that isn't tin somehow doesn't count as metal.

I typed something up before, but obviously forgot to post before I closed that window. The reason to use the term "Restic" is simply precisely because it's become an understandable piece of Jargon within our niche hobby that refers to a specific material, which differentiates it from other forms of resin and plastic.

You guys all know I really like the Mantic company: I've been quite vocal in the matter. But this does feel underhanded, like they're trying to sneak something past. If they said "the models are in our resin-plastic formula"...no complaints. If they call it "plastic", which we all expect to be models like the dwarves, undead and Elven basic models...we're going to feel lied to. Honesty is fine, even if we prefer plastic. Lying to us is never okay. And that goes for all companies.

Well, when I looked last night the Paladins were labelled as resin plastic on their store...

Ok, then perhaps they had a mistype, if it's labelled correctly elsewhere. Nothing to see, it's a mistake not a lie. Carry on enjoying the product.

 NAVARRO wrote:

By now mantic would have time, experience and money to try to do something much better.

I think they are... Their recent announcement for Deadzone is that they've made enough in the kickstarter that they're replacing a good amount of restic sculpts for the main armies with plastic figures.

 Compel wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

By now mantic would have time, experience and money to try to do something much better.

I think they are... Their recent announcement for Deadzone is that they've made enough in the kickstarter that they're replacing a good amount of restic sculpts for the main armies with plastic figures.

Yeah, I read that too. Most figs are still Restic, but it looks like the 5 sets that will likely be most popular as units in Warpath are getting the plastic treatment.
"Enforcers, Enforcer Peacekeepers, Cyphers, Forge Guard and Plague Zombies."
This is a good thing in my book. I can deal with Restic, but I'll take Plastic over Restic any day. I'm most excited about the Forge Guard. They'll fit nicely into my squat army as Exo Armor. The old Exo Armor is nostalgic, but the Forge Guard actually LOOK like they're wearing Exo Armor.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
You guys all know I really like the Mantic company: I've been quite vocal in the matter. But this does feel underhanded, like they're trying to sneak something past. If they said "the models are in our resin-plastic formula"...no complaints. If they call it "plastic", which we all expect to be models like the dwarves, undead and Elven basic models...we're going to feel lied to. Honesty is fine, even if we prefer plastic. Lying to us is never okay. And that goes for all companies.

Not everyone expects that. Anyone who plays warmachine knows plastic can range from hard plastic to the kind of restic PP and Mantic use. And they still market it as plastic

Mantic's recent terminology has been to call restic plastic, and plastic sprues hard plastic.

It has been consistently like this ever since the KoW Kickstarter.

It's still a bit misleading in an industry where "plastic" has meant "works with plastic glue and everything" for more than a decade.

But I'm glad they are finally consistent. I remember when they tried the term "sprueless plastic" for restic, and I preferred that terminology.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Mantic's recent terminology has been to call restic plastic, and plastic sprues hard plastic.

It has been consistently like this ever since the KoW Kickstarter.

Count me under the list of people confused. When they were running the KS and I saw them talking about "plastic", I also assumed that they were following the standard terminology of referring to styrene plastic that works with "plastic glue" and not restic. If they're going to use both, they should refer to styrene as just "plastic" and add their choice of adjectives to PVC/restic/whatever variants that you use CYA glue on.

There actually is no standard terminology in TT industry.

Correct terminology would be duroplasts and thermoplasts, resin and plastic are to broad to be of any real use actually, cause there are kinds that have most of the properties of what you would associate with the other kind.

You are confusing the terminology of a chemist with the terminology of marketing. What something is called in one industry has little to do with what that something actually is, especially as far as what a fussily-precise chemistry student would call it.

Hint: If many of your customers say it's a problem, it's a problem. It doesn't matter how anal retentive you get with proper definitions.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You are confusing the terminology of a chemist with the terminology of marketing. What something is called in one industry has little to do with what that something actually is, especially as far as what a fussily-precise chemistry student would call it.

Hint: If many of your customers say it's a problem, it's a problem. It doesn't matter how anal retentive you get with proper definitions.

Correct.. I might not have been the most clear in my post but I was referring to the standard terminology used in the model building marketplace since at least the mid 1980's. Models labelled simply as plastic on the front of the box were ones you could use plastic glue on, regardless of what a chemist in a lab might think of that nomenclature in the grand scheme of his field. No one model making company (let alone a second tier company in the even smaller gaming hobby submarketplace) shouldn't muddy the water that has been clear for decades across multiple hobbies as its simply confusing to the end customer.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You are confusing the terminology of a chemist with the terminology of marketing. What something is called in one industry has little to do with what that something actually is, especially as far as what a fussily-precise chemistry student would call it.

Hint: If many of your customers say it's a problem, it's a problem. It doesn't matter how anal retentive you get with proper definitions.

Agreed!

Bottom line - Mantic would be better served by NOT referring to 'restic' as 'plastic', at least how it is viewed in this fine hobby of ours!

There's no reason to call the resin-plastic straight up plastic for any other reason than to mislead.

Are we done with the restic/plastic diversion?

Maybe?

But probably not until Mantic figures out just what they're going to call everything, or what to make everything.

I thought we were done two iterations ago, but peeps keep jumping in to score smart-points by pointing out how wrong the consumer is and how right their particular education is.

So any pics of the Dark/Elf Cavalry yet? I wonder if Winterdyne has a batch of each painted up that he's not allowed to show us yet?

While the masters went "straight to China" (without any photos being taken(!)... Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, or speak of confidence in their product..

Now you see, there's the difference with working with Mantic.

I'm not 'not allowed' to show anything. There's no NDA, no contract. It's just a polite personal request. Refreshing to not be treated like a potential criminal.

And yeah, there's stuff I've worked on and am working on that I'm not showing yet.

Basilean army list has been posted up for free download:

http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/basilean-web-list-v003.pdf

Pretty awesome of Mantic, even though they're releasing a supplement book with the new army list in, they're still releasing the rules for it online (albeit without the background text, history, pics and other stuff that the book contains).

I feel like it's the most awesome thing the company does, free rules and army lists online as living documents.

So much better than paying £45 for rulebook and £30 for army book! By the time you're done just buying the rules from GW, you could instead have free rules and a whole army of minis from Mantic.

Worth keeping in mind when warhammer 9th edition comes out next year.

Well.. they are all sorts of Spanish Inquisition.. lol

I think they are gonna be a royal pain to fight against..

winterdyne wrote:
Now you see, there's the difference with working with Mantic.
I'm not 'not allowed' to show anything. There's no NDA, no contract. It's just a polite personal request. Refreshing to not be treated like a potential criminal.
And yeah, there's stuff I've worked on and am working on that I'm not showing yet.

I was inferring from the language you've used in the past, when showing photos. Though obviously, it confirms that the "we have no photos of these for you to see, but please buy them" line is horse-puckey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Basilean army list has been posted up for free download:
I feel like it's the most awesome thing the company does, free rules and army lists online as living documents.
So much better than paying £45 for rulebook and £30 for army book! By the time you're done just buying the rules from GW, you could instead have free rules and a whole army of minis from Mantic.
Worth keeping in mind when warhammer 9th edition comes out next year.

I'll certainly give them credit for that. In fact I've somewhat started buying an Elven army for KoW ...out of GW models

 Azazelx wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Basilean army list has been posted up for free download:
I feel like it's the most awesome thing the company does, free rules and army lists online as living documents.
So much better than paying £45 for rulebook and £30 for army book! By the time you're done just buying the rules from GW, you could instead have free rules and a whole army of minis from Mantic.
Worth keeping in mind when warhammer 9th edition comes out next year.

I'll certainly give them credit for that. In fact I've somewhat started buying an Elven army for KoW ...out of GW models

The interesting thing is that I've found that I am building more armies (and painting them!) since I switched to Kings of War. Mantic's Orcs (my fav in the world), Mantic Goblins, my giant Helsvakt RBG KS combined with my Tarvax and Sronax from Mierce into a giant army, and now I'm planning on Gamezone Dark Elves with Mierce Gorgonares for a Twilight Kin army. Not to mention I have about a billion points of Mantic Elves and Dwarves ready to be painted, and this is in ADDITION to my WHFB Tomb Kings, High Elves, and Empire armies (all I've been collecting for 10+ years and so are quite large)

Some concept art for the new Abyssal army, one of the next armies to be released for KoW (army list is included in the Basilean legacy book):

I really like everything about that, EXCEPT for the damn tiny legs. Again.

~Eric

GODDAMMIT MANTIC STOP WITH THE STUMPY LEGS