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And I would persoanally say WGF is the quality leader in wargaming, although GW is pretty close.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are they better than Bandai?.

No, they are absolutely and definitively not, and anyone attempting to argue otherwise needs to stop drowning in koolaid - and GW stopped being the best in the wargames market a little while ago. That's what happens when you stop spending on innovation, and pretend you have no competition.

Hit and miss there... Things like the Glotkin, blightkings are wicked and on the top of their game but you can find plenty of crappy models too. Hit and miss.

Koolaid? wrong door mate, 100% wrong door there man.

Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game, but they are fine with people using whatever models they like. I can run an army for all but two of the mantic lists currently available from my various fantasy collections -
Orcs - WFB Orcs
Goblins - WFB Goblins
Ogres - Trollbloods Trolls and LOTR Orcs (as Red Goblins)
Kingdoms of Men - Historicals and LOTR Rohan (for two different themed lists)
Undead - Mantic core troops, GW characters and elite units (the plastic black knights are amazing)
Elves - LOTR Elves
Dwarves - WFB Dwarves

The unit basing and easygoing nature of Mantic with regard to other manufacturers means I can use whatever I like from my collections for my games, which is pretty sweet.

Stuff like the Golem just pisses me off because it's poor advertising for a game I really want to see take off, and I don't believe many people will buy the miniature at that price for that quality. Anyone remember the waddling drakon riders? They eventually just dropped those minis entirely, because they probably sold poorly due to being awful miniatures. I know Mantic is a small, enthusiastic crew, but they need to get someone critical on board to help them avoid these mistakes. They CAN do consistently good stuff, look at the Dungeon Saga minis for examples of pretty decent standard stuff on the whole, but then they'll poop out some misproportioned crap like this Golem and pretend like it's great.

On "who is the best in Wargaming Plastics" the Perrys seem to lead the field, to be honest, in the sweetspot of price vs. quality. GW are definitely contenders though, just on the expensive side with aesthetic choices I don't agree with a lot of the time.

I agree that quite a few models are more misses than hits. The undead range does have more "hits" than other factions for me and I just like their abyssal dwarves as far as the Older ranges. One of my buddies was intrigued when I mentioned we can port our whfb into kow. Having unit sized basing without removing individuals really sparked a few ideas in his head for armies.

I also agree with the miniatures the Perrys put out, I picked up a box of mercenaries for conversions and the detail and options are amazing for the price

I must be the only guy on these forums who could take or leave the WotR Perry minis. They aren't bad. They just don't do anything for me. Ah well. I'll stick with my 6th edition style Warhammer Fantasy minis. That particular style has always been my favorite.

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,

As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.

I also find the Perry minis boring. I also wouldn't call them technically superior to GW at all. If someone thinks GW isn't innovative enough, I don't see how they could claim the Perry's are. They have modern Renedra quality but a 1990-era sprue sensibility.

Besides, I thought we were just discussing quality and not quality-per-dollar, which is an entirely different matter, and a much worse comparison for the golem.

Mantic Goblins are goddarn AMAZING. I LOVE them. Way, way better than the GW ones.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,

As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.

Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.


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 Sigvatr wrote:
Mantic Goblins are goddarn AMAZING. I LOVE them. Way, way better than the GW ones.

Do you mean the plastics? I have heard tons of complaints about their casting quality, and since they were supposed to be from the company that did the MaA, I believe all of them.

HoweverI love their design more than GW or Reaper/Pathfinder/Bones3 goblins. The only goblins I like more were the designs for that one kickstarter that Sort of fizzled out, the ones that look like aliens. Dammit, what was that company's name?

If someone wants to trade a couple sprues of Mantic gob is for a sprue of enforcers, I'd love to see for myself.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,

As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.

And me. The hard plastic Undead, and the Stormrage Veterans. And to a lesser extent, the Orcs.

Even so, they have had lots of misses since. I do think a good few of their models let them down, but I often get the impression that they keep running out of time/money and the sculpts/production minis turn up and they have to say "gak, that'll have to do"

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,

As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.

Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.

Agreed. However I actually like the men at arms. They're ugly, which is how I would view a medieval-equivalent people. My only issue with them is they're a bit too static.

When the first KoW KS started I rmembering really struggling to decide which army I liked more when it came time to choosing the reward. It cam down to either Orcs, Dwarfs or Undead, and in the end I started tossing coins. Sometimes I wonder that if the coins had come up Undead I'f I'd have an army of just werewolves by now.....

 NTRabbit wrote:
GWs technical quality really is middling at best, they are consistently made to look like happy meal toys compared to the things that Bandai can do, and the fidelity of detail, if not special tricks, that the hobby kit manufacturers achieve.

Anyone claiming GW leads anything with their plastics is flat out kidding themselves, as they haven't changed a thing in over a decade, while the big players zoom off into space, and their small competitors have inexorably caught up.

Mantic's minis sure aren't Bandai techincal quality, but like Warlord and Wargames Factory they're technically almost on par with GW now - and like Bandai, they do it for a price that makes GW look ridiculous.

Seriously, go buy Frostgrave, get some small scale Bandai kits to play it with, and as well as having a much better game (it's hard not to be better than utter trash) with much better minis, the money you'll save from getting that instead of Age of Sigmor will make a nice deposit on a new car.

I'm waiting on my two copies of AoS to arrive right now.

I'm sorry that your apparent GW hate cant allow you to appreciate their new models. I dislike them as a company as well, but I also know that I'm a tiny drop in the bucket, and I'm also willing and able to purchase whichever kits I really want for my collection. I'm not a fan of Disney or Coka Cola either, but I'll still watch the new Star Wars and drink Coke occasionally.

GW"s minis are the best that there are in many ways in this industry/hobby. Dreamforge are close or equal, as both companies have utilised the advantages of this tier of HIPS in different ways and lead the rest, including Renedra and whichever random Chinese companies that Mantic use. DFG via WGF are like the next step forward of the GW of 10 years ago's (!) move into multipart plastics, while GW themselves have taken a side road tangent into maximising what you can do with push-fit and modular/twinned kits. WGF's other stuff like Malifaux is getting close, but not quite there yet. We'll see how KD:M turns out soon enough.

Bandai on the other hand, don't make miniatures. Though you could play a theme-park-themed game of 7TV etc with their little PVC characters, or a great looking game of Gundamtech Gears.

I just got my copy of Lion Rampant today, and I've already paid for/preordered my copy of Dragon Rampant. Frostgrave may or may not be something I add to my rules collection. Celtos and Wrath of Kings are both just sitting around here. AoS will probably get played precisely because it is so simple, though I'll be treating it like Munchkin in terms of taking it seriously or frequency. Mostly, though - I'll be playing SAGA - probably with fantasy figures to get started while I work on my Vikings and their little mates, and KoW using everything from AoS figures to Citadel to Mantic to Reaper to Shieldwolf to Rackham prepaints and Schleich animals. And everything in between.

I actually pledged to get a ton of werewolves. Then they released pictures of the final sculpts and I sent a desperate email to Stewart begging him to switch my order to Men at Arms...

Oh man, that's harsh Bob.

KOW KS1 and stuff like this Golem is why I didn't pledge on KOW2. They look to have done a little better this time, but...

 Da Boss wrote:
Oh man, that's harsh Bob.

KOW KS1 and stuff like this Golem is why I didn't pledge on KOW2. They look to have done a little better this time, but...

Yeah, those are the reasons I only pledged $1 for access to the pledge manager. I even emailed Stewart and asked if we would get to see finished sculpts before we had to finalize our PM orders. He (or someone at Mantic) assured me that I would have a chance to see them.

Then he told Sully he would kill him last.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Where is the thread for the Bandai miniatures game?

It is a shame that the Greater Obsidian Golem looks so poor as I love his smaller brethren from the original KOW Kickstarter. That said the Abyssal Dwarf Mage is great, anybody know who did the sculpt?

I'll be using the Bones one. It's got the advantage of being totally free, since I have one sitting here already. If I ever want a far superior model, I'l use this.


Which still has "leg day" syndrome, but is a far better take on the same thing that the GOG is. Looks like the GOG takes some direct inspiration from it, actually.

Hm, I don't mind the GOG, except that it looks like a generic mineral thing, but definitely not obsidian. I played Hordes long enough to get used to tiny legs. And the price is pretty obnoxious, of course.



I find it rather amusing that Mantic started off as a peddler of cheap alternative miniatures to use with GW rules and now people are picking up Mantic's rules, but shopping around for better miniatures.

The Golem looks like a police sketch of the troll above provided by someone with a sever concussion.

The stupidest thing, to me at least, is that most of Mantics miniature failures seem, from the outside, to be based on laziness more than cost savings.
I literally can't think of another legitimate miniature company that wouldn't send the render/greens of the golem back to the sculptor and say, "haha, good one".

If the tiny leg thing had been adopted as a legitimate style choice then it could actually work. Rackham did that, but they did it with gorgeous sculpts where it felt like it was part of a coherent design.

Blargh. Frustrating as a gamer.

I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I actually pledged to get a ton of werewolves. Then they released pictures of the final sculpts and I sent a desperate email to Stewart begging him to switch my order to Men at Arms...

Holy feth you got screwed twice there.


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GW make technically great models. You can argue that they are over priced, unoriginal and poorly designed and in many cases I would agree but they are well cast and look like the model they were intending it too look like.

Personally my favorite HIPS stuff at the moment is probably coming from Perry.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hm, I don't mind the GOG, except that it looks like a generic mineral thing, but definitely not obsidian. I played Hordes long enough to get used to tiny legs. And the price is pretty obnoxious, of course.
I find it rather amusing that Mantic started off as a peddler of cheap alternative miniatures to use with GW rules and now people are picking up Mantic's rules, but shopping around for better miniatures.

To be fair, I've always done that, so me talking about it isn't any sign of change. People like Ellif and his club crew in Chicago, Judge Doug, etc have always used anything they like as well so it's not new. And I can see people still playing 8th not having any hesitation with grabbing Mantic's undead, etc. It might just go a bit more in both directions now, since there seems to be a lot of people who won't play WHFB if it's no longer officially in print (which boggles my mind, but look at the forum name change here!)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.

I understand what you're saying, but would you mind explaining why you need it to be a self-contained package? I'm asking in a non-sarcastic/confrontational way. I mean, an elf is an elf is a dwarf is a dwarf. The "closed IP" mideset in wargaming is really very much a GW invention, and not a particularly useful one at that. My personal "version" of Fantasy gaming is the Kings of War rules set in a bastardised version of Warhammer's Old World - using a mix of older (3e) and newer fluff, that happens to have a few more human and nonhuman Kingdoms shoehorned in. Which is why Gondor can fight Ogres or Mythological Rome can fight Blood Elves.

If you were playing WW2 games, would you not be willing to use RL history as your "fluff" and use 28mm figures from Artizan and Warlord? Or 15mm models by Batlefront and PSC? While using whichever ruleset you liked on the day

 Azazelx wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Where is the thread for the Bandai miniatures game?

It is a shame that the Greater Obsidian Golem looks so poor as I love his smaller brethren from the original KOW Kickstarter. That said the Abyssal Dwarf Mage is great, anybody know who did the sculpt?

I'll be using the Bones one. It's got the advantage of being totally free, since I have one sitting here already. If I ever want a far superior model, I'l use this.


Which still has "leg day" syndrome, but is a far better take on the same thing that the GOG is. Looks like the GOG takes some direct inspiration from it, actually.

The mountain king is like five times the size.

So more of an allied Giant, then? Is it metal or resin/restic?

Still I just did a google search and (clearly) know sweet FA about WMH. There's a bunch of large Trollbloods that have rocks growing/sticking(?) out of their body that would be appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.

I kinda get the feeling that this may be the issue for a couple of people here. Liking Mantic as a company so much that they've become invested in their models, rather than being objective. I bought the 2-player battle box several years ago which was advertised as having the rules in it, etc. Came with undead which are decent, and the dwarves, which I almost finished assembling 10 of before deciding that they were gak. Seriously, they've got worse/softer detail than the Warhammer Fantasy Regiments Dwarves from 87/88. The rulebook was a folded pamphlet, and an absolute joke, especially as it was described in a way to make buyers think they'd get some kind of book. Despite the incredibly gakky start, KoW has managed to become my Fantasy game of choice from long before AoS burned down the old world. It's just that I'd generally rather buy GW models to use then Mantic ones. Though I've got more than a few of Mantic's models as well. I just do my best to avoid the Pumbagors from both ranges.

Good thing is that I can use this golem as a base for conversion if I ever want a GOG. Like it's coming out of the earth, maybe (to hide the puny legs), and maybe sculpt a face.

I really love Mantic a lot for their rules and their humor and their mission-vision as a company, but that doesn't mean they get free pass when they produce miniatures that I think could have been done better. Same with GW: I hate them as a company but I will acknowledge if they do really good sculpts.

With regards to the Perry miniatures I wouldn't call them superior to GW miniatures, but they are certainly on par with them. For sure a lot of people will find them boring: they're meant to be historically accurate after all and that doesn't leave much room for creative additions. I can see how people who are more exposed to traditional fantasy miniatures can find them boring. Personally, I like my medieval men realistic so I am an avid fan of Perry miniatures.

And they paint really damn well:

I think Mantic should partner with the Perry's or something. They've already partnered with Army Painter, Avatars of War and Frostgrave. Why not Perry?

Bob, were you referring to these goblins?



As far as I know, Minion is still planning on eventually doing those up on plastic sprues. They're still getting their stuff casted from their first KS campaign.

I think those are some of my favorite goblin designs. Look totally different from everything else out there.

My Mantic goblins are so-so. The metal ones I have are pretty nice, and have a lot of personality.

Yes, those are the ones. Minion miniatures' goblins. I'm glad to hear they are still going for plastic.

So, would you recommend Mantic's plastic goblins to someone who will never buy any of their metals or hybrid kits? Do they stand on their own?

I heard horror stories about the plastic goblins. Decided to snag a box someone was offloading cheaply. Very happy with them. They look nasty and look like they fit in excellently next to night goblins, as opposed to regular GW goblins. I have 0 issue with KoW Goblins. I didn't get any with soft sculpting detail. Their MaAs though...give me a pair of clippers, different heads (Elohi work well), and some serious time and I can make them look great. But I shouldn't need to. That's the problem. They should have been good right out of the box with no modification required.

 heartserenade wrote:


I think Mantic should partner with the Perry's or something. They've already partnered with Army Painter, Avatars of War and Frostgrave. Why not Perry?

They've asked, Perry's aren't interested. IIRC the proposal was for reboxing perry minis as KoW human troops.

Ah, a shame then. Guess they want to market their stuff as strictly historical. Wouldn't blame them.

 Azazelx wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.

I understand what you're saying, but would you mind explaining why you need it to be a self-contained package? I'm asking in a non-sarcastic/confrontational way. I mean, an elf is an elf is a dwarf is a dwarf. The "closed IP" mideset in wargaming is really very much a GW invention, and not a particularly useful one at that. My personal "version" of Fantasy gaming is the Kings of War rules set in a bastardised version of Warhammer's Old World - using a mix of older (3e) and newer fluff, that happens to have a few more human and nonhuman Kingdoms shoehorned in. Which is why Gondor can fight Ogres or Mythological Rome can fight Blood Elves.

If you were playing WW2 games, would you not be willing to use RL history as your "fluff" and use 28mm figures from Artizan and Warlord? Or 15mm models by Batlefront and PSC? While using whichever ruleset you liked on the day

I realize that having the complete package is the exception rather than the norm, but for me, it's one of the biggest reasons I started this hobby back in the day. Like many, I started with GW, specifically Fantasy. What I liked about it was the combination of an interesting world with interesting stories, great miniatures to go along with it, and a ruleset to make that world come alive on the tabletop. That's the mindset that brought me in, and it's a big part of why I love this hobby so much. It's not important to me in all games, like your example with WW2 obviously, or smaller skirmish games where it's just a bit of fun, like Deadzone which I love. But for a huge mass-battle game where I'm going to invest hundreds upon hundreds of hours, i want everything to be connected. If the company releases new fluff, a campaign, or whatever, I would like it to be supported by new models, new scenarios, etc. I want to play against other people who are using the same fluff, so that the narrative of the battle makes sense and is internally consistent. And so on!