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So no Twilight Kin next year

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How much material is the sourcebook likely to contain that we haven't already seen in the main rule book and the Basilian expansion book?

Bearing in mind that the Basilean expansion book is from the previous edition and out of print...

I like the Thuul and the crabs. They are part of that underwater army, right? Can I use them with lizardmen / salamanders?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like the Thuul and the crabs. They are part of that underwater army, right? Can I use them with lizardmen / salamanders?

The crabs are Trident Realm Gigas yes.

You can ally them into a Salamander army as is, or in a pinch count them as Tyrants (Kroxigor equiv).

Watching the recording they put on Facebook, theres a comment about how in order to make something in plastic they have to be certain that it will sell thousands of kits in the first two months otherwise they'll never make back the investment, and thats why most plastics are mostly a non-starter outside of Kickstarter stuff.


They also listed a number of ideas they've had for new units (very basic spitballing type ideas), such as:

Mastiff pack, rook riders, tunnelling monster for dwarves
A shooting and a healing monster for undead
Flying pigs and orcs with big shield or orcs
Red goblin berserker (high on drugs) type unit for ogres

Then said they had 30-40 different ideas across all the core armies (ie. the Mantic Armies) but not all of them would happen.


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 kodos wrote:
So no Twilight Kin next year

Apparently they have fluff (and share a common origin with the night stalkers now) as well as a vague outline of an army list, and are mostly likely to first show up as part of this rumoured KoW skirmish game before getting a full release later.

 JoshInJapan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Those new renders do look good. Hopefully the end products come out as well.

I'd be interested to see what new units armies like orcs get. Aside from potentially silly stuff like flying pigs, I feel that they need some more infantry options.

Really? What do you think they need? Ax, Morax, and Greatax feel like enough-- in my opinion, at least.

I really don't want flying pigs.

They essentially have four types of "regular" orcs with different weapon loadouts for their infrantry options - Sword & Board, Bows, 2 hander and Dual Wield. They're all based on the Mantic Orc sprue, which makes sense, but is limiting for both (ex-)WHFB orc players and Mantic's expansion plans).

What I'd like to see in "Warhammer" terms - Orcs with Spears, Big'Uns (better stats/elites), Black Orcs Sword & Board (heavy armour + better stats/elites), Black Orcs 2-handers. Maybe even incorporating ogre-orcs into he mix as a large infantry other than trolls? Kind of an Olog-hai but more orcish than trollish. I remember long ago Ogres used to be part of the Orc army in WHFB. We can still take Ogre allies, but "Ogres" based on Orcs instead of Humans could be cool twist.

I'd also like to see the whole Savage/Feral orc concept make it's way over. Savage Orcs (lighter armour, more attacks? faster?), Savage Orcs w/bows, Savage Orcs with spears, Savage Orcs w/2handers, Savage Orcs on Boars (Gores). Plus appropriate characters - walords, banner bearers, shamans along with mounted/chariot/wyvern/slasher options. It could be it's own army, but could just as easily be rolled into the existing force.

A lot of those (and some of the existing orcs) could be overhauled pretty easily by setting them up as a few new units and condensing them via options. The current orcs are a bit bloated in terms of their units all being separate entries when they could just as easily be condensed via the good old:

• Exchange shields for two-handed weapons for free (lower Defence to 4+, gain Crushing Strength (1))

Also, for goblins the whole forest goblins and even hoodie goblins thing would be good to see as well and offer a few more new units. I know that Mantic wants to go it's own way, but a bit more compatibility never hurt the game's allure, as Uncharted Empires shows quite nicely.

Can they?

Looking through I can't see any units that can be combined that way.

Ax> Morax, change Melee, Defence, Nerve and number of attacks. The last two must be changed for each unit size, plus they do not have a horde option. Also a huge change in points on a per-unit level.

Ax>Greatax, change Melee, Nerve and Points on a per-unit size level. Also the Swap De5 for De4 and +1 CS, which is fine. However the Nerve and Points would have to be declared separately for each unit size.

Ax>Skulks, different Speed, different Melee, Different Ra, down to De3, different attacks, different special rules and different points. Also limited to troops.

I don't see any other swaps.

I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.

Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.

It's interesting to see that the flying pig unit has a lot of ambivalent to negative response here on dakka, but had a lot of positive response on the related facebook threads.

 Daedleh wrote:
I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.

Thing is you could argue that a lot of for instance the dwarf list is inspired by the WHFB dwarf list - that doesn't mean that the Mantic dwarf fluff or models remotely resemble the GW ones. Orc berserkers could look different and have different origins whilst still fulfilling a useful niche in the army. With KoW splitting orcs and goblins into separate lists it does make orcs feel like they are lacking variety even if the number of different units they have isn't so far behind some of the others. Two of the interesting choices are irregular for starters.

 Daedleh wrote:
Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.

That still doesn't make me like them any more than I did.

 NTRabbit wrote:
It's interesting to see that the flying pig unit has a lot of ambivalent to negative response here on dakka, but had a lot of positive response on the related facebook threads.

they had also only negative response on the german forums were I posted the news

Flying pigs are fun as a throw-away concept. Flying pigs as a Mantic-quality $35 kit? Not so fun.

I'd say more variations of infantry is the least thing orcs need. Spears would look nice though.

I'm not super-stoked for flying pigs, although they might be cool with the right artistic concept.
I don't think there exist any cavalry unit with flying (everything is either infantry, Large infantry/Cavalry or Monsters) at the moment, so that would help the orc list to stand out a bit.

What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.

Something like the Dwarf/Elf flame belchers but fewer, stronger attacks and 18" range.

When I look on the Orc list, spears are an infantry option that is missing, but I don't think that is what they need.
But Morax Gore Riders and a Skulk chariot

For Dwarfs I miss a Hero option (Iron Guard Captain) and something like a flying Warsmith unit (with pistols)

 Zywus wrote:
What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.

I've put something forward, though it's much lower tech than that

How about captured enemy wizards strapped on a pole and aimed roughly in the right direction?

We need the orc quadruple axe.



"This was a bad idea, even on the scale of Orcish bad ideas." - Orc weaponsmith

Part of the problem is that the basic Ax unit is actually pretty hard hitting, with CS 1 and DEF 5+. The main areas to improve it in the list would be to include higher nerve units or Me 3+.

Or, go back to the well and do Black Orcs. Me 3+, CS1, Def 5+, and add nerve to other orc infantry units in 6".

I guess with having Def 5+ infantry already, the Big Shield Orc idea is falling a little flat.

 Baragash wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
What I really would like to see them get is some kind of semi-short-range war engine contraption. Some kind of chemical fire or acid launcher. Helping orcs be a but more involved in the shooting phase, and help deal with enemy flyers in particular. But still keeping the list as primarily close combat and short range.

I've put something forward, though it's much lower tech than that

I like the sound of that.

How about half troll or half ogre archers/stone throwers?

Or maybe having something like:

Troll Stone throwers - Thrown weapon 12" range, 5+ to hit, Piercing 1 - Represents smaller rock throwing as they lumber across the battlefield. Could also give Orcs a bit of anti-flier coverage. Maybe reduces melee to 5+ to represent no dedicated melee weapon? or just have it as a points increase without a negative.

Giant Rock Thrower - Treat as Bow maybe?(24" range with move penalty) as 12" thrown range isnt that much for a giant 5+ to hit D6, Piercing 1 - Giants often carry around baskets/nets/sacks full of rocks that they throw at enemy units. the baskets/nets/sacks fall apart in mid air raining down a barrage of stones that can decimate lightly armoured units.

So the giant ability is more like a shotgun effect which ties in with his Attacks rather than give him a different stat line for the throwing weapon.

Either of these would give orcs a ranged attack and still keep in line with 'savage orcs' style without adding in technology.

How about troll or giant throwing orclings?
breath attack with d3 or d6 damage

 Daedleh wrote:


I see a lot of the units that you're suggesting are copies of the WHFB Orcs, asides from Ogres. Every Savage Orc suggestion is ripped from WHFB, as are Big Uns (the elite Orc unit is GreatAx) and Black Orcs. When we make units for any future expansions, we'll be coming up with unique Mantic IP units. Spear orcs are a possibility, however I think for the remaining unit entries we'll be coming up with something more original.

Also, I should clarify that flying pigs = flying gore riders. Background wise something along the lines of an Abyssal Dwarf interbreeding experiment (like ADwarf halfbreeds) that was uncontrollable by the ADwarfs and a flock escaped, but they're now bred extensively by Orcs.

Yep, a lot of my ideas are taken from WHFB. I don't make any pretension otherwise. There are a couple of things I think worth rememebring, though:

GW"s concept of Orcs and bigger, meaner orcs is straight from LotR Orcs/Uruk-Hai.
KoW is a system with its origins in providing proxies - initially as figures, and then as a proxy game. I find it a little unfortunate that Tomb Kings and Skaven players seem like have more analogues for their models than Orc & Goblin players. I really enjoy KoW, but my Black Orc and Big'un models don't feel like they really have a place in the army that befits them alongside the regulars.

But if you forget them as WHFB analogues for a minute and look at them as more general fantasy tropes:

Bigger, meaner Orc elites. (adds variety instead of GreatAx and that's it)
Orc Berserkers. I mean, Ogres get berserkers. Orcs fit the trope.
+ weapon options.

I feel like Dwarf Berserkers are more WHFB-like than Orc Berserkers, but they're in because slayers and (initially) the AoW boxed set that Mantic used to sell on their site.


Flying pigs/gore riders seems like the kind of embarrassing pun that should sit alongside GW classics like "Mon'Keigh" and that other, similarly cringeworthy one that escapes me for the moment. And fungoid orcs/orks.
Making the flying unit mounts gores (aka pigs) seems more like a way to shoehorn an awful pun into the game than an actual well-thought-out unit.

I mean, Naiads (and Tau) are at least well-done versions of the old, old "Codex: Fishmen" joke...

Of the 7 Orc units, 5 of them are elite, only Ax and Skulks aren't elite.

The fluff for flying pigs isn't comical, the RC has no control over whether Mantic delivers non-comical sculpts or not.

For the most part, we'll be looking at adding things which aren't Orcs to make the list more interesting as both an army list and a hobby project.

An option for Greatax to swap 1 CS for +1 def should cover black orcs. I dont see an elegant way for savage orcs to get all their options in, but a orc berserker unit would be cool.

 Baragash wrote:

The fluff for flying pigs isn't comical

Lol

The Grand Orc Warlord Poobumwee has an awesome serious backstory too i am sure

Write what you like about flying pigs but they will always be flying pigs and flying pigs will always be a joke.

 Baragash wrote:

The fluff for flying pigs isn't comical, the RC has no control over whether Mantic delivers non-comical sculpts or not.

There are two things wrong with that statement. I'll only bother to address the first.

You can make as much effort as you like to do a good job with the fluff, and you might well do so. But ultimately you're making an attempt to justify the shoehorning in of the stupidest of jokes/puns instead of making something unique that won't be embarrassingly lame - like some other sort of non-pun-related flying unit mount.

Don't be an echo chamber, rules committee! Many of us have always respected and defended you, but it doesn't mean that all your ideas are golden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:
Of the 7 Orc units, 5 of them are elite, only Ax and Skulks aren't elite.

Maybe you guys need to talk. One guy says one is the elite, the other says they're all elite.

BTW, when "everything" is elite, then nothing is.

 Baragash wrote:

The fluff for flying pigs isn't comical, .

If i get my hands on it it will be.

 Azazelx wrote:


Maybe you guys need to talk. One guy says one is the elite, the other says they're all elite.

BTW, when "everything" is elite, then nothing is.

I was giving the KoW Orc equivalent of BigUns, which are GreatAx. Morax are two handers which AFAIK are not from WHFB (though of course I'm sure I'm going to be wrong on that). I can see that wasn't clear from what I said though.

No-one said that everything is elite. Of the unit entries in the Orc list, the majority are elite but then so are the entries for Ogres. And Abyssals. And Elves. And Basileans. And The Herd. This isn't something unique to Orcs. It just means that there is a greater variety of elite units, necessitating a greater number of unit entries in the list.

 Azazelx wrote:
Flying pigs/gore riders seems like the kind of embarrassing pun that should sit alongside GW classics like "Mon'Keigh" and that other, similarly cringeworthy one that escapes me for the moment. And fungoid orcs/orks.
Making the flying unit mounts gores (aka pigs) seems more like a way to shoehorn an awful pun into the game than an actual well-thought-out unit.

I mean, Naiads (and Tau) are at least well-done versions of the old, old "Codex: Fishmen" joke...

Huh, the connection that my mind had made when I saw the figures was 'hog nosed bat' - which is a little, tiny, teeny critter in the real world. (Smaller than shrews.)



Probably what I will be going with for my own head cannon, regardless of what Mantic comes up with.

The Auld Grump - but then the grandfather of fantasy games has owl-bears, so what do I know?

For flying Gore Riders I expect something like this
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/36/c8/e4/36c8e4a1595181c4b2b4ce0ba98cd0e8.jpg

just with more Ax and Orcs