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The deff dread is basically an extra warboss in your troops/heavy support slot. AV12 is weak though. I usually proxy them as mega dreads. Those things are awesome, I really hope we get something similar in the next codex.

Yea that would be nice, and possible as well. I think if your spamming walkers, they are OK, or in friendly games, but there is a reason I only build 2 dreds, and its mostly because it was fun to do.

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

Yes they out run them, but since it was a friendly game and he was nids we ended up basically stacking mid and getting into a grand melee, so didnt really apply in the game. if it were vs an army that made me chase them down with the wagons then yes the wagons get too far ahead and the dreads fall farther and farther behind. Its not a tactic I would suggest using. Just something I tried caus I was interested. trying to think outside the box if you will to maybe breath life back into dreads.

Difficult situations inspire ingenious solutions.

I went to play some 40k at my local spot today, and realized that somehow I had forgotten one of my army bags and only had about 1/2 my army. Rather then go all the way home again, I borrowed two chimeras off a fellow and made this list to play a 1850 pt game:

Wazzdakka
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp pk
Bikes(6)
Bikes(7)
Gretchin(10)- in ADL
Tankbustas(10)
Deffkopta x2
Deffkopta x2
Aegis Defense line
Big Gunz kannon x3 3 additional grots 3 ammo runts
Lootas(5) meks x3 KMB x3
Lootas(5) meks x3 KMB x3

Looted wagon- skorcha big shootax2 ard case
Looted wagon- skorcha big shootax2 ard case

The small loota units road around in the looted wagon blasting stuff. It was fun to finally be on the other end of squad jumping out of a chimera and blasting three plasma shots at vehicles. Because the meks had mek tools, they were able to make repairs too. Pesky unit for 145 pts.

 keltikhoa wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

Yes they out run them, but since it was a friendly game and he was nids we ended up basically stacking mid and getting into a grand melee, so didnt really apply in the game. if it were vs an army that made me chase them down with the wagons then yes the wagons get too far ahead and the dreads fall farther and farther behind. Its not a tactic I would suggest using. Just something I tried caus I was interested. trying to think outside the box if you will to maybe breath life back into dreads.

Well, I could actually see that army working, as (unlike kanz) you could field deff dreads as troops without wasting precious heavy support slots. That's why I'm asking

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, I could actually see that army working, as (unlike kanz) you could field deff dreads as troops without wasting precious heavy support slots. That's why I'm asking

It showed some potential... but not a whole lot. maybe some more trial games. I was runing 2 warbosses so the wagons full of nobs were my troops. You may be right though, 2 big meks w lootas and or burnas in wagons to keep em rolling and the 2 dreads as troops may work. Just dont fight necrons

 Jidmah wrote:
The deff dread is basically an extra warboss in your troops/heavy support slot. AV12 is weak though. I usually proxy them as mega dreads. Those things are awesome, I really hope we get something similar in the next codex.

I've thought about doing this, but haven't tried it out yet. What are your thoughts on how to arm Mega Dreads? The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon, does it work better on a Mega-Dread? The default loadout on a Mega Dread at least makes SLIGHTLY more sense this edition. Last edition it was just stupid. Mega Dread comes with a Kill Kannon and two Big Shootas. Well, that's great except that if you fire an Ordinance Weapon, you can't fire any other weapons. Of course you're going to fire the Kill-Kannon, so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use? Now in 6th edition this is somewhat better in that at least the Big Shootas can fire Snap Shots, which is I suppose better than nothing.

Do you run it in the default configuration, or is there a better configuration you've found? Personally I'd be tempted to run the default configuration and add another Big Shoota, OR I'd replace the Kill Kannon with another Rippa Klaw, and give it a Mega-Charga and Grot Riggers.

How well do nob bikers work now? Are they still good, or are MANZ in a battlewagon better?

Bikers are rocking as well as ever.

Bikes still do very well. More so now even (thanks to hammer of wrath, and true t5) They still get extremely costly once you add in klaws and the such.

I typically like to run lists with a group of bikes w/ 2 klaws and biker boss w/ klaw, and a squad of 4 mega nobs + megaboss... gives me 8 klaws in their deployment usually, and not concentrated in a single unit.. typically can split bosses off and (hopefully) wreck/wipe out 4 units/targets a turn (or at least tie them up)... granted you can't do it vs all opponents. some units will be too hard to send the MANZ or bikes in w/o a boss. (Power sword/maul toting death company w/ reculsiarch being one that the bikes have a hard time with from my exp)

Well, I'm thinking of using them mainly as a support unit in my lists. Probably just one unit of 5 with the biker boss. Then I'd see if I wanted another or wanted to expand the squad.


Is this the usual layout for Nob Bikers: PK, BP + PK, 1 BP, 1 BC, Painboy, all cyborks?

For 5 I think norm is: painboy, pk+bp, pk+waaagh banner, bc x2 or 1 with choppa/slugga

All cybork

If you go up in size I would add a 2nd bosspole, heck having 2 in a squad of 5 ain't a bad idea

Murrdox wrote:The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon

Will somebody please explain this?

For the imperial guard, everybody loves the LRBT. 170 points gets you a S8 Ap3 large blast, and 3 heavy bolters, with 3HP worth of AV14. Meanwhile, for 170 points, you get a S7 Ap3 large blast, and 4 "heavy bolters", with 4HP worth of open-topped AV14. These two units seem virtually identical. Why do ork players hate killcannon battlewagons so much when the imperial guard loves their russes?

I've never been sure of that myself. I personally run a Killkannon battlewagon all the time. I'll take that before taking a transport for my Meganobz, even. Fill it with a KFF Big Mek and 3 KMB Meks- though I give it 4 Rokkits and a Kannon instead of the 4 Big Shootas. Makes it more expensive, but also means I can fire off a salvo of 8 Strength 8 shots a turn, and/or have (especially with Grots) 4 or 5 chances to repair Hull Points and such.

As long as the Wagon doesn't get splattered in the first turn, it essentially doesn't die, and does a ton of damage.


One of my friends I face off against loves Sternguard Drop Pods. He'll target the Wagon first turn- if he kills it, well, he's killed it. If not, AP3 Pie Plate on his nicely clustered unit.

Oh, right, and I wasnt' even counting that it's a transport. Firstly, note how few AV14 transports there are. Secondly, notice how cheap that battlewagon with a killcannon is.
Thirdly, we're talking about something that has the same price, durability, and killing power as a leman russ... except that it can deliver 5 MANZ and a mega-armored warboss into stuff. That's huge.

And the best part is, with a single upgrade, they don't even need to get out of the transport to attack stuff in close combat.

Except it's not as durable Ailaros, and it's killing power is nowhere near that of a basic leman russ. The kill cannon has 1/3rd the range of the battlecannon, has one less strength, and ends up costing 10pts more base than the leman russ if you add no upgrades whatsoever. Then you realize it's open topped, and that its side armor is only 12. 1 more hp doesn't make up the fact that a lascannon or plasma gun has a 50-50 chance of blowing it up with a pen.

Then it cuts down on transport capacity, disqualifies it from being taken as a dedicated transport for nobz, and makes it want to stay relatively slow all game.

To be honest, I can't see how anyone would want it ocer a leman russ if firepower is your goal. If the kill kannon was 25pts cheaper or so i could see taking it, but right now it just feels like a waste of potential.

 Ailaros wrote:

Murrdox wrote:The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon

Will somebody please explain this?

There are a couple huge differences between the Battle Cannon and the Kill Kannon which make the Battle Cannon superior to the Ork version, and much more worth the points than the Ork version is.

- The Battle Cannon has a 72" range. The KillKannon is only 24". If the KillKannon had the range on it, you'd see it used much more often, but the range on the gun means that your opponents can simply get out of its way. You're not going to be able to use the KillKannon to devastate a static gun line army such as the Tau, because you're going to have to spend at least the first turn moving forward.

- There is a huge difference between the S7 of the KillKannon and S8 of the Battle Cannon. First, S8 means you can Instant Death everything that is T4, which is quite a lot. This is a huge advantage. No Feel No Pain saves, and multi-wound models die. S7 just doesn't do that for you. Also, S8 means you're MUCH more suited for killing vehicles with the Ordinance special rule. You have a very good chance of glancing or penetrating AV12 armor. No one goes vehicle hunting with a KillKannon, even against a Rhino you only have a roughly 50% chance of getting a penetrating hit. (taking into account the re-roll the Ordinance rule gets you)

- Then you have the improved Ballistic Skill of the Imperial Guard, which makes it more likely you are going to hit your target than the Orks.

So when you break it down the Imperial Guard is definitely getting a lot more use out of those 170 points for the Leman Russ than the Orks are for the Battlewagon.

If the KillKannon only cost 40-50 points maybe it'd be worth taking more often. I'm definitely not going to say it doesn't have its uses, I've used it before. But I can say that rarely have I had a Battlewagon with a KillKannon that has earned its points back. The Boom Gun, for example, is S8 AP3 and 36" range. Contrary to the KillKannon, you DO see this being used fairly regularly in Ork lists, even though it's more expensive than the KillKannon, and mounted on a crappier vehicle! Of course a Boom Wagon is only 120 points even with the 'Ard Case upgrade, so that probably has something to do with it as well.

Like I posted above though, I'm curious about how a KillKannon works in practice on a Mega Dread. It might have better synergy on a walker than on a Battlewagon.

 virx67 wrote:
Well, I'm thinking of using them mainly as a support unit in my lists. Probably just one unit of 5 with the biker boss. Then I'd see if I wanted another or wanted to expand the squad.


Is this the usual layout for Nob Bikers: PK, BP + PK, 1 BP, 1 BC, Painboy, all cyborks?

I normally run A biker boss and 5 bikers. My loadout is something like this

WB:
Klaw, cybork, Attack squig, bike

Nobs:
PK x2, painboy, all cybork, bikes, waaaagh banner, bp.


I should throw in big choppas but I usually forget.

Usually I play 6 Nob Bikerz for 410 points. Cybork bodies for all, 2x PK, 2x BC, 1x Waagh Banner, 1 BP and of course the Painboy.
Just make sure you can avoid fire templates. Even with FNP rule flamers are effective against bikers!

Murrdox wrote:
so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use?

Well, you do have extra weapons to deal with multiple "Weapon Destroyed" results that could immobilize your walker.

Murrdox wrote:
There are a couple huge differences between the Battle Cannon and the Kill Kannon which make the Battle Cannon superior to the Ork version, and much more worth the points than the Ork version is.

Agreed. Although in smaller games it can be a winner.

 virx67 wrote:
How well do nob bikers work now? Are they still good, or are MANZ in a battlewagon better?

'

i've been running both, and personally my Manz have been doing INSANELY WELL, they just won me a tournament last weekend

I'll say that MANz are as good as Biker Nobz the day MANz aren't effing 25 dollars a pop.

Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

Yes, the absolute range of the weapon is shorter, but the relative range is sufficient. Remember, that LRBT is likely hanging out in the DZ while the BW is rushing forwards. The effective range of 36" of the killcannon is plenty sufficient here.

Killing power, as mentioned is nearly a draw. Basically everything is wounded on 2+s regardless, and both tanks are likely to glance whatever they shoot at (and neither are that likely to wreck). Yes, it doesn't ignore FNP, but FNP is only 5+ now, and I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

As for open-topped, it's an asset, not a liability. Yes, you're a bit more likely to be wrecked by stuff, but against everything else, it comes with 4HP. It's 1/3rd MORE durable.

Meanwhile, open-topped means that you can shove the thing with 12 lootas, ALL OF WHICH CAN SHOOT out of an infinite-sized chimera hatch. That's right, your lootas are now AV14.

And, come on, it's a TRANSPORT. If you had the option to take an upgrade that allowed your leman russ the ability to transport as many models as a chimera, you would take it in a heartbeat. For orks, you get it for FREE. And it's in a codex where you can take terminators. This is so much better than what a russ can offer, i'm hyperventilating just thinking about it.

What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

All I need to know about the killkannon is that it's range is 24".
That alone makes it a no purchase.
With all my opponents shooting better than me, and sitting in the back corner of the table, 24" is just not cutting it.
I'll spend the points on more Lootas.

How is it moving 12" and shooting the kill kannon? I thought moving 12" forced you to snap fire, something the kill kannon can't do.

That would make it a really crappy Demolisher as you would only be able to move 6-7" and fire the kannon.

 matphat wrote:
All I need to know about the killkannon is that it's range is 24".
That alone makes it a no purchase.
With all my opponents shooting better than me, and sitting in the back corner of the table, 24" is just not cutting it.
I'll spend the points on more Lootas.

I coulda sworn that the KillKannon has a 36" range, even without moving...

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

A little bit + a little bit + a little bit = a lot.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

The entire Blood Angel army ? The new Noise Marines with Icon of Excess ? Trust me, that 5+ Feel No Pain makes ME feel the pain everytime my opponent rolls a 5 or 6. I've brought 2 Killkanons against Blood Angels 3 weeks ago, and they did basically nothing the whole game (in fact, I've run several Killkanons for quite a long time, and they're just worthless. My boomwagons do a better job, are less expensive and surprinsingly, die less often... like it or not, there is a *huge* difference between a 36" gun, and a 24" one).

 Ailaros wrote:
What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

I guess I must be "bonkers" then. Oh btw, I don't know a single Guard player that considers LRBT to be actually "good". Most just run several Manticores / Basilisks, and keep their Russes for fun games or when they're bored with their WAAC lists. Just sayin'...

i've been running both, and personally my Manz have been doing INSANELY WELL, they just won me a tournament last weekend

What was your list ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about boarding planks ?

In the description it says "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" ... in the FAQ it says that a Walker can't attack back.
So, can the Ork be shot by Overwatch, even from a walker ?


And how many planks can you put on a battlewagon ?
Can you pay for more than one plank so more than one ork can attack that way ?
If you pay only for one plank, can you put 2 on the battlewagon, like it is on the trukk ?

You can't have more than one Boarding Plank upgrade. Also, your model can't be the target of an overwatch because there is no assault move, you just happen to have free CC attacks.
That makes me remember I asked something about it on this very topic earlier.

=> If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you still use the boarding plank on the turn the vehicle arrived? <=

I mean, can you people see the benefit? A trukk comes from reserve, you directly move towards an enemy vehicle, and your PK Nob does the job.
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be allowed since there is no "assault" per se, it's just CC attacks thanks to a vehicle upgrade.

Murrdox wrote:
I've thought about doing this, but haven't tried it out yet. What are your thoughts on how to arm Mega Dreads? The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon, does it work better on a Mega-Dread? The default loadout on a Mega Dread at least makes SLIGHTLY more sense this edition. Last edition it was just stupid. Mega Dread comes with a Kill Kannon and two Big Shootas. Well, that's great except that if you fire an Ordinance Weapon, you can't fire any other weapons. Of course you're going to fire the Kill-Kannon, so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use? Now in 6th edition this is somewhat better in that at least the Big Shootas can fire Snap Shots, which is I suppose better than nothing.

Do you run it in the default configuration, or is there a better configuration you've found? Personally I'd be tempted to run the default configuration and add another Big Shoota, OR I'd replace the Kill Kannon with another Rippa Klaw, and give it a Mega-Charga and Grot Riggers.

I almost use the default config. The killkannon is actually quite awesome on megadreads, as it's "free", and you're moving straight at the enemies anyway. Trading it for a rippa klaw adds only a single attack, and the supa-skorcha really isn't that much better (personal preference though). However, I always trade away the shootaz for skorchas, in 5th if gave you the option to torch some stuff out of cover, in 6th it allows you to fire a mean overwatch at something that's trying to tarpit you. Grot riggers are pretty much a must, you don't want to have your 175 point bad ass walker sitting somewhere immobilized. I'm no longer taking the supa-charger though. It's expensive, and AV13 walkers usually don't really care a lot about not making a charge, so I simply start gambling as soon as I'm within 12". I'd rather save 30 points on two mega-dreads and upgrade the third one to a meka dread.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

And a lot more likely to penetrate the vehicle and outright destroy or immobilize it. Not to mention that you could get four rokkits and a kannon for 10 points less which are actually quite good at destroying vehicles. Or for just 20 points you get the best anti-tank weapon in our codex - which prevents you from shooting the killkannon whenever you use it.

Yes, the absolute range of the weapon is shorter, but the relative range is sufficient. Remember, that LRBT is likely hanging out in the DZ while the BW is rushing forwards. The effective range of 36" of the killcannon is plenty sufficient here.

You mean 30" while exposing side armor and maybe rear amor and being in danger of getting assaulted by some rag-tag IoM soldiers with krak grenades? Or shot by meltas guns? While you are snap-firing all your other weapons? While the leman russ is staying far out of harms way and can shoot everything at his full BS3?

Killing power, as mentioned is nearly a draw. Basically everything is wounded on 2+s regardless, and both tanks are likely to glance whatever they shoot at (and neither are that likely to wreck). Yes, it doesn't ignore FNP, but FNP is only 5+ now, and I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Biovores, the Doom of Malan'tai, Raveners, Tyranid Warriors/Shrikes, Venomtropes, Zoantropes, Nobz, Wracks, Reavers, Crisis Suits, all Characters in power armor, and last, but not least, any model with T6 or higher disagree on S7 being the same as S8. Oh, and instant death is still good against models with 2+ or invul saves.

As for open-topped, it's an asset, not a liability. Yes, you're a bit more likely to be wrecked by stuff, but against everything else, it comes with 4HP. It's 1/3rd MORE durable.

Except that, unlike your leman russ, which is hugging the board edge, people are not going to shoot AV14, but your weaker side armor with a lascannon, exploding the entire vehicle about 25% of the time. I have lost only a fraction of my battlewagons to loss of hull points in 6th. Almost all of them simply explode with most of their HP left.

Meanwhile, open-topped means that you can shove the thing with 12 lootas, ALL OF WHICH CAN SHOOT out of an infinite-sized chimera hatch. That's right, your lootas are now AV14.

As well as BS1 and half of them are dead and the other half pinned once someone shoots as much as an autocannon into the exposed side armor. You know, because you have to be in the middle of the board with your low-ranged killkannon, while lootaz might as well be safely in your deployment zone.

And, come on, it's a TRANSPORT. If you had the option to take an upgrade that allowed your leman russ the ability to transport as many models as a chimera, you would take it in a heartbeat. For orks, you get it for FREE.

Think about that again. We need twice as much space in our transports to archive what other armies would. How about geting a transport capacity of five in your leman russ? That probably doesn't sound as awesome anymore.

And it's in a codex where you can take terminators. This is so much better than what a russ can offer, i'm hyperventilating just thinking about it.

Yeah, right. Terminators. MANz are about as much terminators as ogryns are. Why aren't you fielding chimeras full of ogryins?

What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

You have never played a single game using those models you're advertising. Borrow models, field three killkannons with whatever you think is awesome inside your "better leman russes" and tell us how it went. You are bonkers for telling ork players that a completely terrible model is awesome just because you want it for your guard army. I'll trade you killkannon battlewagons for leman russ battle tanks any day. Or ogryns.

Pretty much everything has been said on why the killkannon is bad. If it were cheaper, or longer ranged, or stronger, it would be a decent gun.
As it is, it's not. You argument is basically saying that a (single) guardsman is just as good in close combat as an ork boy. It just has one WS less, one attack less and no furious charge. One less strength is 13.5% worse than a leman russ. 24" is 66.6% worse than a leman russ.

The Killkannon is 70pts for a 24inch str7 weapon, thats why it sucks. Its got no range and is REALLY pricey. So its 70 points for anti troop, something we definitely dont need help with, on an already 90pt chassis + upgrades. Gee.....I wonder why it sucks?