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I have found trying to get objectives in area terrain (or at least get a raider wreckage on an objective) really helps when it comes to scoring.

I had another 1500 point game if anyone is interested:

The Black Buzzards VS GK Razorspam - 1500pts

That's pretty much my thoughts on the good Lady. You save 20 points, but you lose the 2++, a blast pistol, free deep strike, 3+ poison, 2d6 drug rolls and poisoned weapons that are effectively rending on a 5+.

You do gain a better base statline, but not enough to make a difference aside from the extra wound. The extra ballistic skill is useless as she has no firearm, both the duke and the lady hit on a 3+ and neither have a high enough WS to make MEQ hit on a 5+, though Malys does have enough to make GEQ hit on a 5+. She also has 3 more attacks than the duke, but at strength and AP 3.

Baronyu also explained why her redeployment ability is pretty situational, and only useful when you have the first turn.

Her psychic immunity is her one high point, but it begs the question of where to put it? If you put her with a wych or CC unit, your opponent can just make them evaporate from gunfire without needing psychic powers. If you put it with a warrior blob, she's not going to be contributing anything to the fight (again, no ranged weapons aside from 'nades) and there's always just the option of shooting that unit. Or assaulting them. Malys isn't all that threatening of a CC threat.

Also, in regard to the grotesque models question. Yes, they are slightly less bulky than the 'official' GW model. But it is such a terrible model that I wouldn't exactly use it as a yardstick to compare your model to. You're better off comparing it to the art in the codex. Those models that can be easily converted to look like the codex art with some green stuff, some extra talos bits, and maybe a bit of guitar string (to make the little vestigal spine that connects their spine to their pelvis) or something similar.

Good points all around regarding lady Malys. I've been preparing a list with her in, but I might consider swapping her for the duke, I'll see if I can squeeze him in.

Also, can I deploy the Duke with a squad of Warriors, leave them and join my Wyches while embarking a transport with the Warriors. I mean, the question is, can these Warriors buy a Raider, as they'd be over 10 man limit. I guess that it's legal as that choice happens during army building, and whether to join the unit with the Duke happens later, but it's a question worth asking.

Totally legal for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Buying a transport happens at the list-building stage, attaching the duke happens at the deployment phase.

thelordcal wrote:I've personally been wrestling with taking an HQ that fits in with an "all" shooting army. Currently i'm just taking an Archon w. Shadow Field and Blaster to ride with my blaster born, but i've been contemplating:

Haemy - 75
-LG, Hex Rifle

Chilling with:

Wracks (5) - 85pts.
-LG, Apoth w. Hex Rifle


Maybe slapping a raider on em, they won't ride in it, but its another way to get another Dark Lance in the List, plus could easily use it to help screen troop carrying vehicles. The main idea would be for the squad to camp back court objectives (i know very un DE) providing decent 36" fire support and having access to decent charge deterrence via 2 LG. Plus they help clear out my back court of Deep Strikers.

Thoughts?

You're best off running Hex Squads cheap as possible. If it gets assaulted, it will die. Giving it a Liquifier Gun that 95% of the time will only be there as a (minimal) charge-deterrant is inefficient, as it really won't stop anything, or deter anyone, and is 10pts best used elsewhere. Same for the Wrack unit (though slightly less so) it's a weapon that is almost a polar opposite in task to the rifle.

I find that a Haemonculi without a WWP should be more than 65pts (and with, shouldn't be more than 100.)
Best ran as either A: Liquifier Gun + Venom Blade (versatile assult unit to accompany assaulty troops - primarily wracks / grotesques). B: Hex Rifle (Harrasment unit, to go with Hex Wracks / other Hex Haems and these days Eldar Rangers / Pathfinders).

Same for the Wracks - 3 men (2 wracks, 1 acothyst w/ Hex Rifle) is 55pts and so small as to be ignored until it's killed something important or the rest of your armies been wiped out. Great way to get a cheap raider too. Use the 30pts you save from the needless 2 men + liquifier elsewhere.

If deep strikers are a problem, then 5 wracks in a venom, with liquifier and acothyst with venom blade will be much more effective.

I've posted a list here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/473230.page

I've bought a squad of metal Incubi yesterday on the local eBay variation so I will probably be changing the list. Or are Incubi not worth it anymore?

I'd be grateful for any comments either here, or in the Army Lists thread.

On a random note somehow my battle report ended up on YTTH and I had the privilege of having it analysed by Stelek himself.

 Alkasyn wrote:
I've posted a list here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/473230.page

I've bought a squad of metal Incubi yesterday on the local eBay variation so I will probably be changing the list. Or are Incubi not worth it anymore?

I'd be grateful for any comments either here, or in the Army Lists thread.

Incubi are great at taking out Meq, but they cost more than meq and have to slog all the way across the battlefield with no gun of any sort. by the time you add in their transport, something to give them grenades, and a support unit they had better kill 2-3 full tactical squads to make it worth it.
The problem is, they cannot deal with Teq, even with the 85 point upgrade sergeant. They have a very niche role these days. I personally love the old models and run them as often as I can but they are not the cats meow, not that they were in 5th either.

Imotek stormlord brings with him night fighting, I know its cheese but how useful could he be with a long ranged force?

 ???????? wrote:
Imotek stormlord brings with him night fighting, I know its cheese but how useful could he be with a long ranged force?

DE and Necrons cannot ally, also DE dont do long range very well. Nothing in the codex has range over 36"

 Exergy wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
I've posted a list here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/473230.page

I've bought a squad of metal Incubi yesterday on the local eBay variation so I will probably be changing the list. Or are Incubi not worth it anymore?

I'd be grateful for any comments either here, or in the Army Lists thread.

Incubi are great at taking out Meq, but they cost more than meq and have to slog all the way across the battlefield with no gun of any sort. by the time you add in their transport, something to give them grenades, and a support unit they had better kill 2-3 full tactical squads to make it worth it.
The problem is, they cannot deal with Teq, even with the 85 point upgrade sergeant. They have a very niche role these days. I personally love the old models and run them as often as I can but they are not the cats meow, not that they were in 5th either.

My sentiments exactly, the "Exarch" costs too much for me to be able to field him in a reasonable-priced list and the squad itself seems like an overkill most of the time. I'd actually be pretty worried if my 5 Incubi were to assault a 10 man Tactical squad with a Power Weapon.

What about multiple units of wyches with haywires in venoms with a haemi with liquifier.
The unit can get close destroy a transport or vehicle most of the time, if it is a transport(metal boxes anybody) you can then spray it with a flamer which ignores power armour half the time and termi 1/3. If you have not turboboosted you can also cover the unit in splinter cannon fire.
If you have turboboosted you get a 3+ cover save due to flickerfield and jink if not you get just better than a 4+.
Back this up with blasterborn for killing termis.

Also if he charges you have a flicker field and if the venom is destroyed he is in combat with a tarpit, no overwatch for Mr Marine.

 Exergy wrote:
Nothing in the codex has range over 36"

Flyer missiles being the only exception, and limited arc, flyer movement restrictions etc., so ya, not a long range threat really.

Wouldn't work.

For multiple reasons.

The foremost being that Venoms have a transport capacity of 5 models, Wyches have a minimum unit size of 5 models and therefore there is no room for a Haemonculus.

Moving flat out only gives a 4+. Having a flickerfield does not modify the jink cover save whatsoever.

 ???????? wrote:
What about multiple units of wyches with haywires in venoms with a haemi with liquifier.
The unit can get close destroy a transport or vehicle most of the time, if it is a transport(metal boxes anybody) you can then spray it with a flamer which ignores power armour half the time and termi 1/3. If you have not turboboosted you can also cover the unit in splinter cannon fire.
If you have turboboosted you get a 3+ cover save due to flickerfield and jink if not you get just better than a 4+.
Back this up with blasterborn for killing termis.

Also if he charges you have a flicker field and if the venom is destroyed he is in combat with a tarpit, no overwatch for Mr Marine.

Units of HWG wyches is the common setup these days, but not with a haemy, they get a measly 5+ FNP save for the price of a haemy, but they aren't living any longer than they would without the haemy. Put the haemy elsewhere for pain token. You only need 5 wyches to destroy a stationary HP4 vehicle, and about 7-8 if it's moving.

You do not get 3+ jink save with flickerfield, flickerfield gives you a 5+ invulnerable save, it doesn't give you stealth USR.

Flickerfield against assault will only at most save your raider for another day, but most of the time, it will still crash, if it's a dedicated vehicle assault unit.

In short, follow DE's philosophy, once an unit has done the job you bought it for, it can die, don't try to extend their miserable life.

On the topic of incubi, although I'm not one to field them, I think they're still decent if you're not fighting blobs and blobs of TEQ.

EDIT/PS: @Lokas

I had forgotten how normal grotesques look in the codex, haha... Still probably gonna go with either beastmen minotaurs or VC varghiests, I already have a box of chaos spawn for grotes conversion, so I'll match the creepy monster-looking theme for the remaining 2-3.

ThePhish wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Nothing in the codex has range over 36"

Flyer missiles being the only exception, and limited arc, flyer movement restrictions etc., so ya, not a long range threat really.

Except you do have stuff with ranges between 24 and 36, which is also the distances at which you get +2 to cover saves.

A Ravager would be able to move 6" and fire all of its weapons within that +2 zone, giving it a 3+ Jink save and still able to operate at maximum firepower.

That is great long range potential.

Sorry I did not explain myself properly, the main reason for the haemi is the liquifier (which now can overwatch, not too useful but helpful).
Ok, I did not mean that flicker and jink combine but if you have both of them the chances are 3+ for turbo and flicker and about 4+ for jink and flicker, work the math out. This will hopefully negate the amount of fire it will be taking at the range it will be operating.

No, you won't get 3+ or 4+ with jink + flicker, they don't add to eachother, the only things that could improve jink save is stealth/shrouded/skilled rider... and/or any new special rules that might be in the upcoming new codices.

Also, same thing, don't put the haemy with the wyches with the aim to extend their life. They've done their job once they've blew the tank, let them die, don't waste point on an unit that will die either way.

EDIT: Wait, I think I see where the confusion is... You don't get to roll both saves, you use the best one, and if that failed, you punch your opponent and call him a cheater. Flicker in 6th ed is mainly for... A) You lost 1st turn, and you want to keep your stationary vehicles safe for that opening turn, and B) you get assaulted, as there is no cover save in CC. It's mostly considered overpriced because of the 50% nightfighting rule, and that we have no reason to stay stationary after the 1st turn.

Thanks did not know that you could not have both.

My reason for adding the haemi was adding a liquifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If reavers can move 48 how may units can it get over in it's movement.

All of them, potentially.

Which does not matter at all, because you can only direct your bladevane attacks into one unit per turn.

 ???????? wrote:


Also if he charges you have a flicker field and if the venom is destroyed he is in combat with a tarpit, no overwatch for Mr Marine.

if you assualt a transport and wreck or explode it the models inside a placed 1" away from the assaulting unit, out of combat.

Bumpity bump.

On the topic of conversions/count-as, what do most DE use for razorwings flocks? I kinda want 8 bases of them for a list I'm gonna attempt at some point... So any idea for cool-looking cost-efficient razorwing flocks conversions?

Also, when Baron joined an unit of beast, is he still a jump infantry, or is he now a pseudo-beast? Can he still use HoW? I assumed I'd have to move 6"(moving at the slowest: Baron as infantry), then charge using fleet?

Can't charge after fleet any more.

THe baron doesn't change type. He is still JI, with all the benefits and downsides.

Beasts move 12 these days, so he wouldn't be slowed down any.

Well, what I meant is, as JI, if he moved 12", he'd lose his HoW, so to gain his HoW, he'd have to be moving 6" to get the HoW. And I meant fleet for the reroll, because JI gets to reroll their assault distance w/o fleet... But I guess was kinda silly since I'd be using fleet reroll anyway, since that is the only shared reroll Baron and the beasts have.

His HOW would only be a single S 3 hit with no AP anyway IIRC

Not really worth it.

Very true, but if the situation does arise that I only need to move 6" in the movement phase to get into decent assault distance, it wouldn't hurt to get that I10 S3 hit... You never know, if you're extremely lucky that day, you might get an unsaved wound out of it!

And thanks for the answer.

Not really worth it no, but yes. You could use it.

I mean, if you can get less than 6 inches from your opponent's unit with just a 6 inch move, I don't see why you wouldn't use it. I'm not going to turn down an extra strength 3 attack, even if it is very unlikely to do anything, it's a free bonus. I don't often turn down free bonuses.

Now, you wouldn't wanna risk your charge though. You're better off using your 12" move to get within 2" of the enemy than diddling around 8" and gambling for the best so you can get HoW. The beautiful thing about Baron though is that he does come with fleet, so you can move 12" and still get rerolls to your assault move. I wish Jetbikes came with fleet, but that's just because it would really play into my feint tactics very well.

I usually run 6 razorwing flocks in my beast master list, But if you want to get them a little cheaper than buying 6 razorwing flocks, just buy one and then insta-mold it and use green stuff to make the other 5 that you need. They are all reasonably flat so doing that shouldn't be too complex. You might have to have a few test runs, but that would be one of the cheapest ways of doing that. I guess it depends on how much green stuff you have laying around.

I usually fill my list out with 8 or 10 khymera's as shields against strength 6 shots so my razorwings don't get insta-killed.

I use the Rippers with Wings from Forge World. I've done a very minor conversion, adding multiple round eyes on either side of the face to make them aesthetically similar to the GW Khymerae. It gives the unit a nice cohesive look, and makes more sense from a fluff perspective considering my army's personal story. My Kabal Of The Four Families is an amalgamation of different groups, all having been expelled from the dark city for one reason or another, and the man represented by Baron Sathy on the tabletop made a trek through the webway with his Hellion wing after his banishment and in the dark corners of the webway, he tamed daemonic beasts to supplement his dwindling forces before joining forces with the other families.

Ohh... Instant mold... That IS the cheapest way out there...

Rippers with wings are also nice... For some reason though, I kept imagining that when you said "multiple round eyes", you meant googly eyes stickies, and I just can't help but laugh when I imagine those rippers with them. Not a lot cheaper though, unless I use may be 2 rippers per base or something.

How about if I get a mass of these, do some simple cuttings, then glue on some spare scourges wings or some sorta wings? May be have 2 or 3 per base, would that be about the same size as the GW razorwing flocks model? I'm trying not to stray too far from the original's size so not to be modelling for advantage either by making them smaller(harder to get LoS or something) or larger(provide better cover for other units).

And off topic whining: As I'm collecting necrons as well, I can't help but notice how generous they are with necron kits. Their CCB/AnniBarge kit comes with a free overlord, a single kit can model for both unit, same goes for immortal/deathmark, ghost ark/doomsday, etc... While our ravager is just a raider with 2 more guns, it costs more than a raider and is a seperate kit for some reason!! And the official beastmaster range is a serious scam!!

EDIT: Forgot to say thanks, how rude am I!?

Thanks for the ideas.