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somerandomdude wrote:

 gaovinni wrote:
Reavers got a bit more durable now that the double toughness is gone but that's pretty much all that changed about them.

Not true.

They turboboost 36 inches. This means that they can move 12", then move 36" in the shooting phase. 48" on any turn is nice.

They get Jink, giving them a cover save just for moving, not necessarily turboboosting.

They have Skilled Rider, meaning they completely ignore dangerous terrain.

Also, Skilled Rider adds 1 to the Jink save. So, moving any gives them a 4+ cover, and turboboosting gives them a 3+ cover.

There's a lot that changed about them.

Also, Bladevanes are still nasty, especially when using multiple units.

EDIT: And AP1 is nasty.

Ah. Sorry. Still a bit off with the jetbike rules. Haven't fielded them much... yet.

I'm finding running a naked Haemonculus as my only HQ and hiding him all game behind a building is great. He unlocks Wracks as troops and is cheap. Fulfils the HQ requirement and rarely gives up Slay the Warlord as he is out of LoS (or in reserve).

Drager wrote:
I'm finding running a naked Haemonculus as my only HQ and hiding him all game behind a building is great. He unlocks Wracks as troops and is cheap. Fulfils the HQ requirement and rarely gives up Slay the Warlord as he is out of LoS (or in reserve).

I found the disadvantage with that is he is easy warlord points against any sort of army with mobility (flyers, turboboost attacks, barrage weapons, scouts, fast skimmers etc). It can be a good opportunity for your opponent to get line breaker while he is at it. For example: Slash attacking, bladevaning, or vector striking the haemi on the last turn to get line breaker and a warlord victory point.

Also, I'd still run him with a Hex Rifle even on his own, so he can do something (Possibly with a 3man squad of wracks, with a hex rifle), but ultimately running him as a naked, squishy, 50 point target just seems wasteful to me.

 Exergy wrote:


next time challenge with the haemi. then use the abbveration and archon to try and kill the warboss with precision strikes. It might not work, but you have a better chance than otherwise.

Obivously if you get the charge off, try and put the haemi and archon in contact with the warboss, but nothing else. That way his attacks have to go against one of them.

Thanks for the tip. I'm still a little sketchy on some of the new rules, so that is very handy. I ebayed a mini rulebook and have not received it yet, I can't wait to study it. Challenge rules, precision strikes, flyers, and the new psychic abilities are all at the top of my list.

My dice let me down that game though, I think I was doomed to lose. I had about 18 Lances/Blasters in my list, primarily shooting at my opponent's AV10 trukks. By the end of turn two, I had only destroyed one trukk and had stripped one hull point off another. The one destroyed trukk was on my very first shot of the game, hah. The amount of 1's I rolled defied all math. The strange thing is that I was hitting pretty normal, just could not pen anything.

But, I did get first blood and my opponent's warboss got destroyed by a space elf pirate, so I still had fun.

 Ovion wrote:
Also, I'd still run him with a Hex Rifle even on his own, so he can do something (Possibly with a 3man squad of wracks, with a hex rifle), but ultimately running him as a naked, squishy, 50 point target just seems wasteful to me.

I find the Hexrifle wasteful. I can spend those points better elsewhere. I have rarely given up warlord with this as I play a pure shooting force, mobile enemy units are unlikely to get anywhere near him without being eliminated. Particularly on the last turn. If I think someone will hit him with such an attack I'll just cram him into a transport.

I guess I see the HQ slot as a 50 point upgrade to give Wracks scoring and nothing else. We have no good sooting HQs you see.

I don't find the Hex Rifle wasteful at all, I have used at least 2 in pretty much every game, and I'm probably bumping that up to 4 in 6th.

They've pretty much always paid for themselves, the Hex-Wracks take objectives and snipe out models, usually once a game (that has them) I'll take out a multi-wound model with the Hex effect. (which is a nice bonus), my favourite being when I dropped a 4-wound Tomb Spyder home-brew special character turn 1 with the first shot of the game from a Hex Rifle.

Ok, yes, most of the time they're a 36" range rending splinter rifle, but they generally do well.


I'm actually debating trying a mech-y list, with 6x 3 Wracks w/ a Hex Rifle, 3 in raiders, 3 in venoms, then 3 raiders of Grotesques, throw in a razorwing, maybe some talos and see what happens.

 Ovion wrote:
I don't find the Hex Rifle wasteful at all, I have used at least 2 in pretty much every game, and I'm probably bumping that up to 4 in 6th.

They've pretty much always paid for themselves, the Hex-Wracks take objectives and snipe out models, usually once a game (that has them) I'll take out a multi-wound model with the Hex effect. (which is a nice bonus), my favourite being when I dropped a 4-wound Tomb Spyder home-brew special character turn 1 with the first shot of the game from a Hex Rifle.

Ok, yes, most of the time they're a 36" range rending splinter rifle, but they generally do well.


I'm actually debating trying a mech-y list, with 6x 3 Wracks w/ a Hex Rifle, 3 in raiders, 3 in venoms, then 3 raiders of Grotesques, throw in a razorwing, maybe some talos and see what happens.

Sounds like a fun list. I haven't used the Hexrifle myself, but it sounds like a good try for a bunch of cheap units of wracks as troops and like you said just have them camp out and take pop shots and see if you can't take out a few characters.

Seperate note:

Any list suggestions anyone for taking on a heavy chimera guard army? I know he has 2 vendetta's, I think 6 chimera's, 1 basilisk, and two manticores at 1850. Filled with veterans, and heavy weapon autocannons.

I was thinking about taking:

archon- blaster

4 trueborn- 4 blasters in venom x3

5 wyches- hekatrix w/ venom blade and haywire in venom x4

6 reavers- 2 heatlances, arena champion venom blade

ravager- 3 dark lances x2

void raven- 2 shattershard missiles

I run my venoms with the extra splinter cannon and night shields also, and my raiders and ravagers with night shields and flickerfields.

I'm sure I could have made it more venomy by not taking the reavers but I like them, and they can move 48 inches on turn 1 so hopefully with the other venoms moving up and the ravagers taking out a vehicles or two that they can make it to turn two and hopefully pop a manticore, and hopefully the voidraven can either shoot a vendetta down or take out the other manticore, while the wyches haywire grenade and the trueborn use their blasters on the transports.

That is my theory, I usually don't play this list because I don't like the spamminess of it, but a friend plays that kind of guard list and wants to play, and instead of bringing my normal DE list to get slaughtered, I thought I would try something more competitive.

Well you should run the baron to help with first turn, then get as close as possible to one flank of his army depending on terrain. You need to close the gap so his artillery can't splash all your light transports without endangering his own line and also so the parking lot gets in it's own way and also to reduce the effectiveness of his vendettas so maybe he switches to hover mode which if he falls for it you don't need snap shots to hit them. then your wyches will make a run through his lot even after they lose a few rides. With PGL you can use your wrecks to get great cover as well.

 Ovion wrote:
Also, I'd still run him with a Hex Rifle even on his own, so he can do something (Possibly with a 3man squad of wracks, with a hex rifle), but ultimately running him as a naked, squishy, 50 point target just seems wasteful to me.

I've run a couple games with a hex rifle Haemi joining a squad of Mandrakes in some ruins. He gives them a pain token, so they have their shooting attack, and they give him Stealth and can be 5++ blockers.

Sadly, he has yet to find anything worth shooting, multi-Wound-wise, but the 'drakes have been pretty amazing shooters.

Haemonculus can't join the squad of mandrakes on the first turn as per the infiltrate special rules.

 Lokas wrote:
Haemonculus can't join the squad of mandrakes on the first turn as per the infiltrate special rules.

Sure he can, just not during deployment.

Drager wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
Haemonculus can't join the squad of mandrakes on the first turn as per the infiltrate special rules.

Sure he can, just not during deployment.

What he said. I have the Haemi move to them during the move phase and join up with them then.

Had a great game the other day, where I was experimenting with Pain engines, they are pretty good this edition. If anyone is interested here is the battle report:

BR10: The Black Buzzards VS SM Salamanders - 1500pts

They are still a tad fragile, but 6th has been kind to them in places

Now if only you could start them off with a Pain Token, they'd be used a whole lot more.

I take them anyway, as my DE are a Coven list.

Good to know, I quite like the Talos model and, in general, the coven side of thing. Would really love to get some wracks in, but stupid moneys, why can't I have all of them?

If you use Plague Monks you get 2 full squads for the cost of half a unit.

Mine were built from 2nd ed ork torsos, Dark elf warrion legs and all sorts of gubbins from the bits box for arms, plus spare masks from the talos/cronos kit.

The 'official' ones are ok, but grotesquely overpriced (pun intended)

 Ascalam wrote:
WWP Assaults are now no-go, as is zoom and assault.

We pay extra in points and fragility for our fast vehicles to be able to zoom-drop-assault, but now we can't do that. Ork trukks are in the same boat.

WWP delivery shooty units might be worth a go though.

Our assault units are likely to get shot up a bit more trying to get into assault, and out Pain Engines are now even less able to handle vehicles due to the loss of the 2d6 to pen.

I'll need to read the book, and try a few games to see how the rules interact, but right now it looks like we took a hefty kick in the effectiveness, and had our speciality (speed)handed out to every other army.

All open topped vehicles are assault vehicles, how does this effect Ork Trucks and DE transports negatively?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
From what I recall (and will go check and correct if wrong in a minute)
On a roll of 4+, you get night fight turn 1.
Then at the start of each subsequent turn, on a roll of a 4+ it goes away and you don't need to roll for it again.

This is wrong, it's either on first turn or every subsequent turn AFTER turn 5. The paragraphs are seperated that reference these two things in the night fighting section.

If you want to be able to drop troops and have them assault in the same turn they can only go 6''

The 5th ed standard practise was to zoom 12'' over intervening troops/scenery, drop troops and have them assault.

I grant you that the 2d6 assault can make up for this:

5th: move 12'', disembark 2'', move 6'', (DE run D6'' due to fleet) assault 6'' : 20 '' (21-26 DE)

6th: move 6'', disembark 6'', assault 2d6 '' : 14-24 '' with fleet no longer allowing for extra distance (though the reroll can help)

This IS a downgrade. You have the potential to exceed the 5th ed range for assaulting from an open-topped vehicle, but the average is lower, and the potential low-end is woefully low (14'')

 Ascalam wrote:

I'll need to read the book, and try a few games to see how the rules interact, but right now it looks like we took a hefty kick in the effectiveness, and had our speciality (speed)handed out to every other army.

My advice would be to give the game ago rather then theory hammering things and then claiming the sky is falling. If you haven't had many/any games in 6th it makes sense why you are underestimating fleet.

Fleet is huge this edition, as it lets you re-roll one or more dice, which means your average charge distance with fleet is 9" (57% chance of making a 9" charge). It also makes fleet models a lot more reliable at charging through terrain, the average charge distance through terrain is 8" (52% chance of making a 8" charge). With fleet you have a 93% chance of making a 6" charge in the open and a 82% chance of making a 6" charge through difficult terrain. Finally now you can shoot before assaulting which is great when you assault troops have good BS, plasma grenades, and splinter pistols. As soon as you don't have fleet charging becomes really unreliable making assault units without fleet a liability, so it's not something you should dismiss so casually.

Hope that helps.

Well, I'll bring my DE army back to the table. The first game will be next week.
In this thread, we here a lot about deathstars of Harlie or Grotesque type. The Grotesque deathstar seems viable due to the toughness of the models, FnP, and the models are multi-wound. A Harliestar seems to be more fragile, especially if its a dark one since it cannot be fortuned. I guess that I will stay away from a Harliestar of any type.
By the way, recently, I tried a Seer Council joined by Fuegan against BA and it worked very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you run a deathstar of any type, what kind of fire support do you use?
At the moment I have three Razorwings (awesome models) and I plan to use them. Fire support could come from a Warrior blob, Trueborn, and Venoms. Thoughts?

 Ascalam wrote:
Mine were built from 2nd ed ork torsos, Dark elf warrion legs and all sorts of gubbins from the bits box for arms, plus spare masks from the talos/cronos kit.

The 'official' ones are ok, but grotesquely overpriced (pun intended)

DE warrior torso + heads/ DELF Corsair Arms / Empire Flaggellant Legs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mushkilla wrote:
Finally now you can shoot before assaulting which is great when you assault troops have good BS, plasma grenades, and splinter pistols. As soon as you don't have fleet charging becomes really unreliable making assault units without fleet a liability, so it's not something you should dismiss so casually.
)

Be careful when shooting before you charge, you can end up increasing the charge range required by killing models.

 Exergy wrote:

Be careful when shooting before you charge, you can end up increasing the charge range required by killing models.

In my experience shooting with wyches kills at most 2-3 models, so I haven't had that problem.

Mushkilla wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Be careful when shooting before you charge, you can end up increasing the charge range required by killing models.

In my experience shooting with wyches kills at most 2-3 models, so I haven't had that problem.

2-3 models can be 2-3 inches. I only shoot when I am right on top of the enemy.

Sorry to side track but how do you guys do against flyers? I haven't gotten the chance to face a mass flyer list yet. I'm thinking it shouldn't be to big a problem considering that it's pretty easy to out maneuver them.

Razorwings are good dogfighters, Voidravens are better dogfighters.

Lances / dissies from the ground if they hit will do fine.
Otherwise - same boat as everyone else, needs a gun emplacment of some kind. But ultimately, out own flyers are decent enough for the task.

Mass flyers kind of feth us over. Even if we take 3 Voidravens and an ADL with a quad gun, that's not going to be all that fantastic against 6+ Scythes.

In regards to shooting and then charging.

We could do that last edition too. The reason nobody did was because it was a bad idea. It still is for the most part. Provided your opponent isn't arrayed in a square formation with you impacting a flat side, every base removed is an additional 25mm needed to get into base to base contact to make the charge successful. Maybe less, maybe more depending on how the enemy is spaced.

It's especially dangerous now that charge rolls are random. Before, I could eyeball my six inches and figure if I took out three models I'd still have the charge. Now? Well I know how far I am. I know how far I might be if I kill some models, but can I roll that high? There's too many variables, I don't bother shooting unless I'm already nuts to butts with the enemy.

I have not encountered a mass flyer list so far but I've been taking out enemy fliers with my Razorwing or just lucky hits from the ground troops. If something goes to hover mode though I will not waste the opportunity to take it down.

 gaovinni wrote:
I have not encountered a mass flyer list so far but I've been taking out enemy fliers with my Razorwing or just lucky hits from the ground troops. If something goes to hover mode though I will not waste the opportunity to take it down.

I'm running 3 Razorwings. So no Ravagers for me as they are easier to take down.